SikhKhoj Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Why can't you be a Sikh Jatt? Being proud on caste and discriminating on caste is prohibited in Sikhi not saying I am a Sikh belonging to Jatt tribe? Shall we change Gurbani because it calls Guru Amar Dass a 'Bhalla' and Bhagat Ravidas a 'Chamar'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Do I really have to answer your question, SikhKhoj? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 the fourth guru is often refered to as 'sodhi sache-patshah'. the 10th guru also refers to himslef in DG as a sodhi. Would that be surname or caste based? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) How much more explicitly do you need it to be said? ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ ॥ Do not be proud of your social class and status, you ignorant fool! ਇਸੁ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ So much corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause|| ਚਾਰੇ ਵਰਨ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ Everyone says that there are four castes, four social classes. ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ They all emanate from the drop of God's Seed. The sooner people stop identifying with caste based identities the better. The list of crap that comes with this is enormous. Edited June 13, 2011 by dalsingh101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) A question for all those who are proud of their caste: What exactly are you proud of? I can understand that people back then divided themselves into groups based on their professions; i.e. farmers were jatts, carpenters were ramgarhia/tarkhan, low caste people (chure, chamar, chir) used to clean people's houses and the naalis at the streets, but nowadays we see people saying "I'm so proud of my caste blah blah blah", but how can you be proud of a profession/something you aren't? If a farmer is proud of his work, if a carpenter is proud of his work etc. I'd say okay, but if you are some spoiled kid living in UK, US, Europe or India for that sake saying I'm proud of my jatt tribe/background, singing baqwaas jatt songs, jatts are so cool, we are the best etc. you're just messed up! The jatt thing is just an example, it could be any caste. It's like saying "for generations my family have been doctors, I'm a shopkeeper but I'm so proud of my doctor ancestors". This is one of the reasons why our community is messed up! People in Punjab and Punjabis in general look down on chamars, chure and chir because their caste used to clean toilets and now we see apne standing in lines waiting for some gora to give them a job as a toilet cleaner at Heathrow airport or anywhere else. Where's their pride/dignity when they come to Europe, or do you "forget" everything once you've left Punjab and when you come back to Punjab on vacation you act like you are some king who's too superior to everyone else. Okay I know this is off-topic, I'm just so fed up with our people and their double standards. The toilet cleaning is just an example. There's nothing wrong with cleaning toilets. It's a job like any other jobs. But what makes me angry is the double standards our people have. Look down on people who do it in Punjab and then you go abroad and do it yourself for a living. Edited June 13, 2011 by G.Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 asd will be really happy when he come back and see that people are discussing toilet cleaning in the thread he created for finding a rishtaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 asd will be really happy when he come back and see that people are discussing toilet cleaning in the thread he created for finding a rishtaa LOL such is sa.com. maybe thats what are elders mean when they say that a person is tooo educated?. He'll talk about everything under the sun but not the matter at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well, if I couldn't 'pull' I'm not sure if the Internet is a good place to find a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 LOL such is sa.com. maybe thats what are elders mean when they say that a person is tooo educated?. He'll talk about everything under the sun but not the matter at hand. reading back ,I must clarify: the sa.com'ers are too educated. asd asks a question but didn't get a straightforward response. Though this site is good if you want to dissect a question/subject in a freudian manner. So the matters is settled; this is not the place to find or get advice on finding a kar-wali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) How good is the internet for that Surya? What sort of factors effect the kar vali nailing situation anyway? Whether we like it or not (to me it seems) stuff like looks, finances, family reputation, personality and unique family eccentricities play the biggest part. Unless someone is going to broadcast personal details like these over cyber space for people to evaluate is it even possible to give a honest answer to the question of why you might be having difficulties in that department? I think people on the forum are probably mature and honest enough (with themselves), to know that they really can't answer the question straight out like some people may desire. What approach to take? If a significant part of the equation is along the lines of attributes mentioned above, then one strategy could be to evaluate yourself along these (or get someone trusted to do this) and then try and optimise your 'desirability' factor along them. That is a very material way of looking at it I know, but at least it gives you some points to take action along. But even this is a flawed because how objective can a person honestly get about things that strike so close to our most intimate self perceptions and insecurities? Edited June 13, 2011 by dalsingh101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Using a family name is not wrong, nor is saying