Was Sikhi Maybe Meant To Be Adaptable? One Philosophy For All People And For All Time?

[CdnSikhGirl]

A lot of this discussion lately has gotten me thinking... was Sikhi maybe meant to be adaptable? One faith for all time and all people? Guru Gobind Singh Ji even himself diverted to panthic decision on things. And authority was given to Panj Pyaras after creation of the Khalsa. Were they given authority so that rigid rules would be enforced through them, or perhaps that they were given the authority to interpret Gurbani and evolve Sikhi?

Up to the point of the creation of the Khalsa, Sikhi had already evolved for 200 years. It was not a religion founded in a day. Each Guru successively contributed to it over those two centuries. Then, something wonderful happened. Guru Gobind Singh Ji felt that Sikhs had established themselves enough to start thinking for themselves. All pertinent information was there, compiled in Sru Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and Guruship passed to SGGSJ. I don't think it coincidence that this is also the point in history when the Khalsa was created, and authority for decision being given to Panj Pyaras from that point onward.

1) Authorty for desicions given to Panj Pyaras

2) The tool for them to interpret decisions based on... SGGSJ

This highly suggests that Sikhi was purposely created to be adaptable, changeable... to truly be a religion for all time and all people. Certainly the core beliefs, the truth about Creator, reality, Maya, etc are unchangeable. But the interpretation of practice as it pertains to current social and cultural ideologies, is ever changing. (There is more than one way to arrive at the truth) And panthic decision can adapt Sikhi so that the core truth to reality remains unchanged, but so that Sikhi spreads instead of dies out, so that different cultures and societies can find themselves associating with it.

For this reason, it was inevitible that deifferent sects have sprung up over the years since. And we should repsect them all. No one sect should consider themselves as the 'original' or 'puratan' because Guru Ji did not create sects... he created the Khalsa only. Though there are minor differences in the Rehet Maryadas... Id say over 95% is the same. And the parts that are the same are what matters. And whoever you take Amrit from, you should abide by the authority given to the panj Pyaras. If they go by SRM and have women as Panj Pyaras, then you should not balk at them. If DDT interprets it as women being in subordination to men, then I will no longer question them. I will respect them as a different offshoot... but just as much Sikh as I am. I only hope they also respect me as such. Because I must abide by the Rehet Maryada passed to me when I take Amrit. The parts that matter... the core beliefs, we follow are the same. I must abide by the same bujjar kurehits as DDT. I must keep the same 5 kakkars, read my nitnem daily, do simran, do seva, refrain from useless ritual, etc. So we are all way more alike than we are different.

At some point, all the sects started as one. And at some point their interpretations have adapted to the times, the cultures, the society around them. But none really go against SGGSJ. And that authority to make the decisions to adapt was given to them by Guru JI himself. So it hurts me when I see that AKJ is called a cult because they treat women as equals and have them in Panj Pyaras. They are some of the most dedicated Sikhs I have seen when it comes to simran and nitnem and living in Sikhi saroop. I have seen many dedicated DDT Singhs too, though they disagree on the place of women in Sikhi, that works for them in their surroundings, and women have the choice to follow AKJ etc. Nobody is forcing anyone to take Amrit with a certain sect.

There seems to be so much emphasis on here of SInghs trying to emmulate the exact beginning or be the most 'puratan' etc. and then using that to degrade others who follow other sects. Mostly those who follow SRM are on the receiving end, but I digress... But maybe Guru Ji meant for us instead to continue growing and evolving Sikhi. Maybe instead of focusing on the past, focus on the here and now and practice Sikhi how best fits for you. I don't think the goal of Sikhi is to scour every document in history to find reasons to follow exactly evry rule or every interpretation of the very first. By their own example, the Gurus showed us Sikhi can continue to grow. Guru Ji would never have given authority for Panj Pyaras to make decisions if their goal was simply to enforce a strict set of rules that were to forever be written in stone. But he gave them the ability to think, and to make decisions. And he provided the tool for them to base their decisions on. By its very nature, Gurbani is able to be interpreted in many different ways (as we have seen). So it was inevitible for Sikhi to evolve, and it was inevitible for different sects to develop.

