Sikh History Vs Gurbani

[SikhKhoj]

* Why is it that we are always ready to accept facts written in old books and stories related to some places even if they are in direct contradiction to Gurmat?

* If Brahmgyanis really do get their knowledge from God, then how come we have had brahmgyanis who contradict each other on major issues such as Ragmala, Kakkaar (Bhindranwaley vs Randhir Singh), brahmgyanis who said Sant Jarnail Singh was alive for 20 years but yet Sant Ji fails to show up after 31 years? Nihang brahmgyanis who consume meat while all other brahmgyanis frown upon it. Nirmala/Udasi brahmgyanis who let hair loose while Taksalis would beat up any Sikh without dastar and flowing hair.

Fact is that good, noble souls who meditate, connect to god and fight for justice do exist BUT claiming that they are all knowing and putting your full confidence in every of their words is your own stupidity.

[sukrit kaur]

I dont know why ,but that made me LOL.As I think,This is the True Maya/illusion.This is a Big trap of Kal to deciet a soul by creating doubts.When such question arises in anyone's mind,leads to doubting the stature of true Brahmgyani.Why the most of souls like me are still wandering in search of a true satpursh.? This is the main reason.Maya has created a such trap,a such network that we become so suspicious and our minds start doubting every object.Only, with grace of waheguru,this is understandable.When a TRUE BRAHMGYANI shows his mercy,then the lucky one is true winner of this game and then he can well understand the reality.But Then he becomes silent.Silent in name of God! And still it's a puzzle for others.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Why should we even worry about who is or isnt a 'Brahmgyani'? Isn't that about THEIR journey? This is OUR journey... we are supposed to become Brahmgyani ourselves... we cant do that by following only what someone else says. This is our time, and our chance to meet Waheguru Ji in THIS lifetime. The tool we have is Gurbani. There are different ways to the same one truth. Maybe ours is slightly different than theirs? We can see differences between two whom we consider to be Brahmgyani now... so maybe their paths were slightly different from each other even. But that was their journey. This is ours. Why can't we instead focus on our OWN journey? And read Gurbani OURSELVES!

[Guest]

* Why is it that we are always ready to accept facts written in old books and stories related to some places even if they are in direct contradiction to Gurmat?

Human conditioning i guess to simple to follow rigid rules than thinking out of box using logic, critical analysis, contextualization

* If Brahmgyanis really do get their knowledge from God, then how come we have had brahmgyanis who contradict each other on major issues such as Ragmala, Kakkaar (Bhindranwaley vs Randhir Singh), brahmgyanis who said Sant Jarnail Singh was alive for 20 years but yet Sant Ji fails to show up after 31 years? Nihang brahmgyanis who consume meat while all other brahmgyanis frown upon it. Nirmala/Udasi brahmgyanis who let hair loose while Taksalis would beat up any Sikh without dastar and flowing hair.

In this relative/transient world context, bhramgyanis may seem differ on many issues or have various opnions sometimes different from one another or even opposite but when it comes to absolute truth or real self its all ONE, they don't stress or feel give importance too much on relative issues. They realize all these different opinions is universal play of universal consciousness arising from them(ocean) as wave and wave subsiding in them(ocean).

Bhramgyani is quite assumed, playful at these differences, even massive rifts, even world war going on seem like a playful leela as there is no other, its vahiguru himself playing this stage drama and expressing itself in many different forms, its seriously joke. Needless to say without any effort, right actions as per mysterious divine will unfolding itself (hakum) spontaneously very naturally arise from them as reaction but there is no correct pattern, particular view, point of view, fixations, conditioning, methods, logic is followed in game of divine spirituality, so normal joe blow like us cannot really box them into our conceptual mind.

Fact is that good, noble souls who meditate, connect to god and fight for justice do exist BUT claiming that they are all knowing and putting your full confidence in every of their words is your own stupidity.