that I come from a Jatt background. The problem is when you start saying I am a Jatt, you are Chamar, so I am better than you; you don't have same rights as me. See all the problems caused by letting family name fall away, you will get thousands of Gurpreet Singhs. This has been a problem in Canada, where if I'm not mistaken, they have banned the use of Singh or Kaur only as surname. It will be difficult to ascertaint wheter you are marrying someone from your own 'blood' or not if nobody uses family names. Pind names can be used but it is not an indicator for blood relations though. Baaki soch apo apni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Using a family name is not wrong, nor is saying that I come from a Jatt background. The problem is when you start saying I am a Jatt, you are Chamar, so I am better than you; you don't have same rights as me. I understand what you are saying but the ground level reality is that the use of surnames and caste identity lends itself to the very nonsense that holds Sikh society back. So idealistic speaking doesn't cut it. If humans (especially Panjabi Sikhs) seem so preoccupied with differentiating themselves along these lines and then ruining their own society with it, at what point do we turn around and say 'enough is enough'? Just explaining that discrimination is wrong is absolutely ineffectual, more stronger measures need implementing and enforcing. That much is obvious. The lesson seems to be that people don't do the right thing willingly, you have to cajole or slap them into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipledgeblue Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) Do you consider yourself a Sikh or a jatt? Remember you can't be both at the same time Do you understand why Singh's can wear shorts/pants and a t-shirt (which don't cover their legs or arms) and women can't? Why the double standards? Well actually I am sikh, which is a disciple as opposed to Sikh with a capital S which stretches it to the world major religion meaning. Of course if I cannot be a jatt following the Guru, then you are welcome to kick me out of Gurdwara Sahib when I try and do Matha Tek right? Or you could write to Akal Takht, there must be more things to do? Is there a punishment for a jatt to follow Guru Sahib? (Do they take jatts to Chandi Chowk and behead them if they refuse to accept a religion and forsake jatt culture/dharam?) If Guru ji has problem with us being jatts, Guru ji will sort us out, you don't need to stress yourself, there are better things to do in the panth. As if Dharam Raj or Jamdhoot or whoever else cares if I call myself jatt, sikh,jatt sikh, gursikh or the King of the Pirates? IF you don't like jatt sikhs then run off back to SS site! Have some multicultural variety in your life, otherwise just wear a Burkha and live in Taliban occupied Afghanistan territories, you will probably love the monoculturalism, no caste, just one religion and one caste; Allah Hu Akbar! Well you see Singhs wore pugh but at same time might not have covered the whole body, but men aren;t meant to be modest; so do these sikhnis in turban not believe in the indian cultural modesty? So its more about turban and less about dharam? Forget the cultural dharam and just wear turban anyway? In my eyes, when I see a woman wear pugh I expect to see it worn for same reason chunni would be worn. I have no idea what is going through modern sikh kuris heads! I need to get married very very soon but I feel like running away from these kuris... Edited June 13, 2011 by londondajatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipledgeblue Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) Using a family name is not wrong, nor is saying that I come from a Jatt background. The problem is when you start saying I am a Jatt, you are Chamar, so I am better than you; you don't have same rights as me. See all the problems caused by letting family name fall away, you will get thousands of Gurpreet Singhs. This has been a problem in Canada, where if I'm not mistaken, they have banned the use of Singh or Kaur only as surname. It will be difficult to ascertaint wheter you are marrying someone from your own 'blood' or not if nobody uses family names. Pind names can be used but it is not an indicator for blood relations though. Baaki soch apo apni. Well some sikh backgrounds (I know about Afghani bhapas, are they khatris?) believe in cousin marriage anyway. Perhaps by forgetting surnames and castes we can assimilate all the tribal/caste dharam/cultures into one set of culture/dharam where cousin marriages are normal?????????????? Of course that would also make me feel like a Mughal emperor, assimilation yummy Hail Hitler? Edited June 13, 2011 by londondajatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 there is nothing wrong with using last names. even Guru were addressed with last name in Guru Granth Sahib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 there is nothing wrong with using last names. even Guru were addressed with last name in Guru Granth Sahib. Okay but what do you make of the significance of Guru's at the close of their human stewardship creating a Khalsa which replaced these with a generic 'Singh'. What was the intention/purpose of this and what are the implications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 World is truly a tamasha! Some people want to get married and can't find rishtey, i didn't want to get married and had rishtey coming at me left right and centre. You'd be amazed at what some people consider to be 'practising Amritdhari', lol. At the end of the day, it's in Guru Ji's hands. Even the poeple we see on the streets are seen due to the game of sanjog that is pre-written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well actually I am sikh, which is a disciple as opposed to Sikh with a capital S which stretches it to the world major religion meaning. Of