So... maybe this was his intention all along?

In conclusion, instead of attack each other for our differing views on the small minor things (do you really think Akal Purakh really cares how many nitnem banis we say each morning? I think God would care more about our dedication to reciting the ones that we do... quality over quantity... just as an example) But it doesnt mean its wrong to recite more or less of them... as long as the dedication is there. Remember there is not someone there counting every time you do nitnem... its actually done by YOU for YOUR OWN benefit, to awaken something within you...not to appease a personal diety (as in some other religions). So instead of arguing over the tiny differences like that, why can't we just agree to disagree on those things, recignize that decisions were made throughout Sikhi history which caused these minor differences but that neither are wrong in the end!

So after much deliberation, I have decided that my soul best ressonates with Sikh Rehet Maryada. So I will still take Amrit as I planned... in Kashmir, where SRM is followed universally. I have come to realize that SRM (like GRM etc) is not fake, or somehow un-authentic at all. Because it came into existence through panthic decision (even if not ALL members of the panth agree with it). Panj Pyaras who at some point made the decision to interpret Gurbani in the way that ultimately led to the Sikh Rehet Maryada, were actually in accordance with this authority given to them by Guru Ji. So this makes it valid. Yes, even the bits that state women can be Panj Pyaras, because this decision too was made ultimately at some point by Panj Pyaras who exercised this authority given by Guru Ji to make decisions. This doesn't make DDT's GRM invalid...they can co-exist as two differing interpretations but both are valid and correct, as long as the core beliefs and values remain the same. And the core beliefs and values are what are directly taught in SGGSJ.

So what is your opinion? And please keep comments about specific jathas or sects to yourself. This post is meant to be positive not negative. It's not to shoot down one or the other. It's to uplift ALL of them as being valid, just speaking to different groups of people. The purpose of this post was to discuss Sikhi as an adaptable and evolving faith and if it was possibly made this way on purpose by Guru Ji. The way it was done certainly suggests that it was done on purpose in my mind... how about you?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[das]

Great, on track.

One should move towards the common higher goal and take what resonates with you and leave what doesn't; afterall in the beginning and at end it will only be ONE (the higher goal) and rest in between is all Illusion (with a Hint of Source in the middle to remind us about HIM).

Edited May 7, 2015 by das

[Singh123456777]

According to you then sikhi is supposed to evolve etc... Then in the future there will be sects that say cutting hair is the true way etc... The line has to be drawn at a point...

[CdnSikhGirl]

According to you then sikhi is supposed to evolve etc... Then in the future there will be sects that say cutting hair is the true way etc... The line has to be drawn at a point...

Yes I agree... those things were established by Guru Ji himself when Khalsa was created. Bujjar Kurehits are definitely not be changeable and are established in hard fact...

I mean the little differences based on unwritten things like women being panj pyares (or doing other seva), whether keski is required or not (different from being a kakkar... I mean whether it should be mandatory for both), how many nitnem banis in the morning, how one actually approaches simran etc. While those things differ between jathas, they don't make anyone less of a Sikh I don't think. All of the sects became established through someone's interpretation of Gurbani at some point. I don't think there is any one who is correct while all others are 'cults' etc.

I don't mean the core beliefs are changeable... I did mention above bujjar kurehits, kakkars etc definitely not. (I think I did anyway I will check above). I mean the small differences in the 'unwritten' things... so cutting of hair would never be adaptable. That was from Guru Ji himself when uniform for Khalsa was established. However, there is nothing in writing direct from Guru Ji on these small things (some are in 52 Hukkams... like every Sikh must tie a turban but even 52 Hukams are debated as being authentic or not.) And we can't use the adage 'absence of proof = proof of absence...we have to be very careful to not say that because we can't find an example of something, it must mean that something was disallowed... many times it means just that... there weren't any examples written down. That's not the same as written word or command.)

