Why Sikhi failed to spread

[amardeep]

12 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

the mindset that says "why did sikhi fail to spread" seems very petty to me.

be honest: why do you want it to spread? personal sense of validation?

it didn't "fail" to spread.  in a world of 1000 dharams, it just never needed to.

 

Not petty at all. There has always been missionary activities amongst the Sikhs, - however comparing them to other faiths that ran parallel to Sikhi you can see that Sikhi never managed to attract large numbers.

[Pakandi -Baba]

If you look at the other Religions they had crusades, forced conversions. If the Gurus were after this you think they lacked the abilty? no. They were God Incarnate and did it the right way, they preached and those that were attracted to the pure word with their pure hearts embraced the religion of the Lord God Sikhi. 

 

We're about quality and not quantity. 

[kdsingh80]

3 minutes ago, Pakandi -Baba said:

If you look at the other Religions they had crusades, forced conversions. If the Gurus were after this you think they lacked the abilty? no. They were God Incarnate and did it the right way, they preached and those that were attracted to the pure word with their pure hearts embraced the religion of the Lord God Sikhi. 

 

We're about quality and not quantity. 

Much of christianity islam did not spread by forced conversions , sufi's missionaries spread them , and please remember these days quantity has all the political power not quality.Quality has to depend on the mercy of majority  

[Pakandi -Baba]

1 minute ago, kdsingh80 said:

Much of christianity islam did not spread by forced conversions , sufi's missionaries spread them , and please remember these days quantity has all the political power not quality.Quality has to depend on the mercy of majority  

A lot of it did. Plus Sikhs had Moghuls to contend with so had less time to spread the message as the priority was staying alive. Do some research. What has these days got do with anything.

 

[SAadmin]

Interesting example is Buddhism, how it spreads to various asian countries. I think most of monarch kings were influenced by buddhism in asian countries and that itself was factor of buddhism spreading across the Asian continent.

[das]

Do we ourselves understanding what is a Sikhi?

Originally, Sikhi was a Philosophy (study of fundamental nature of reality, existence, knowledge, mind etc.).........WWWWH........Who are we and from Where we came, Why are we here, Why we forgot our true home, and How could be go back to our home. It was practiced by all the Gurus but after 5th Guruji, things started to get touch for the followers of that philosophy because the Matrix/Maya forces don't want their properties (Souls) to vanish from their 3 worlds. So, as the time demands, the 10th Guru created a new Identity. This was the need of the hour, otherwise the philosophy could have been erased or corrupted. But later on (due to influence of Matrix forces on our minds) it proved to be a problem because we started to treat the newly created identity as the Dogmatic Religion. Now, we've reached a point where we consider a person Sikh only and only iff he/she a Amritdhari or at-least born in Sikh family with uncut head hair.

It wasn't like that before.......a person could be a Sikh (follower of the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji) but still belong to another religion. Peek into history to verify it. Even couple of decades back, when there were known Brahmgyanis.....like RaraSahib wale, Mustane wale, Nanaskar wale, Hotemardan wale etc.....they were preaching the philosophy and not the dogmatic religion.

It is very hard to come to a concrete conclusion about this because everything is Changing continuously (the only truth is the Change and God). Some rules are mandatory to protect the philosophy but at the same time, the rules always try to become the philosophy because of the continuous corruption by Maya.

Bottom-line is: Avatars came and preach what was relevant at that point and time but we assholes end up doing this vs that and therefore trying to own God. It's like when couple of days back, I was trying to tell my daughters some Spiritual story so that they could learn the importance of Truth and Honesty, but after the story she asked me how the person in story climbed the tree........I was like, am I fool or my daughters are.......then I realized that we (adults) are also doing the same when the point comes to the understanding the real teachings of Sants/Gurus.......so, it's all about the Time when we will understand by the Grace of Him.

--------------------------------

Couple of days back, I was watching katha of Gyani Masteen Singh Ji where we was referring to a situation where some Atheists asks that: Ram-Chandar ji in Tretayug was called a Maryada-Purushottam (master of following Dictum/Restrictions/Rules) whereas Krishan ji in Dwaparyug was called Leela-Purushottam (game player who could easily bend/break rules as per the situations) and therefore there is no common ground for the existence of One God. Gyani Maskeen Singh explained in a beautiful way as follows:

In Tretayug, the Soul in human body was in primary school where it was the necessity of time to educate about the Rules; so the Avatar came for that. But in Dwapar, the Soul did learnt the rules and now it was time to teach them that the rules were there to protect/discipline the conduct of Mind; so the Avatar came for that.....and now in Kalyug, Guru Nanak Dev Ji came at the time when the humans have degraded themselves so low that their life spans are very short and lot of other tensions; something like Guru Nanak Dev Ji came when the humans are in University where the humans should only be taught how to quickly implement all the learnt knowledge and go to our true home............Gyani ji said that the rules are for the human but when rules start to eat the human, then it is time to leave that rule.....due to this Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught only the concept/techniques which could be utilized by anyone (any caste, creed, religion).