course if I cannot be a jatt following the Guru, then you are welcome to kick me out of Gurdwara Sahib when I try and do Matha Tek right? Or you could write to Akal Takht, there must be more things to do? Is there a punishment for a jatt to follow Guru Sahib? (Do they take jatts to Chandi Chowk and behead them if they refuse to accept a religion and forsake jatt culture/dharam?) If Guru ji has problem with us being jatts, Guru ji will sort us out, you don't need to stress yourself, there are better things to do in the panth. As if Dharam Raj or Jamdhoot or whoever else cares if I call myself jatt, sikh,jatt sikh, gursikh or the King of the Pirates? IF you don't like jatt sikhs then run off back to SS site! Have some multicultural variety in your life, otherwise just wear a Burkha and live in Taliban occupied Afghanistan territories, you will probably love the monoculturalism, no caste, just one religion and one caste; Allah Hu Akbar! Well you see Singhs wore pugh but at same time might not have covered the whole body, but men aren;t meant to be modest; so do these sikhnis in turban not believe in the indian cultural modesty? So its more about turban and less about dharam? Forget the cultural dharam and just wear turban anyway? In my eyes, when I see a woman wear pugh I expect to see it worn for same reason chunni would be worn. I have no idea what is going through modern sikh kuris heads! I need to get married very very soon but I feel like running away from these kuris... There's no such thing as casteism in Sikhism, you just gotta accept that. Are you Amritdhari? If yes, do you remember what the Panj Pyare told you about caste? If you aren't, then you need to read Rehat, the teachings given by Panj Pyare regarding caste and Gurbani. There are many Shabads mentioning you shouldn't be proud of your caste. Perhaps you could answer my questions earlier in this topic; what exactly are you proud of? Are you a farmer or some spoiled kid living in London who got nothing to do with agriculture and still proud of call yourself "jatt"? I'm not worrying about you, I'm just tired of people who are proud of their caste and talk baqwaas on forums. Run back to SS site? Why? Is this yours or your dad's forum? Is this forum run by jatt's? I don't know what world you're living in, have you ever heard of azhara people and the way they get treated in Afghanistan? Have you ever heard of the caste-system in Afghanistan? I don't have a problem with different cultures, but I do have a problem with who are obsessed with their caste and think they're superior to everyone else. Men aren't meant to be modest? So men can walk around half-naked, that's okay according to "Indian culture"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) World is truly a tamasha! Some people want to get married and can't find rishtey, i didn't want to get married and had rishtey coming at me left right and centre. Okay, just because you are a little bit sexy and that, no need to rub it in our faces. lol You can see a genuine picture of me on the left btw! Edited June 13, 2011 by dalsingh101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 World is truly a tamasha! Some people want to get married and can't find rishtey, i didn't want to get married and had rishtey coming at me left right and centre. You'd be amazed at what some people consider to be 'practising Amritdhari', lol. At the end of the day, it's in Guru Ji's hands. Even the poeple we see on the streets are seen due to the game of sanjog that is pre-written. Care to explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikhism2-cont.asp Caste and Sikhism: Sikhism does not inculcate belief in caste. No man is born great or low. Guru Amardas says, "All colours and forms are thine." Guru Arjan Sahib gives the simile of the potter. The clay has been moulded in different forms. All men are the vessels of God. People may follow different faiths or divide themselves under different labels, but essentially man is one and indivisible. Whoever meditates on God becomes as great as He. Look at Ravidas the cobbler, Sadhna the butcher, Saina the barber. They were raised to the pedestal of saintliness and honoured by all. Just as the philosopher's stone transmutes iron ore into gold, in the same way God's name changes a low-born person into a Bhagat. God's name cleanses and purifies. It burns away all impurity. A person of high caste is worse than one of the lowest caste if he does not meditate on the Name. Moreover, caste is of no consequ-ence in the next world. In God's Court, men shall be judged by their thoughts and deeds, and not by their family or pedigree. The Guru brought the four castes under one banner. And yet he taught us to be humble and poor in spirit, because with-out it, we cannot sublimate egoism(humai). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Yes londonjatt, most Afghani Sikhs are Khatris, who do intermarry, but that is not right biologically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Yes londonjatt, most Afghani Sikhs are Khatris, who do intermarry, but that is not right biologically. What could be a bigger attack on inbreeding and help widen the gene pool amongst us than intercaste marriages anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Yes londonjatt, most Afghani Sikhs are Khatris, who do intermarry, but that is not right biologically. Maybe thats why they are soooo teeny weeeny cutsie small people?! BTW are khatris same as khashatris ie the warriors/ruler caste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Or how about this guys, why dont sikhs marry other sikhs because they like them, not due to caste/creed/colour or facial hair. In order to do this you're going to have to get out there and mix with people, not wait for Waheguru's Hukam to throw someone into your lap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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