Clamp Down At Gurdwara

[dalsingh101]

They seemed to be having a clamp down on all the nonSikhs who come and eat langar without showing maharaj respect by mutha teking at the Gurdwara today.

One Hindi speaking Muslim guy was blatantly trying to avoid it and trying not to.

Some people must think we are proper mugs. lol

[kdsingh80]

In which Gurdwara?

[dalsingh101]

In which Gurdwara?

Let's just say an East London one. I wont give more details because I'd feel I'm being cyber stalked them. lol

[kdsingh80]

To be frank I don't mind if they do clamp down on Non sikhs.In non sikhs dominated area's many people just take advantage of langar and start treating Gurdwara's as their eating joints without having any respect for Sikhism or Sikhs

[Mithar]

To be frank I don't mind if they do clamp down on Non sikhs.In non sikhs dominated area's many people just take advantage of langar and start treating Gurdwara's as their eating joints without having any respect for Sikhism or Sikhs

I understand what you are saying. But, we need to realize the fact that a Gurdwara is "Guru dha Ghar" (house of the Guru). If a Sikh comes to the Guru's house, he is a devotee. But if a non-Sikh comes to the Gurdwara he is a guest of the Guru. And the guest/mehmaan of the Guru should be treated with all the respect from Sikhs that a guest deserves. I could be wrong, but this is the way I see it.

Bhagat Pooran Singh Jee of the Pingalwara is an example we should try to remember. He was born a Hindu. But as a young boy he went to the Mandir and noticed how he was always hungary and never received any hospitality from the Mandir or it's Pandit. Then when he went to the Gurdwara he was given respect by the Granthi and also given all to eat until his stomach was full. This incident inspired him to become a Sikh of the Guru. And look what a great Sikh he ended up becoming that Sikhs to this day remember him, in fact I would say he can easily be counted amongst the greatest Sikhs of the 20th century.

A non-Sikhs(no matter how rich or poor) should be given all the respect we can give them when he come to a Gurdwara. Who knows maybe that non Sikh might become another Bhagat Pooran Singh Jee.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Mithar

[jaikaara]

yea , i feel rather than making it a issue which has no end , its better to let them have the langar which is blessed with Ardas to the Guru. Guess what it would be haraam to a staunch muslim since its blessed with the Naam of Waheguru and not allah !

I have seen muslims do this mainly, we have langar distribution at the hospital here and in the queue there r many muslims, but as you say bhai ji Waheguru bolo langar shako, the hindu will say waheguru and in fact at times give out the jaikaara too, i m still to come across a muslim who will say Waheguru.

I have been to hospitals managed by hindu trusts, the free medicine counter will have muslims pouring, they dont mind the medicine from a idol worshipper as long as its free !

inspite of all this, i would say he is human too, someday the langar shakna will change his attitude.

[laalsingh]

That is good question, is langar for everybody or just sikhs and people who respect sikhs?

I think It is should be for every hungry one. Let them keep hating and eat langar. How long can they do it?

[kdsingh80]

But if a non-Sikh comes to the Gurdwara he is a guest of the Guru. And the guest/mehmaan of the Guru should be treated with all the respect from Sikhs that a guest deserves. I could be wrong, but this is the way I see it.

A person who is mehman also have to follow some maryada.Tell me if a person enter a house and just go and sit on table without saying SSA to anybody then how the family feels.Also I am not against person should not be given langar if he enters 1st or even 10 th time ,but what if he makes Gurdwara his eating joint without even respecting sikhism or Sikhs?

Also we all know that practical and theoritical life is very different.What if Gurdwara is short of resources and because of these freebie eaters original sangat return without having Langar?

Bhagat Pooran Singh Jee of the Pingalwara is an example we should try to remember. He was born a Hindu. But as a young boy he went to the Mandir and noticed how he was always hungary and never received any hospitality from the Mandir or it's Pandit. Then when he went to the Gurdwara he was given respect by the Granthi and also given all to eat until his stomach was full. This incident inspired him to become a Sikh of the Guru. And look what a great Sikh he ended up becoming that Sikhs to this day remember him, in fact I would say he can easily be counted amongst the greatest Sikhs of the 20th century.

Bhagat pooran singh ji could be an exception ,we cannot make our policies on the basis of exceptions.

IN last 100 years millions of people (non sikh) benefitted from langar but how many embraced sikhism or even supported sikhs in turbulent times?

[dalsingh101]

That is good question, is langar for everybody or just sikhs and people who respect sikhs?

I think It is should be for every hungry one. Let them keep hating and eat langar. How long can they do it?

Don't be naive about how bereft of warmth some hearts can be. Certain people would happily eat and have no respect for Sikhs/Sikhi, considering us fools.