Totally agree, putting all our confidence in their words without acting is quite a stupidity they don't advocate that either as they listen to their teachers word, take the bachans which resonates with them deeply , bring them into their own practise on deep spiritual level, experience it rather than quoting them right, left and centre like parrot.

As they say- religion is somebody experience, spirituality is one own inner experience. For eg- right now i beleive in ragmalla is gurbani but that beleif its not through my own direct expereince but by seeing evidences and also faith building in Guru maharaj which is sufficient enough. However, nothing trumps direct experience with gurbani with unconditioned mind.

However, if tom if in my own meditative experience I have clear pristine parchand gyan through divine insight that ragmalla is gurbani.

I clearly won't give two hoots what other parties but for party or against party has to say because personal deeper spiritual direct insight from divine is much more direct/deeply resonating than both parties for or against combined have to say as their arguments is more conceptual/intellectual than direct expereince.. I would support ragmalla not because some X, Y, Z sant said so but because its in my direct meditative experience with divine. This is just not my saying, sants follow their own direct meditative experience as well how do you think sant gyani gurbachan singh ji ragmalla antriv arths came from? It's through his meditative experience. I read it, i appreciate but do i become totally blind follower of antriv arths of ragmalla by him? NO, i bring it in my own experience, drop ragmalla tuk from gurbani in empty space in meditation see how ragmalla deep profound meanings unfold for me.

[dalsingh101]

* Why is it that we are always ready to accept facts written in old books and stories related to some places even if they are in direct contradiction to Gurmat?

I think because often these places serve lower, human instincts with things like offering miracles to the desperate. They also serve as points of community social cohesion/identity and even help the economy in their regions.

So even if the stories are 'of doubtful provenance', the locations still serve certain needs of the people who go there or subscribe to the stories that emanate from the places.

[Ragmaala]

*

* If Brahmgyanis really do get their knowledge from God, then how come we have had brahmgyanis who contradict each other on major issues such as Ragmala, Kakkaar (Bhindranwaley vs Randhir Singh), brahmgyanis who said Sant Jarnail Singh was alive for 20 years but yet Sant Ji fails to show up after 31 years? Nihang brahmgyanis who consume meat while all other brahmgyanis frown upon it. Nirmala/Udasi brahmgyanis who let hair loose while Taksalis would beat up any Sikh without dastar and flowing hair.

Fact is that good, noble souls who meditate, connect to god and fight for justice do exist BUT claiming that they are all knowing and putting your full confidence in every of their words is your own stupidity.

I do believe that Brahmgyanis do get their knowledge from one true source,and we should put all our confidence in their words. True brahmgyanis will not contradict each other.Guru Nanak Ji is pargat in 10 roops and Gupt in 74 forms as Sants.

• Ragmala is core concept of Gurbani, whoever denies it is definitely not all knowing.
• Meat issue- those on bhagti marag solely definitely against,
• Baba Thakur Singh issue- definitely a ?
• Letting hair loose - Guru Amardas Jis killi is still present in Goindwal where he tied his kes, Baba Nand Singh Ji let his kes open and did tapasya, many photos of Sant Baba Ishar Singh Ji Kaleran & Rara taking ishanna in rivers etc. so again all TRUE brahmgyanis agreed.

Only problem is that we do not who a brahmgyani is? We cannot put a label and call someone a brahmgyani. Only a Guru or another Brahmgyani knows about the truth. Even if we are in front of a pooran mahapurakh we cannot know him, unless Guru ji wants us to know or does kirpa.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Ragmaala

[paapiman]

* If Brahmgyanis really do get their knowledge from God, then how come we have had brahmgyanis who contradict each other on major issues such as Ragmala, Kakkaar (Bhindranwaley vs Randhir Singh), brahmgyanis who said Sant Jarnail Singh was alive for 20 years but yet Sant Ji fails to show up after 31 years?

If one does not believe in any part of Gurbani, he has not reached the avastha of Gurmukh Brahamgyani (7th stage of Brahamgyan).

Nihang brahmgyanis who consume meat while all other brahmgyanis frown upon it.