My point is, I should not be seen as less Sikh because I follow Sikh Rehet Maryada... because Panj Pyaras at some point made the decision that women should be included... maybe because changing times, the world is not as it was then, and women are now stepping forward to play more prominent roles... no matter their reasoning, Panj Pyaras made that decision at some point, which started including women. The right to decision making was given to them by Guru Ji to interpret Gurbani. Therefore someone who follows SRM is no less of a Sikh than someone who follows DDT's GRM. Amritdhari must abide by the RM they were given by the Panj Pyaras that gave them amrit.

That's my point. So we shouldn't be attacking each other. You can follow GRM, but shouldnt see me as less Sikh because I follow SRM, just like I won't see you as less of a Sikh because you choose to follow GRm and not be inclusive to women. Both ended up being established through the means that Guru Ji left which was the ability for Sikhi to evolve and decisions to be made by the panth (through Panj Pyares).

No Rhetnama was written by Guru Ji himself in his own words... closest we have to that is 52 Hukkams.

My point is, I should not be seen as less Sikh because I follow Sikh Rehet Maryada... because Panj Pyaras at some point made the decision that women should be included... maybe because changing times, the world is not as it was then, and women are now stepping forward to play more prominent roles... no matter their reasoning, Panj Pyaras made that decision at some point, which started including women. The right to decision making was given to them by Guru Ji to interpret Gurbani. Therefore someone who follows SRM is no less of a Sikh than someone who follows DDT's GRM. Amritdhari must abide by the RM they were given by the Panj Pyaras that gave them amrit.

That's my point. So we shouldn't be attacking each other. You can follow GRM, but shouldnt see me as less Sikh because I follow SRM, just like I won't see you as less of a Sikh because you choose to follow GRm and not be inclusive to women. Both ended up being established through the means that Guru Ji left which was the ability for Sikhi to evolve and decisions to be made by the panth (through Panj Pyares).

No Rhetnama was written by Guru Ji himself in his own words... closest we have to that is 52 Hukkams.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[CdnSikhGirl]

................. oopps clicked quote instead of edit

Edited May 7, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[SikhKhoj]

Interesting topic. A conversation about 'changing times' between a Khatri Hindu and Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Taken exactly from Suraj Parkash (written 1843)

[Nau Nidh speaking] "Oh Lord, you have created a new [religious] Path, you have created a new dress and have kept your Kesh [unshorn hair].

Guru Ji, helper of the poor, why have you kept Kesh as a part of your dress

 )?

Hearing the words [of Nau Nidh], Guru Ji said, "You have studied many Shaastras"

"You have spent your life listening and reciting the Shaastras, yet you have not come to realize the answer"

Adorning Kesh is beneficial to keeping one's Dharam, since the start of time this has been the tradition.

In the great land of Bharat [india], keeping Kesh is an exalted part of Dharam.

Listening to the answer, Nau Nidh replied, "what you have said is true.

Everyone used to keep their Kesh, however times have changed."

Guru Ji replied, "How have times changed? The same sun remains, the same moon, water, wind, fire and Earth remain. How can you blame time?

Blame yourself for not being able to keep Kesh, speak the truth Nau Nidh.

You do not have the strength to keep Kesh so you dismissively blame the times for changing.

Edited May 7, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[SikhKhoj]

The above post is not intended as an attack to the OP.

The Basics and rehat will always remain the same but some things like organ donation, blood donation etc are rather new and need new perspectives, and new phenomenas in biology & other fields will keep appearing thus forcing us to form an opinion in the light of Gurbani and Gur Ithaas (the one thats acceptable in the light of gurbani).

[CdnSikhGirl]

I think women participation also falls into that as cultural influence was likely a big reason why women back then were subservient etc there is nothing in Gurbani stating that it's a hard fact for all time for women to be locked into subservience.