Not that we should get all hawkish because of this.

Some south Indians don't seem to have a clue. There is a door from the diwan to the langar hall and they will walk through without covering their head and have to be told to do so.

At the end of the day the langar is gift from the Guru, I can't help but think that we need to be careful about getting petty in reaction to other people's pettiness. But a clear message does need to be sent to others to let them know that we are not easily manipulated fools.

[dalsingh101]

Today I realised that some of those South Indians simply don't have a clue about Sikh protocol and are not being arses. I think they have to be shown how to mutha tek.

Because a few was sitting there in the divan and after I mutha teked they got up and did it. It was like they saw how it was done and then did it.

I REALLY think we should be using the Dasam Granth for parchaar towards such people (as I hear it is closer to the Hindi they understand).

A part of me is very happy that Guru ji's institute still helps feed the needy and vulnerable.

As a famous folk singer put it, we are getting the interest on that investment Baba Nanak made with his sacha sauda.

[kdsingh80]

Today I realised that some of those South Indians simply don't have a clue about Sikh protocol and are not being arses. I think they have to be shown how to mutha tek.

Just publish some parcha's or small booklets in english and distribute it to them before giving them langar.Ask Gurdwara to do it on daily basis

[dalsingh101]

What makes you think they can read English?

[Guest zulu]

What gets on my pugh is how a month back I was doing sewa..washing the pandeh, in my local gurdwara there are signs in english and punjabi :

do not wash your hands in the kitchen sink

do not spit in the kitchen sink

do not blow your nose in the kitchen sink

how many people dropped their plate and washed their hands? LOADS! it got me soo annoyed I stopped doing simran and the next guy who tried I told him straight if he read the sign which is ABOVE the sink, pissed me right off!

[kdsingh80]

What makes you think they can read English?

Mostly People from South India know English very well

[G.Kaur]

I agree with kds, you should make some folders you can give non-Sikhs when they come to a Gurdvara. A lot of people have no clue what they are allowed to, what they are expected to do and what are big NOs when they come to a Gurdvara. You can't expect non-Sikhs (and some Sikhs) to know that.

A Norwegian Gurdvara made a folder few years ago for non-Sikhs about Sikhism, I think they distributed it on Vaisakhi. We were also sent some at our Gurdvara even though it's in Norwegian. It was a short, informative folder and it was very good.

If south-Indians can't read or speak English you could make some folders in the language they speak (if there are many of them at your Gurdvara), do they speak Telugu?

Have you got folders or posters in your Gurdvara for non-Sikhs?

Is it Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Seven Kings? If I remember correctly I think there were some folders about Sikhism to non-Sikhs, or maybe it was at Karamsar Gurdvara?

[kdsingh80]

It is nearly Impossible that South Indians don't know english.It is because of them India is still unable to implement Hindi as National language.They have stolen much of IT industry because of English ,unless they are hardcore pendu's there is hardly any chance that they don't know english

Also South Indians broadly speak 4 languages

Tamil,malayali,Telugu or Kannad .Most probably they are going to be Tamilians

Edited June 25, 2011 by kdsingh80

[dalsingh101]

They have stolen much of IT industry because of English

You use of language is interesting.

Personally I see it as Panjabis being dumbass and not being bothered to learn English properly (more stupidity and lack of forethought). Hardly any of the freshies here seem to have bothered judging by their usually busted up English. I have to say Hindu Panjabis seem to have better grasp of English than Sikh Panjabis here for some reason?

Good on the South Indians for learning English. Personally I feel that more placid characteristics of South Indians played a big part in the decision by western companies to invest there as opposed to the north where people seem to be more violent and society less cohesive - so called warrior people. lol

Edited June 25, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

I have to say Hindu Panjabis seem to have better grasp of English than Sikh Panjabis here for some reason?

Hindu Punjabi's are from urban India and mostly they study in Public schools ,Its obvious that they are going to speak much better English than rural Sikhs.Education in India is almost 10 times better in cities,I am sure If you meet Urban sikhs then they speak as good English as Hindu Punjabi's

[Xylitol]

the reason english is so prevalent in south india is b/c the british began their conquest from the south and moved upwards. they ruled the south for the longest time so English had a longer time to sink in; but ruled the north, including Punjab, for the shortest period of time. Also, schools in the pinds are horrible. Generally, the gov't schools are the worst, Sikh dharmic schools are much better, and convent schools, which many cannot afford, are considered the best for english learning.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Xylitol

[dalsingh101]

the reason english is so prevalent in south india is b/c the british began their conquest from the south and moved upwards. they ruled the south for the longest time so English had a longer time to sink in; but ruled the north, including Punjab, for the shortest period of time. Also, schools in the pinds are horrible. Generally, the gov't schools are the worst, Sikh dharmic schools are much better, and convent schools, which many cannot afford, are considered the best for english learning.