Can you please provide reference for the above? I will appreciate that.

Nirmala/Udasi brahmgyanis who let hair loose while Taksalis would beat up any Sikh without dastar and flowing hair.

It is all about maryada. Nirmalay and Udhasis are also an integral part of the panth and have different maryadas. According to DDT maryada, one cannot keep his hair loose and come out in public.

Answer my question: I am pretty sure you believe, both Baba Deep Singh jee and Baba Ghanaiya jee are Brahamgyanis. Why is there, so much difference in their ways? One killed thousands of tyrants, while the other was serving water to the tyrants? Doesn't that confuse you?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 13, 2015 by paapiman

[ramgharia]

the problem with our panth is that we have so many sampradayes with diffrent rehat maryadas. our all sampradayes should follow same rehat maryada. panth should have only one rehat maryada.

Edited May 15, 2015 by ramgharia

[paapiman]

the problem with our panth is that we have so many sampradayes with diffrent rehat maryadas. our all sampradayes should follow same rehat maryada. panth should have only one rehat maryada.

Someone can also say that we need to have only one granth. But, we have three. Not all people are of the same avastha. Therefore, at times, different level/type of instruction is required to uplift their spiritual lives.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

the problem with our panth is that we have so many sampradayes with diffrent rehat maryadas. our all sampradayes should follow same rehat maryada. panth should have only one rehat maryada.

We do only have one Rehet Maryada. There is only one Rehet Maryada recognized by Akal Takht - the seat of Sikh authority - called Sikh Rehet Maryada.... Problem is some who didn't get their own way, went off on their own and disregard it. And they then try to force their own RM down everyone else's throats as 'THE word of Guru JI" to try and guilt everyone.

Paapiman - you just stated that not everyone needs to follow the same RM because different people require different instruction. But then, in the same breath you will usually try to shoot down whatever RM is NOT DDTs by usually adding "DDTs RM is THE RM of Guru Ji himself". And you have actively shot down SRM numerous times, even though SRM is the closest we have to Panthic RM through years of deliberation by literally hundreds of Sikhs from different backgrounds. SRM was created by removing all the 'differences' and keeping what everyone had in common as common ground. SRM was created taking all the Rhetnamas into account (including Daya Singh and Chaupa Singh) but using only SGGSJ as the end 'test' to which the finsihed product was compared. This ensured that anything in those original rhetnamas which was likely culture influence or personal opinion were removed. And only Gurbani ultimately decided the code of conduct.

I think you just hate SRM because it doesn't tell women they have to worship you as God. (BTW overwhelmingly, majority of Sikhs totally understand that in that tuk you love so much, 'she' is not speaking of physical women/wives, but of 'soul bride' which we all are, including you... and husband spoken of is Husband Lord = God).

Also something you should learn Paapiman: a TRUE leader would never have to DEMAND respect from anyone. Or ever put such a rule into writing in a Rehet Maryada... that is the sign of a weak leader. A TRUE leader, LEADS BY EXAMPLE, not by putting themselves on a pedistal above everyone else. The bigger the Ego, the harder the fall. I hope you learn that someday.

But glad that you openly stated now that different people can follow different rules / instructions so please stop trying to guilt anyone who doesn't follow DDTs RM.

[paapiman]

Paapiman - you just stated that not everyone needs to follow the same RM because different people require different instruction. But then, in the same breath you will usually try to shoot down whatever RM is NOT DDTs by usually adding "DDTs RM is THE RM of Guru Ji himself". And you have actively shot down SRM numerous times, even though SRM is the closest we have to Panthic RM through years of deliberation by literally hundreds of Sikhs from different backgrounds. SRM was created by removing all the 'differences' and keeping what everyone had in common as common ground. SRM was created taking all the Rhetnamas into account (including Daya Singh and Chaupa Singh) but using only SGGSJ as the end 'test' to which the finsihed product was compared. This ensured that anything in those original rhetnamas which was likely culture influence or personal opinion were removed. And only Gurbani ultimately decided the code of conduct.