I already stated the core beliefs remain the same it's the interpretation of the aspects of how we actually approach this journey that can adapt.

We still can't say absence of proof is proof of absence... It just means we have not found proof. So we can't say if women were allowed to be panj payara or not... Just that we can't find proof. Different people interpret that in different ways so we have some who say that "if we can't find proof then it must never have happened" while others say "well it just means that it may have happened but was not written down or recorded" so group one restricts women and group two includes them.

So Panj payres interpret Gurbbani as per their understanding and make their decision based on that. And so we have numerous sects to show for it.

I don't think it makes any sect less Sikh than the other as long as the core beliefs are upheld... Oneness of God, kakkars, bujjar kurehit etc. these things are either found in Gurbani written down, or Guru Jis 52 hukkams or were instilled on Vaisakhi day 1699 as part of creation of Khalsa.

Rest is open to interpretation... So let's stop this competition for who is best Sikh and stop calling each other names for following different rehet maryadas. As long as we recognize the 99% that we have in common and respect each other as Sikhs.

[harsharan000]

Dear sangat jee,

according to the the topic of this thread, that, if sikhee is a path for all people and times... we can refer to the Bani and see the beauty and Truth contained in it.

First of all, sikhee is a spiritual path, it means, it is for the souls, the jeevas, and as such we can say it is universal.

We can say, it is a love relation between the Shabad Guru and the Surat dhun chela, or soul, or call it sikh, seeker or disciple.

Why is it a love realtion?

Because, it is due to His inmense love for His jeevas, that He leaves His throne Sach Khand, and comes to rescue His wadbhagee jeevas from the Maha Bhavsagar by His Mauj, and getting in return most of the times, harrasment, hatred and abuses of all types from we, the so called human beings.

Just as Wahiguru is the same since aad jugaad, so is the soul, neither Wahiguru has changed even to say a atom about Him, so neither has the soul changed.

Different thing is, the soul has been wandering through countless joonees, countless yugas. The changes have always been, at physical, mental, emotional, astral or causal levels...but never ever at pure spiritual levels...

Akal moorat, ajonee ...

Dhan Dhan Satguru Amar DasMaharaj, in His pure paviter Bani in Raag Guaarayaree has said:

Jug chaareh Naam Outham Sabadh Beechaar

Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Shabad

Let us reason a little bit, we see changes all around us, every single moment, every single second there are changes...why to go far, let us see our ownselves, how from a baby child we grow into adults, and then one day we pass away...all the universes, realms, khands, brahmands...abosolutely everything ...some gods are destituted others are put on .... creation is in constant motion.

On the other side, there where Wahiguru is, there are absolutely no changes. So, if Wahiguru is one, naturally the path, leading to Him, has to be one. It can not be different for different religions, castes, colors or social status.... because the soul is always the same, it is changeless, just as Wahiguru.

So naturally, why now, or 5.000 years alone back for example?

Guru jee has clearly said, sikhee or the path of Shabad or Naam, is, for all times, no matter if the creation goes on and on in countless circles, of births and deaths, of parlays and mahaparlays.....

But even then, the path of sikhee shall remain the same, no matter, how so much the ignorant and stupid man tries to manipulate according to his murakhta, the law, the way, the path established by Akal Purukh Himself, to return back to Him, shall remain the same throughout the eternity...

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited May 8, 2015 by harsharan000

[paapiman]

You should have posted the above points, in the more appropriate topic.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Ragmaala]

As harsharan mentioned, the shabd guru will always stay the same...forever.

However the differences amongst the jathas will always stay the same. but the Guru is the same.

no two humans are on the same spiritual level.

those who are wise will never fight, even if they have different views.

as other posters have mentioned, keep collecting the good qualities , ignore the bad ones or the ones you dont like, avoid useless arguments unless its really required, march fwd, have a balance attitude towards what you can change and what you cannot.

[Ragmaala]

As for the issue of Female Panj Pyara, not everyone will feel the same or have same view. Sit with those who agree with you, and avoid those who dont. Simple way to avoid fights and arguments.