Plus lets face it, today the vast majority of our people aren't of any sort of literary bent. Here in England you see wasps reading all the time, on the buses, on the trains, in the parks, on their lunch breaks etc. Regularly reading is part and parcel of middle class culture. The industry based around written English is massive. In contrast the average Panjabi commonly doesn't seem interested in the written word beyond that deemed absolutely necessary. It seems to be a cultural thing? Hell, even the working class, grunt, English foot soldiers in the Anglo-Sikh wars were writing and publishing their accounts. How many Sikhs wrote any thing similar?

Truth is our lot don't place a lot of value on educational things like learning a language fluently in a foreign land. For the common pendu, if they can get by, it is enough. In short there really isn't the will or motivation.

[G.Kaur]

Plus lets face it, today the vast majority of our people aren't of any sort of literary bent. Here in England you see wasps reading all the time, on the buses, on the trains, in the parks, on their lunch breaks etc. Regularly reading is part and parcel of middle class culture. The industry based around written English is massive. In contrast the average Panjabi commonly doesn't seem interested in the written word beyond that deemed absolutely necessary. It seems to be a cultural thing? Hell, even the working class, grunt, English foot soldiers in the Anglo-Sikh wars were writing and publishing their accounts. How many Sikhs wrote any thing similar?

Truth is our lot don't place a lot of value on educational things like learning a language fluently in a foreign land. For the common pendu, if they can get by, it is enough. In short there really isn't the will or motivation.

Who are you talking about here, Dal? People in Punjab who go to the UK or US or other English speaking countries and don't know English very well, or people in and around Europe who live in non-English speaking countries who don't know English very well?

[dalsingh101]

Who are you talking about here, Dal? People in Punjab who go to the UK or US or other English speaking countries and don't know English very well, or people in and around Europe who live in non-English speaking countries who don't know English very well?

I'm talking about people who've been settled in English speaking countries for a while but make very little sustained effort to polish their English language skills and are happy to just scrape by using a sort of pidgin English.

Maybe that's changing now? I knew a good few 'uncle jis' who had been here for years and spoke quite atrocious English. That's pretty lazy (unless they had special needs).

Edited June 28, 2011 by dalsingh101

[G.Kaur]

Well there can be many reasons why people don't make an effort to learn a new language. A lot of the foreigners here (from the middle east, asia and africa) didn't go to high-school, most of them just finished elementary and primary school. A lot of women here (mainly muslims) aren't allowed to go to school because their husbands want them to stay at home, some people have a lot of family problems that they can't concentrate on learning a new language, others are just lazy. And then there are a lot of other reasons too.

If you can only read and write Punjabi and or/Hindi and you move to Europe when you are an adult it is hard to learn the Roman alphabet. If people are illiterate you can't expect them to learn a new language if they can't even read or write their mother tongue.

Most of the people from Punjab who move to the UK and US go there because they want to work and make money and send them back to their families. From what I've seen in London most of the immigrants works for other Indians, they speak Punjabi at work and they don't really meet many people who speak English. So for them they probably don't feel there's a need to learn English?

I do think it's very important to learn the language of the country you are living in, but there can be many circumstances why people don't learn it.

Edited June 28, 2011 by G.Kaur

[dalsingh101]

If you can only read and write Punjabi and or/Hindi and you move to Europe when you are an adult it is hard to learn the Roman alphabet. If people are illiterate you can't expect them to learn a new language if they can't even read or write their mother tongue.

None of the people I am talking about are illiterate, and all know rudimentary English (the basics of which is often learned in India). My point is that they don't make any effort to develop what they know and improve it.

It's that old 'chalda' mentality. The whole notion of learning for purposes other than money making seems lost to our society? Which we know wasn't the case pre-annexation. It is a recent trend.

Most of the people from Punjab who move to the UK and US go there because they want to work and make money and send them back to their families. From what I've seen in London most of the immigrants works for other Indians, they speak Punjabi at work and they don't really meet many people who speak English. So for them they probably don't feel there's a need to learn English?

Again it's a sort of intellectual laziness of sorts. The fact that you reside in a country and have children there should mean you make the effort to master the language of the country.

I do think it's very important to learn the language of the country you are living in, but there can be many circumstances why people don't learn it.

Yes, and some are understandable like lack of opportunity, but too often our people don't bother to learn because of simple laziness and ignorance.

Edited June 28, 2011 by dalsingh101

[ipledgeblue]

Didn't Guru ji used to make people eat langar before giving them the chance to have his darshan? (eg Guru ji and Emperor Akbar)