Coverage On Ravidassia Sikh Brothers

[jaikaara]

This is painful since our own ravidassia brothers have felt alienated and took steps to establish a distinct identity, our own limbs have been cut. I personally dont blame them since i know how much they have faced and today are able to pick up their bowed heads against caste discrimination.

My link

[kdsingh80]

This is painful since our own ravidassia brothers have felt alienated and took steps to establish a distinct identity, our own limbs have been cut. I personally dont blame them since i know how much they have faced and today are able to pick up their bowed heads against caste discrimination.

My link

Discrimination is no excuse to leave a Religion.Hindu lower castes have been facing it for thousand of years yet there are 250 million hindu SC/ST in India.Muslims too discriminate against each other but I have never heard poor muslims leaving Islam for the sake of discrimnation

[dalsingh101]

Discrimination is no excuse to leave a Religion.Hindu lower castes have been facing it for thousand of years yet there are 250 million hindu SC/ST in India.Muslims too discriminate against each other but I have never heard poor muslims leaving Islam for the sake of discrimnation

You're a proper Indian mate. Always accepting any shite that goes on like it is natural.

[jaikaara]

kd singh sahaab, the reality is the so called lower castes which have been tortured by the so called higher castes have converted and are converting either to christianity in most cases or islam in some.

the high castes are such fools they will someday have to face their karma, history will repeat itself.

Punjab has a good margin of christians some are keshdhari christians, we will have come to the reality.

[kdsingh80]

kd singh sahaab, the reality is the so called lower castes which have been tortured by the so called higher castes have converted and are converting either to christianity in most cases or islam in some.

the high castes are such fools they will someday have to face their karma, history will repeat itself.

Punjab has a good margin of christians some are keshdhari christians, we will have come to the reality.

I know some of them are converting,but basic question what are the numbers at present there are 250 million hindu SC/ST compared to just 30 million total Christians .Ambedkar himself converted to Budhism but large majority of Dalits remained hindu's

[kdsingh80]

You're a proper Indian mate. Always accepting any shite that goes on like it is natural.

So what is your point.Is it O.K to create a mumbo jumbo new REligion with no history and base just to escape discrimination.If they really had faith in sikhism then at best they could have create their seprate Gurdwara's with proper maryada but they prefered to create a new religion which will be counted as Hindu in Indian census.

BTW ashes of their assasinated sant was immersed at Hardwar.Now what does that mean ? If they really believe

they are not hindu's or Sikhs then How Hardwar is holy place for them.

[jaikaara]

i would say even if one brother is lost to a alien faith , its not worth...if he becomes a buddhist he still wont lose much, i have been close to ambekarite buddhists but if christian or muslim, u hae lost him almost forever

[Xylitol]

Discrimination is unjustifiable, but it's sad that people turned bemukh against their own Guru to increase their share of the worldly power pie.

Sikhs in puratan times could have avoided discrimination by converting to Christianity or to Islam. They didn't. Nuff said. No sympathy for deserters to the Guru. I do have sympathy for those sharda wale who are discriminated against and chose to not turn beymukh.

[chatanga1]

You're a proper Indian mate. Always accepting any shite that goes on like it is natural.

KD is right dal singh ji, if a sikh abuses you, you ay gonna run to the mandir/maseet, just to get back at him am ya?

I have always felt this. The Ravidasia community made these seperate changes themselves, not through divine inspiration, and they have wholesale thrown out bana.

Although Im glad they have made a move to go seperate with their own granth, cos they alreaady have thier own jhanda, nishan, ardas etc. At least this way Sikhs wont get upset over the apparent lack of maryada in Ravidasia places of worship, and the Ravidasia dont have to worry about Sikhs get hot and sweaty over lack of maryada.

You have to be in Sikhi for Sikhi, not for yourself.

[dalsingh101]

I don't agree with some of you at all.

Sometimes the lack of understanding/empathy shown in understanding the effects of systematically abusing, putting down and disempowering a people due to some perceived inherent defect you show is staggering. Look at how whites have done it to American natives.

All in all though, I think many of you are just a bunch of conservatives who are unable to use their minds to even imagine a fairer Sikh society. All your doing is blaming the oppressed for rejecting their oppression. The biggest shame is it coming from 'Sikh' sources when so much of our heritage was designed to be against just this type of thing. All some of you do really is excuse the arseholes in our community. If wider society was made up of people like you dark people would still be forced to ride at the back of buses in the US and all that type of crap.