As for the length and number of Baanis, choose whatever you like. However, more the merrier.

[Singh123456777]

Interesting topic. A conversation about 'changing times' between a Khatri Hindu and Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Taken exactly from Suraj Parkash (written 1843)

[Nau Nidh speaking] "Oh Lord, you have created a new [religious] Path, you have created a new dress and have kept your Kesh [unshorn hair].

Guru Ji, helper of the poor, why have you kept Kesh as a part of your dress

 )?Hearing the words [of Nau Nidh], Guru Ji said, "You have studied many Shaastras""You have spent your life listening and reciting the Shaastras, yet you have not come to realize the answer"Adorning Kesh is beneficial to keeping one's Dharam, since the start of time this has been the tradition.In the great land of Bharat [india], keeping Kesh is an exalted part of Dharam.Listening to the answer, Nau Nidh replied, "what you have said is true.

Everyone used to keep their Kesh, however times have changed."

Guru Ji replied, "How have times changed? The same sun remains, the same moon, water, wind, fire and Earth remain. How can you blame time?

Blame yourself for not being able to keep Kesh, speak the truth Nau Nidh.

You do not have the strength to keep Kesh so you dismissively blame the times for changing.

I dont give any importance to Suraj Parkash, your taksal does. So if your Taksal does viakhiya and so many Kathas on Suraj Parkash it means they love that book. So why doesnt one of their fav books mention DDT?

You are a hypocrite...

[Ragmaala]

Satkirin,

if you follow SRM, obviosuly that does not make you a lesser sikh. you should choose whatever works for you, in the longer run these minor things wont make a big difference.

I am very open to letting individuals do their own thing. I really do believe that every Sikh Human Being is different. What works for one person might not work for another. So we should let people choose whatever minor path they like within the Core Sikhi. I believe in diversity in Sikhism.

I only hate those people who want to tamper around with the integrity of Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Granth and do nindya of Sants. These people I cannot tolerate. Everyone else if good.

[Lucky]

As harsharan mentioned, the shabd guru will always stay the same...forever.

However the differences amongst the jathas will always stay the same. but the Guru is the same.

no two humans are on the same spiritual level.

those who are wise will never fight, even if they have different views.

Too right bro!

You have to practice and experience the Truth by practical approaches per self and per soul.

It's no good debating and arguing the truth if you've never even made the decent efforts to try and merge with Sat....to experience His presence....to feel his divine love...

When you do it with your truest intentions...you will automatically rise above these debates and arguments....you will rise above both Ustat and Nindya.......you will realize just how much life and breaths you have wasted arguing over what you thought was the truth.

You will realize just how clever those 'peredhaar'....the panj dhuts, kram, krodh, lobh, moh,and ahankar are in the trickery they use to fool you!

You can waste your whole life praising and debating over the glories of your jatha, but it won't take you anywhere near the Truth, unless you try and practice it.

Does the truth, the Sat...talk and justify itself ?

or do the 5 dhuts, the peredhaars of your mind... fool you so well into thinking that they are the truth?

You know guys..... sikhi is about finding this out for yourselves....per individual person...per soul.

[SikhKhoj]

to Singh1234...: Whatever you say man, I know what I am. I do not believe that Suraj Parkash and other historical granths are infallible. I don't hatch importance to them as much as Taksalis seem to do, there are Taksali babas spending months going through all of Suraj Parkash in Sangat while the more important Shabad Guru lays there uncontemplated.

I never said Rehatnamas, Suraj Parkash or other puratan books have NO invaluable info, but they have alot of interpolated info surely. Thereby I am free to quote from any historical granth because I know their importance but also their several flaws...

[SikhKhoj]

to Neo, lets take the discussion to the other topic with brother Paapiman.

[Guest]

Yes i have moved all the off-topics regarding ddt on this thread:

[paapiman]

Yes i have moved all the off-topics regarding ddt on this thread:

Thanks bro.