Are Sikhs Becoming Too Liberal?

[dalsingh101]

It is inappropriate to dress in this way and talk about religion.

The dress she is wearing gives off a certain impression which is sexually arousing.

I have to say. I took the time to have a look at the picture to test what you are saying and did not feel any sexual arousal whatsoever myself. So maybe what you are saying is a subjective thing more than universal?

Then in fairness we must also point out the brothers who like to hit the gym and then wear 'tight fitted' clothes to show off their dolay and that. I'm sure some girls must feel a bit aroused by that, but no one condemns the boys.

Edited June 15, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

Dalsingh ,HSD

It looks to me that you people are not understanding What people are saying.It is not about how sikh women dress in private,neither it is about letting out inner slut because I am an Indian.It is about wearing clothes when you are invited for speaking on Sikhism.Public and private life are different things ,the girl can wear anything she wants in her private life but why she needs to dress in that way when she is speaking on Sikhism publically and especially when she is related to sikhcoalition

Dalsingh as far your point of men showing dolay may provoke girls ,then please show me any sikh that is wearing tight t shirts and showing dolay while at the same time He is speaking publically on Sikhism

[laalsingh]

Then in fairness we must also point out the brothers who like to hit the gym and then wear 'tight fitted' clothes to show of their dolay and that. I'm sure some girls must feel a bit aroused by that, but no one condemns the boys.

Good.

If it has been few days since , I get aroused by some names sometimes or a just a glimpse of face. And there are other times nothing can flinch me.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

I have to say. I took the time to have a look at the picture to test what you are saying and did not feel any sexual arousal whatsoever myself. So maybe what you are saying is a subjective thing more than universal?

So you would be happy for female members of your family to dress in this way?

Sorry for being provocative but what you say does not make sense. Man is made to be attracted to woman. There is an art known as shringaar or eroticism when women will dress in ways to stimulate men. This is all well and good in its correct sphere of usage. This lady is dressed in a way that most males would find very attractive. The image she is giving out by wearing this dress is not in harmony with what she is talking about. This is an issue of correct manners. It is akin to mixing whisky with pure milk.

Most western people have become dense and thick with regards to what things are correct and incorect. A normal pendu is on higher level then most westerners because they still have inherent morality and instinctively know good from bad, even though because of prevelant trends and internal weakness they follow the bad. Westerners have had this organ of natural morality removed and they think this is a real advance because they are not affected by things as simple people are. Well i say westerners aren't affected by things because they have become dense and thick, but in a clever way. The mental organ of westerners has become insenstive or desensitized, which is why they cannot perceive wrong things, because they are not sufficently aware of their own surroundings, they live in an intellectual mist, and their feelings are atrophied. Morality and manners come predominantly from feelings not intellectualisations.

[SURYADEV]

I think sikhs became too liberal when we started boozing too much; enough to prop up the brewing industry! When we started eating too much and started getting the permanently pregnent look - amongst ladies and men! When we started thinking that our gurdwaras are also our businesses, and are our WWF wrestling rings or personal fiefdoms. An Englishmans home is his castle; but a sikhs home and gurdwara is also his own castle

Really...her dress code should be as objectionable to us as our pot bellied gianis and committee walas who can't or won't answer questions on basic sikh philosophy and the other dubious 'community leaders' who also represent us as sikhs to the wider world.

[Mithar]

So you would be happy for female members of your family to dress in this way?

Sorry for being provocative but what you say does not make sense. Man is made to be attracted to woman. There is an art known as shringaar or eroticism when women will dress in ways to stimulate men. This is all well and good in its correct sphere of usage. This lady is dressed in a way that most males would find very attractive. The image she is giving out by wearing this dress is not in harmony with what she is talking about. This is an issue of correct manners. It is akin to mixing whisky with pure milk.