I think you just hate SRM because it doesn't tell women they have to worship you as God. (BTW overwhelmingly, majority of Sikhs totally understand that in that tuk you love so much, 'she' is not speaking of physical women/wives, but of 'soul bride' which we all are, including you... and husband spoken of is Husband Lord = God).

Also something you should learn Paapiman: a TRUE leader would never have to DEMAND respect from anyone. Or ever put such a rule into writing in a Rehet Maryada... that is the sign of a weak leader. A TRUE leader, LEADS BY EXAMPLE, not by putting themselves on a pedistal above everyone else. The bigger the Ego, the harder the fall. I hope you learn that someday.

But glad that you openly stated now that different people can follow different rules / instructions so please stop trying to guilt anyone who doesn't follow DDTs RM.

Quote

Bro, I don't think I said that DDT is the only approved RM (I apologize if I did). DDT is one of the approved ones. Obviously, Nanaksar and Nihang Maryadas are also right. I don't want to comment on the so-called SRM and AKJ maryada.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Unquote

[SikhKhoj]

There is only one Guru, Guru Granth Sahib. Sarbloh is not even worthy of debate as most historian such as Pandit Tara Singh Narotam have clarified the origins of this Granth.

[CdnSikhGirl]

How is DDT's RM 'one of the approved'??? Akal Takht only recognizes Sikh Rehet Maryada.

So how can you use words like 'so-called' in front of Sikh Rehet Maryada (as if you are turning your nose to it) while supporting several RMs which are not even recognized by Akal Takht? And stating they are the 'recognized' ones. You make no sense...

They are only 'recognized' by those who defy Akal Takht!

Edited May 15, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[ramgharia]

i want that all the sampradayes in sikhi sbould adopt only one maryada. like the RM adopted by akal takht should be followed by all the panth no other RM should be followed. Khalsa is one and should follow one RM

We do only have one Rehet Maryada. There is only one Rehet Maryada recognized by Akal Takht - the seat of Sikh authority - called Sikh Rehet Maryada.... Problem is some who didn't get their own way, went off on their own and disregard it. And they then try to force their own RM down everyone else's throats as 'THE word of Guru JI" to try and guilt everyone.

Paapiman - you just stated that not everyone needs to follow the same RM because different people require different instruction. But then, in the same breath you will usually try to shoot down whatever RM is NOT DDTs by usually adding "DDTs RM is THE RM of Guru Ji himself". And you have actively shot down SRM numerous times, even though SRM is the closest we have to Panthic RM through years of deliberation by literally hundreds of Sikhs from different backgrounds. SRM was created by removing all the 'differences' and keeping what everyone had in common as common ground. SRM was created taking all the Rhetnamas into account (including Daya Singh and Chaupa Singh) but using only SGGSJ as the end 'test' to which the finsihed product was compared. This ensured that anything in those original rhetnamas which was likely culture influence or personal opinion were removed. And only Gurbani ultimately decided the code of conduct.

I think you just hate SRM because it doesn't tell women they have to worship you as God. (BTW overwhelmingly, majority of Sikhs totally understand that in that tuk you love so much, 'she' is not speaking of physical women/wives, but of 'soul bride' which we all are, including you... and husband spoken of is Husband Lord = God).

Also something you should learn Paapiman: a TRUE leader would never have to DEMAND respect from anyone. Or ever put such a rule into writing in a Rehet Maryada... that is the sign of a weak leader. A TRUE leader, LEADS BY EXAMPLE, not by putting themselves on a pedistal above everyone else. The bigger the Ego, the harder the fall. I hope you learn that someday.

But glad that you openly stated now that different people can follow different rules / instructions so please stop trying to guilt anyone who doesn't follow DDTs RM.

[paapiman]

There is only one Guru, Guru Granth Sahib. Sarbloh is not even worthy of debate as most historian such as Pandit Tara Singh Narotam have clarified the origins of this Granth.