Just so you know, if I was constantly on the receiving end of negative abuse I'd leave whatever community I belonged to for a more fairer one myself. More so if the community i belonged to liked to harp on about its so-called egalitarian nature. But I'm not in that position thankfully but that doesn't mean I can't empathise. I think people like you are exactly why we don't progress as a community and grow. Thanks for that.

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

All in all though, I think many of you are just a bunch of conservatives who are unable to use their minds to even imagine a fairer Sikh society. All your doing is blaming the oppressed for rejecting their oppression.

No mate. I have been personally ejected from a Ramgarhia Gurdwara, becos i couldnt prove i was a tarkhan(i'm not), but i didnt wanna go to the mandir/maseet cos i love sikhi more than i feel those guys are idiots. if i said goodbye to sikhi, how would it effect the tarkhans? it wouldnt, they couldnt give a monkeys, but then the damage to our panth is 2 fold. one by their idiocy, and one by my weakness.

i would love to see a fairer sikh society, beleive me, but that isnt going to happen by leaving the panth, all that means is that the lunatics are completely in control.

There are ways of registering your discontent.

[amardeep]

All your doing is blaming the oppressed for rejecting their oppression.

spot on!

[dalsingh101]

i would love to see a fairer sikh society, beleive me, but that isnt going to happen by leaving the panth, all that means is that the lunatics are completely in control.

So why are you not rightfully focusing on these 'lunatics' instead of their fed up victims? Do you not see that what you are doing is blaming people at the wrong end of the chain of events?

Go the other way to the source of the problem not the outcomes of their lack of humanity.

Plus, if you experienced being ejected from simply visiting a Ramgarhia Gurdwara like you mentioned, you should definitely contact Satkaar or someone about it. I've seen a bit of caste based snobbery in gurdwaras in my time, but never anyone being refused entry over it. Sure people have sneered, made unpleasant comments, purposefully been made to feel uncomfortable etc. but never have I seen any one being told to leave...yet.

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

So why are you not rightfully focusing on these 'lunatics' instead of their fed up victims? Do you not see that what you are doing is blaming people at the wrong end of the chain of events?

Plus, if you experienced being ejected from simply visiting a Ramgarhia Gurdwara like you mentioned, you should definitely contact Satkaar or someone about it.

it was a few years ago, but i got over it. i do focus on these lunatics, but only through gurmat, gurmat gives us the knowledge to make these people look like idiots, but we have to be prepeared to use that knowledge. Knowledge is the sword, but if we drop the sword and run, the problem isnt going to change is it? i mean how have things changed for ravidasias socially since the new religion came out?

[dalsingh101]

it was a few years ago, but i got over it. i do focus on these lunatics, but only through gurmat, gurmat gives us the knowledge to make these people look like idiots, but we have to be prepeared to use that knowledge. Knowledge is the sword, but if we drop the sword and run, the problem isnt going to change is it? i mean how have things changed for ravidasias socially since the new religion came out?

Are you kidding me. Those lunatics don't care a monkeys if you start quoting bani. If anything that makes them laugh. As long as they maintain their perceived superiority they couldn't care less. People have been telling them that this caste thing is against Sikhi for generations - believe you me - still they persist. Try and see yourself if what you are suggesting has any effect on them. I think you'll find in the long run it doesn't. That's the problem with your approach, and all the others that have previously been tried, they are too 'softly softly'.

As for the Ravidasias - do you honestly expect overnight change in their new found freedom from a now blatantly casteist Sikh community? They've only just started. We'll have to wait a few generations before we can assess the impact of their move. One thing seems certain though, with a clearly Jatt dominated 'parbandhak committee' siphoning off fortunes in golak contributions to historical Gurdwaras in Panjab, Ravidasias (or anyone else for that matter) stand a better chance of gathering funds to use for their own communities upliftment going it alone. If (that is) they manage to keep corruption at bay, then they would have a chance of doing positive things for their community with the money they collect. Even forming beautiful new mandirs for themselves would help them as it would be a sign of their own prosperity etc. Otherwise the money they contribute is just going to end up in the plump bellies of the usual suspects in Panjab. They would do well to notice the Delhi 'Parbhadik Committee' too, just to see a good example of another failed breakaway from the SGPC. But that example doesn't really translate well because the Khatri community that seem to dominate that organisation don't really seem to have suffered from the type of poverty and exclusion that other Panjabi groups do? Plus they have a long history of being business men and a solid infrastructure arising from this.

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Are you kidding me. Those lunatics don't care a monkeys if you start quoting bani. That's the problem with your approach, and all the others that have previously been tried, they are too 'softly softly'.

so what are you suggesting, Royal Rumble? Manilla Thriller?