Most western people have become dense and thick with regards to what things are correct and incorect. A normal pendu is on higher level then most westerners because they still have inherent morality and instinctively know good from bad, even though because of prevelant trends and internal weakness they follow the bad. Westerners have had this organ of natural morality removed and they think this is a real advance because they are not affected by things as simple people are. Well i say westerners aren't affected by things because they have become dense and thick, but in a clever way. The mental organ of westerners has become insenstive or desensitized, which is why they cannot perceive wrong things, because they are not sufficently aware of their own surroundings, they live in an intellectual mist, and their feelings are atrophied. Morality and manners come predominantly from feelings not intellectualisations.

excellent post.

In regards to what KDS is saying, he has also made a good point. If she wants to dress that way in her private life or at work then fine, but when talking about a subject related to Sikhism, she as a Sikh woman should at least have the sense to dress appropriately. Strangely even white women will not dress like that when talking about Sikhism. I have seen Nagar Kirtans and Gurdwaras through out Canada inviting women politicians from the white community to speak on special occasions and even they don't dress like that. What is wrong with apneean?

[dalsingh101]

I don't know if she was talking about Sikhism or Feminism myself, it says:

Neesha and Tejpreet talked about their questioning of the role of women within Sikhism from a very young age. Neesha put it very succinctly: “When they said ‘it’s a girl’ – that’s when the shit started.” They questioned the contradictory role of women, between what they saw around them and what they were told was written in the Guru Granth Sahib. They questioned segregation of the sexes at the Gurdwara, why women were not allowed to sing at Harminder Sahib, and the double standards at home: why their brothers were allowed freedoms that they were not, like going out late with friends, or wearing certain clothes. Neesha also made a rather interesting parallel between Catholicism and Sikhism. In the former, there is the threat of the fiery pits of hell if women don’t conform to living according to the mores of a patriarchal society. In Sikhism, there is no such language because while that was the society every single one of our Gurus lived in, they knew that it wasn’t the right one. And this is reflected in the wisdom of Gurbani, the concepts of which are still ahead of our time today.

Also:

The last question they were asked was whether they would use the word “feminist” to describe themselves. Neesha and Tejpreet had no qualms with the term and felt it embodied their values and what they believed.

The problem with desi people is that they don't understand the impact that growing up in the west has on females. So whilst they condemn Tejpreet types, they never seem to produce workable solutions to preventing the westernisation of apneean. Sure, a part of it is simply down to the ਅਸਰ of growing up in liberal western societies, but clearly a significant component is a result of Panjabi patriarchal dominance and perceived hypocritical treatment towards daughters compared to sons. That seems to make a few jump on the feminist wagon.

Don't just complain - produce and embody solutions as well. We are going to have more of these types in future, not less whether we like it or not. If you feel it is an issue, how do you think it can be contained?

Edited June 15, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

I'm just waiting to an apnee to turn up on one of those 'slut walks' next. lol

Edited June 15, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

There is no solution.

Kaj rau hai anjum

when the stars become angry towards us it is best to sit in the earth and pour dust on our heads and utter cries of lamentation.

A machine is wound up, it cannot be unwound but must complete its movement.

Only pure tyagis who are out of maya can influence maya and do things

Anything else is just an unconscious movement of the machine, dictated by external accidents.

The whole world moves in chakers

which is why the movement always turns into its opposite.

Movements for peace turn into wars

Movements to un-westernise apneean will cause more westernised apneean

To complete a movement in a straight line you have to be a Siddha, which means 'he who completes his aim'

If you are not a Siddh Purush then you will always go in circles in chakers. The thing you want to accomplish will turn into its opposite. This is the rule.

Sometimes an aim will be achieved but this will be by accident not conscious design.

[Mithar]

There is no solution.

Kaj rau hai anjum

when the stars become angry towards us it is best to sit in the earth and pour dust on our heads and utter cries of lamentation.

A machine is wound up, it cannot be unwound but must complete its movement.

Only pure tyagis who are out of maya can influence maya and do things

Anything else is just an unconscious movement of the machine, dictated by external accidents.