There is only one Satguru, but we have three granths. Do you believe in Sri Dasam Granth sahib jee?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[SikhKhoj]

DDT is a sect. Their Rehat Maryada is in no way more authentic than any other sects.

Akal Takht is our supreme temporal seat, its Maryada might have some flaws but its the most correct without sect-minded influences which dilute Sikhi. The SRM does not hold one person in extreme respect and thus obeys their every (even anti Gurmat) stance, the SRM tries to act according to the teaching of Gurmat and history not the so called mystical experiences of Babas who dream that 7th Guru married 8 women.

[paapiman]

i want that all the sampradayes in sikhi sbould adopt only one maryada. like the RM adopted by akal takht should be followed by all the panth no other RM should be followed. Khalsa is one and should follow one RM

So, why did Baba Ghaniyaa jee not fight the tyrant Mughals, but instead served them? If there was only one maryada (for example Nihang maryada), then he would have had no option, but to fight with them.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[SikhKhoj]

No, I don't believe in Sarbloh Granth.

[SikhKhoj]

Guru Hargobind killed Painde Khan but also shielded him so he could remember Allah. He did both Baba Deep Singh and Bhai Kanhaiyas job.

[ramgharia]

having three granths is diffrent khalsa follows three granths. there are so many sampradayes in our panth with so many maryadas i want to say that all the sampradayes should follow one maryada becouse then there will be no rehat issues.

Someone can also say that we need to have only one granth. But, we have three. Not all people are of the same avastha. Therefore, at times, different level/type of instruction is required to uplift their spiritual lives.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee fateh

[paapiman]

Akal Takht is our supreme temporal seat, its Maryada might have some flaws but its the most correct without sect-minded influences which dilute Sikhi. The SRM does not hold one person in extreme respect and thus obeys their every (even anti Gurmat) stance, the SRM tries to act according to the teaching of Gurmat and history not the so called mystical experiences of Babas who dream that 7th Guru married 8 women.

The jathedar of Budha Dal used to be the jathedar of Sri Akal Takht sahib.

The jathedar of DDT used to be the head granthi of Sri Harmandir Sahib.

Do you know, how many times Sri Rehraas Sahib has been changed under sgpc?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 15, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

No, I don't believe in Sarbloh Granth.

Bro, I asked you about Sri Dasam Granth Sahib?

[CdnSikhGirl]

Paapiman though Dasam Granth is important writing it is NOT considered Guru. Guruship was passed ONLY to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Therefore if ANY conflict arises SGGSJ is the HIGHEST authority. Dasam Granth may have important writing but should never hold equal status or level to SGGSJ

There is also debate as to whether the full Dasam Granth can be attributed to Guru Ji or not... Certainly some can but some is in question also.

Dasam Granth is also misunderstood... Particularly in its writing about women. It's describing the unfortunate unbalance if women are oppressed. And the only answer is equality. Because women will fight back against oppression and domination in what way they can. This is not a fault but an inevitable reaction to the situation.

It's also pointing out the men's own faults and women's actual power. The only way to restore full balance is to practice what SGGSJ says about equality.

That section is often misinterpreted to shoot down women... And it was never meant to

Edited May 15, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Guru Hargobind killed Painde Khan but also shielded him so he could remember Allah. He did both Baba Deep Singh and Bhai Kanhaiyas job.

Don't talk about Satguru jee, as he is beyond our comprehension. He is God.

Why is there difference, in the ways of the two Brahamgyanis? Baba Deep singh jee and Baba Ghaniyaa jee?

[SikhKhoj]

The jathedar of Budha Dal used to be the jathedar of Sri Akal Takht sahib.

I challenge you, show me one Granth written before 1850 which says Akal Takth had a Jathedar?

There was no such post, this 'Jathedari' is a 20th century invention. Bhai Mani Singh is decribed as Vadda Pujari (head priest) in puratan Granths. Ask your DDT babas.

The jathedar of DDT used to be the head granthi of Sri Harmandir Sahib.

Another lie, what is your proof besides hearsay?