Ravidasias dont have the physical clout to take on jatts. thats too obvious.

they already have split over the new religion anyway, as many ravidasias refused to remove AGGS from their mandirs, and some have denounced the new religion as a political stunt. In our village, the Ravidasias refused to install the new scripture. Some villages have, some not. So they havent got off to a good start. In a few generations they will be the same as us, a few fat basteds in control, with a Dal Ram Ji and a Chatanga Das Ji bickering over what approach to take.

[dalsingh101]

I'm not worried about them. I'm more concerned about the fat farmers sitting in our institutes. Ravidasias have been marginalised for long enough in the panth to have no real power/influence over it. They aren't the ones corrupting our key institutes in our homeland. They aren't doing anything at all if you think about it. So we can eliminate them as some root cause of the burgeoning load of Sikh/Panjab 'issues'. What we can say is that an indeterminate amount of them are trying to break ties with us now. No doubt their exclusion has played a big part in this.

What's the point about talking about what approach to take anyway, when we (as in the majority of the panth across caste) aren't even seeing the same thing. Lumpen sections of jatts are happy as hell with having their own sitting in power regardless of the corruption and non progressive nature of the 'leadership'. That's the first thing that has to be acknowledged in my opinion.

Those people in power are put there by people amongst us whose interests they serve. They don't serve any progressive panthic agenda.

The first thing we need to do is openly identify what the hell it is we are looking at. But some people shy away from this because it is their own people doing it and they don't want to admit it (not talking about about anyone personally here, just generally).

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Ravidasias have been marginalised for long enough in the panth to have no real power/influence over it. They aren't the ones corrupting our key institutes in our homeland.

Ravidasias have never formed more than 6% of the Sikh community so they have never had any power, and have always been marginalised. But having said that, the initial Akali Dal was in the hands of Khatri Sikhs, upto the 1970s with the majority jatts (70%) marginalised.

You talk about corruption, but the ravidasias more or less as a community voted for hindi language in the panjabi suba movement as a way of getting back at jatt sikhs. They have corrupted things in changing sikhi, to suit themselves.

[dalsingh101]

You can say the same about Jatts who have introduced wild drinking to Panjabis and have influenced the other communities with ostentatious shows of wealth/status at weddings etc. which is now leading to some of them committing suicide because they can't keep up the charade. Plus I personally think that nasha loving was the precursor to the rampant drug problem we now see in Panjab. Plenty of Ravidasias voted for Panjabi too by the way. Plus you have to ask, why exactly were some them trying to 'get back at jatts' as you put it. Again, you're looking at the consequences of oppression and not the causal factors of the consequences.

In any case, I don't think it is worth talking about it to you. It's frustrating. You seem to have done exactly what I was talking about before. Saying "but what about x, y, z" doesn't change what is going on right now in our key institutes, bringing out the situation of the 70s (which I don't know of) to somehow use it to play down what is going on today is just weak in my opinion...

If some of my words seem direct and harsh, they are meant to be because I'm so tired of pussyfooting around this topic. It has to be squarely faced by all of us and is too important to worry about ruffling a few feathers over.

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Plenty of Ravidasias voted for Panjabi too by the way.

If some of my words seem direct and harsh, they are meant to be because I'm so tired of pussyfooting around this topic. It has to be squarely faced by all of us and is too important to worry about ruffling a few feathers over.

no the ravidasias did not vote for Panjabi, they were traditional congress i supporters, they voted wholesale against panjabi.

your words are not harsh and direct, and the only pussyfooting you are doing is around the ravidasias, leaving Sikhi becuse of some numbskull jatts. It has to be squarely faced by ALL of us that the ravidasias simply had more love for their political aspirations than they had for sikhi.

If a Sikh can love Sikhi that he can get his body torn apart for it, why cant Ravidasias love it the same way? why not become shaheeds for the guru rather than become bemukhs?

Why not do what Jhabbar did at Akal Takht in the 1920s and force the issue over "low" castes being allowed in?

And FYI the treatment given by jatts to chamars, is the same that chamars give to choohre.

This issue is not about jatts being idiots, but about how quickly ravidasias disowned sikhi, for a made-up religion.

[dalsingh101]

It has to be squarely faced by ALL of us that the ravidasias simply had more love for their political aspirations than they had for sikhi.

I feel the same about those jatts who dominate the Panjabi political scene bringing in their own negative cultural foibles to the panth. Truth is that jatts have a DEEP DEEP long standing hatred of jaats like chuhray/chammars. I've heard my own jat friends going on about this for decades now. So no need for the usual suspects to try and deny it. It's some deep rooted, village level bull that has been going on for God knows how long (preSikh I'm sure), and still continues to this day. Probably over land ownership jealousy and trying to keep advantages in this respect plus that jatt obsession with status.