The whole world moves in chakers

which is why the movement always turns into its opposite.

Movements for peace turn into wars

Movements to un-westernise apneean will cause more westernised apneean

To complete a movement in a straight line you have to be a Siddha, which means 'he who completes his aim'

If you are not a Siddh Purush then you will always go in circles in chakers. The thing you want to accomplish will turn into its opposite. This is the rule.

Sometimes an aim will be achieved but this will be by accident not conscious design.

Always love reading your posts. Such deep thoughts.

[dalsingh101]

There is no solution.

Kaj rau hai anjum

when the stars become angry towards us it is best to sit in the earth and pour dust on our heads and utter cries of lamentation.

A machine is wound up, it cannot be unwound but must complete its movement.

Only pure tyagis who are out of maya can influence maya and do things

Anything else is just an unconscious movement of the machine, dictated by external accidents.

The whole world moves in chakers

which is why the movement always turns into its opposite.

Movements for peace turn into wars

Movements to un-westernise apneean will cause more westernised apneean

To complete a movement in a straight line you have to be a Siddha, which means 'he who completes his aim'

If you are not a Siddh Purush then you will always go in circles in chakers. The thing you want to accomplish will turn into its opposite. This is the rule.

Sometimes an aim will be achieved but this will be by accident not conscious design.

So your message is to take no action because we can do nothing? Seems a bit defeatist, though I do get your sentiment about ill conceived attempts having an opposite effects to the desired ones.

So we just have to sit there and watch apneean become gorian then.....

Edited June 15, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

So your message is to take no action because we can do nothing?

No not at all, but if we realise we can do nothing, then everything that needs to be done gets done. This is karam yog, easy for me to write about but very difficult to put into action. Basically from what little i know the higher has to come into the lower. Imagine a world full of two types of people, one type blind and the others cripples who cant move. The cripples know where to go but cannot move and the blind people don't know where to go but can move. The blind people can 'do things' but for their actions to have meaning they must be directed by the inert cripples who have vision. But because all the cripples are shouting at the blind people "go left" "go right" etc. the blind get confused and follow contradictory instructions. But it sometimes happens a blind person grabs a cripple with vision and puts him on his shoulders. Now the blind person has a personal guide who can tell him how to get things, by directly whipsering instructions in his ear. So instead of aimlessly wandering about trying to get fruit from a tree by listening to the shouting of contradictory instructions, the man with the cripple on his shoulders goes directly to the fruit.

[dalsingh101]

Okay but you've totally discounted the potential effects of 'social engineering'.

A large part of apneean being like this is because of the social engineering of goray. They create a lot of subtle pressures and inducements for it both material and psychological. It stands to reason that if apnay ever organised and used similar principles properly themselves they too could (in all likelihood) create/mould a society broadly along the lines they wish to see it.

Edited June 15, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

Okay but you've totally discounted the potential effects of 'social engineering'.

A large part of apneean being like this is because of the social engineering of goray. They create a lot of subtle pressures and inducements for it both material and psychological. It stands to reason that if apnay ever organised and used similar principles properly themselves they too could (in all likelihood) create/mould a society broadly along the lines they wish to see it.

Forget about apneean what about men ,SPN,Sikhchic,TLH even on SS and SA I encountered more men who believe in extreme gender similarity .They have been brainwashed so much by western society that they developed attitude don't say anything against woman .If a Girl comes to a site about what career to choose they just say do what you want even if she wants to enter dancing modeling,I several time ask them if you give this advice then what advice will give you to a sikh boy who wants to become hero or something for which he has to abandon his turban,most of time there is defening silence.

I must say that i appreciate muslim men which has not sacrificed their masculinity and are not get brainwashed by this Liberal gender similiarity,is it any wonder all over the world There thousands of cases Non muslim women running with them

Edited June 15, 2011 by kdsingh80

[Mithar]

Forget about apneean what about men ,SPN,Sikhchic,TLH even on SS and SA I encountered more men who believe in extreme gender similarity .They have been brainwashed so much by western society that they developed attitude don't say anything against woman .If a Girl comes to a site about what career to choose they just say do what you want even if she wants to enter dancing modeling,I several time ask them if you give this advice then what advice will give you to a sikh boy who wants to become hero or something for which he has to abandon his turban,most of time there is defening silence.

I must say that i appreciate muslim men which has not sacrificed their masculinity and are not get brainwashed by this Liberal gender similiarity,is it any wonder all over the world There thousands of cases Non muslim women running with them

I totally agree. Sikh men have become so liberal and outright fudus(sorry, but it's true). It is not uncommon to see Sikh men defending and supporting homosexuality as being an okay thing to do for Sikhs. I think the biggest threat to Sikhi today is western liberalism. It's like we are becoming liberal for all the wrong things such as loose moral(slutty) character of our girls, while the things that we should become liberal about such as caste we are not loosening up on that issue.

[dalsingh101]

It's like we are becoming liberal for all the wrong things such as loose moral(slutty) character of our girls, while the things that we should become liberal about such as caste we are not loosening up on that issue.

These two things are often related from my experience. Too often I've seen ambitious Sikh girls think 'forget all that crap' when they witness the plain backward, obstacle course that comes with simply being with a Sikh man of their choice. There are almost invariably complicated family issues like dodgy suss's or objections on the stupidest of pretexts (i.e. caste), then they feel the men are too controlling etc. etc. so what do they do? They take the easy option and go with a gora who lets them do what they want and not only that, they get an extra hand up in their careers as well for joining the 'team'.

A big aspect of this is Sikhs being able to create an economy where women can progress and achieve their career objectives in a positive way and not have to sell out to get ahead. I can't even imagine our penducentric community even thinking on these big scales.

Plus lets face it. If you are going to educate your daughter she is unlikely to view her existence as one of raising children and looking after the home. These days it is infinitely easier for an attractive 'exotic' female to get ahead in industry in the west. They can quickly and easily make more money than a bloke. In the meanwhile our lot just carry on like the apelike man who is just behind the homosapien in the famous Darwinian picture of man's evolution.

Under these circs I might not like what they are doing, but it doesn't surprise me that they do it. What are Sikh men offering Sikh women these days in terms of opportunities? Seriously, answer that. Because that all comes into play.

Instead we sit around like fudoos complaining with no big plan of our own.

Edited June 15, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

I totally agree. Sikh men have become so liberal and outright fudus(sorry, but it's true). It is not uncommon to see Sikh men defending and supporting homosexuality as being an okay thing to do for Sikhs. I think the biggest threat to Sikhi today is western liberalism. It's like we are becoming liberal for all the wrong things such as loose moral(slutty) character of our girls, while the things that we should become liberal about such as caste we are not loosening up on that issue.

Yes you are right ,as my brother is working in Software company and he always tell me love stories mostly about Hindu's of different castes,80% of these love stories end as their parents don't agree but I don't know what is wrong with Sikh parents their daughter tell them she is in love with non sikh boy and they just agree.Sometimes I feel the traditional society in which was raised was never their ,inside most of Sikhs a Liberal gora is sitting who just want to come out when he/she gets a chance

[kdsingh80]

Under these circs I might not like what they are doing, but it doesn't surprise me that they do it. What are Sikh men offering Sikh women these days in terms of opportunities? Seriously, answer that. Because that all comes into play.

And what does Hindu or Muslim men offer to Sikh women which sikh men can't offer.They even rob their religion off

[dalsingh101]

And what does Hindu or Muslim men offer to Sikh women which sikh men can't offer.They even rob their religion off

I don't about the former but the latter have retained their masculinity and have a deep understanding of female psychology by the looks of it.

From what I see of Hindus in the UK they are infinitely more open and warm to outsiders than Sikhs, maybe this plays a part too.