Anyway, I realise that we will never ever agree and that given how deeply rooted the dynamics involved in this are, I'm not at all surprised that jaats will go and look after their own interests by creating their separate institutes or leaving the faith all together. It's sad but understandable. Kick a person down long enough and they are fools not to leave. Trying to equate external oppression like 'Moghul on Sikh' to caste based 'Sikh on Sikh' oppression is just another madness. What excuse do the Sikhs doing this have exactly?

You keep bringing all this historical stuff when I'm talking about today and tomorrow!

And in every thing you say you just let the people who are really behind the long standing bad blood and supremacist crap off the hook. I'd call it whitewashing. Sometimes, it's our own people who are in the wrong too. The quicker more people realise this the better. In anycase, until we do, I'm sure we will continue to wallow in the petty, rural nightmare we've created for ourselves as a society in our homeland.

Just try and resist the urge to blame outsiders for all our problems. We make plenty of our own.

And FYI the treatment given by jatts to chamars, is the same that chamars give to choohre.

At least here you admit it's going on, albeit in a roundabout way.

I don't ever think we are going to be on the same page on this issue.

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

And in every thing you say you just let the people who are really behind the long standing bad blood and supremacist crap off the hook.

i dont let them off. this isnt what this topic is about. I feel more or less the same about it as you, except that i dont accept that anybody had to leave sikhi becos of the antics of other sikhs.

[HSD1]

Lol, there is a massive disconnect between caste and loyalty. The idea that jatts are responsible for most of the problems is like saying a certain skin tone of sikhs is responsible for other problems. Our leaders are not idiots. They see the writing on the wall - why try and help other sikhs when there are more benefits if you pander to outsiders? Now to those sikhs at the bottom this may sound stupid, but we arent seeing it from the viewpoint of our elders. They know young sikhs will never organise or try to usurp them so they use our docile nature against us. That explains why all the leaders/institutions are f*cked up. I'm not saying that this is all the fault of outsiders because the fact our community produces leaders who are so able to dupe and herd us is our own fault.

As for the rural mentality, well Punjab is all about the agriculture isnt it? No society has ever got over rural issues without industrialisation. History shows this. Why do you think that the americans wanted the germans and japanese to concentrate on farming after WW2? Because a rural people are a backwards people. A backwards people are easily controlled and defeated. Luckily for the germans and japanese the cold war forced america to turn them into strong capitalist allies. Now they are the world's 3rd and 4th largest economies and their people have a high level of safety from external threats or influences. To blame our leaders for being greedy and making the best of a bad situation is not going to solve anything, neither is arguing with one another. Working to remove the bad apples and get people who dont care about caste or colour into power will achieve something.

Blaming it on one group or another just adds to the shit that is already flying among us. I've met khatris who have said some really stupid casteist stuff, as well as people from all castes who declare fair skin is the best thing ever and look down on other sikhs. But what does that have to do with anything?

Edited February 11, 2011 by HSD 2

[kdsingh80]

Luckily for the germans and japanese the cold war forced america to turn them into strong capitalist allies. Now they are the world's 3rd and 4th largest economies are their people have a high level of safety from external threats or influences

And What is the birth rate of these countries? One of the lowest in the world .In next 100-200 years these civilizations may become extinct.What the atom bomb and carpet bombing were unable to do the industrilisation and adoption of liberal value will do

[HSD1]

And What is the birth rate of these countries? One of the lowest in the world .In next 100-200 years these civilizations may become extinct.What the atom bomb and carpet bombing were unable to do the industrilisation and adoption of liberal value will do

lol, the japanese are world leaders in the field of robotics. What is the point of a highly advanced civilization producing millions of people who will be unhappy working in low sector jobs? Introducing robotics reduces the gap between rich and poor as there will be no poor. As for the falling birth rate, this has more to do with the decline in the importance of the family in both those cultures, something which is a core part of sikhi. If we ever turn Punjab into anything that could compare to countries like that (IF!!) then we can overcome problems when they arise. Neither of those countries give incentives to have children, as they would just be a strain on the social infrastructure. Look at Britain where, thanks to Labour, women were given ridiculous perks to have children. Now there isnt even enough money to go round to give them all a good education and healthcare. Germany and Japan dont have these problems.

EDIT: I will bet a sizeable amount of money that any of those of us alive at the end of this century will still live in a world where both of those countries exist. Why? Learn more about both countries to see it.

Edited February 11, 2011 by HSD 2