 

das

[kdsingh80]

3 hours ago, Pakandi -Baba said:

A lot of it did. Plus Sikhs had Moghuls to contend with so had less time to spread the message as the priority was staying alive. Do some research. What has these days got do with anything.

 

Malaysia and Indonesia never got invaded yet they are muslims 

Quote

Muslim missionaries played a key role in the spread of Islam in India with some missionaries even assuming roles as merchants or traders. For example, in the 9th century, the Ismailis sent missionaries across Asia in all directions under various guises, often as traders, Sufis and merchants. Ismailis were instructed to speak potential converts in their own language. Some Ismaili missionaries traveled to Indiaand employed effort to make their religion acceptable to the Hindus. For instance, they represented Ali as the tenth avatar of Vishnu and wrote hymns as well as a mahdi purana in their effort to win converts.^[24] At other times, converts were won in conjunction with the propagation efforts of rulers. According to Ibn Batuta, the Khiljis encouraged conversion to Islam by making it a custom to have the convert presented to the Sultan who would place a robe on the convert and award him with bracelets of gold.^[33] During Ikhtiyar Uddin Bakhtiyar Khilji's control of theBengal, Muslim missionaries in India achieved their greatest success, in terms of number of converts to Islam.^[34]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam

[kdsingh80]

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Gyani ji said that the rules are for the human but when rules start to eat the human, then it is time to leave that rule.....due to this Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught only the concept/techniques which could be utilized by anyone (any caste, creed, religion).

The above is one of the reason Sikhi never spread , if a person can follow sikhi just by going to Gurdwara and reading bani then why will he formally convert to sikhi

[das]

35 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said:

The above is one of the reason Sikhi never spread , if a person can follow sikhi just by going to Gurdwara and reading bani then why will he formally convert to sikhi

You're missing the point here. The reason for any religion is to help us to go to our true home.

A car is a car which could be used to travel from one point to another. The time we get into the habit of pinpointing why Honda-Civic (car make and model) is more on road as compared to Maruti and how could we increase the presence of one model over the other on the road; at this point we already lost the true meaning of car. Our concern should have been on how to make sure that people are transported from one point to another in a safer and more appropriate way. There isn't any need to convert the user of first model to another. One should use whatever works for them.

In other words, the correct question should have been "Why knowledge failed to spread" instead of "Why Sikhi failed to spread"? and the answer is simple, we have tried to Own the knowledge by defining the boundaries.

But if the intention is to exercise the already wandering mind, then the original title is perfect.

[kdsingh80]

2 minutes ago, das said:

You're missing the point here. The reason for any religion is to help us to go to our true home.

A car is a car which could be used to travel from one point to another. The time we get into the habit of pinpointing why Honda-Civic (car make and model) is more on road as compared to Maruti and how could we increase the presence of one model over the other on the road; at this point we already lost the true meaning of car. Our concern should have been on how to make sure that people are transported from one point to another in a safer and more appropriate way. There isn't any need to convert the user of first model to another. One should use whatever works for them.

In other words, the correct question should have been "Why knowledge failed to spread" instead of "Why Sikhi failed to spread"? and the answer is simple, we have tried to Own the knowledge by defining the boundaries.

But if the intention is to exercise the already wandering mind, then the original title is perfect.

A religion also need to survive and expand so more and more people can benefit from it.Imagine if in 18th century instead of fighting wars Sikhs had decided to go to some corner of India and do bhagti then sikhism could had been wiped out then

[das]

Exactly that's the dilemma.....read my today's original message (It is very hard to come to a concrete conclusion about this because everything is Changing continuously (the only truth is the Change and God). Some rules are mandatory to protect the philosophy but at the same time, the rules always try to become the philosophy because of the continuous corruption by Maya.), we need to find the balance which would be impossible unless we raise ourselves Spiritually.

Religion/Rules are needed so that the core Philosophy is not lost, but at the same time the rules should not become the religion itself and all the stress is on rules. It needs to be balanced because it is Maya's.

As per Guru Gobind Singh Ji (in Bachitar Natak): a religion spreads only if HIS/WAHEGURU's support is present. It (religion) does not spread because of our own hardwork. But it doesn't mean that we need to stop the hard-work to spread it, but do it with proper mindset.

[kdsingh80]

Quote

As per Guru Gobind Singh Ji (in Bachitar Natak): a religion spreads only if HIS/WAHEGURU's support is present. It (religion) does not spread because of our own hardwork. But it doesn't mean that we need to stop the hard-work to spread it, but do it with proper mindset.

Practical ways are also created by waheguru and if religion survive through that means then it means it is also God's will.

I am reading Hari Ram Gupta's history of sikhs and it is written in that after Banda sikhs were in very bad shape  .Hunger , mughals  no place to live  death was looking sureshot . At that time they decided to do looting in order to survive , not only that anybody who used to tell about sikhs whereabout they used to take everything away from and kill all their family members.Now where is the gurmatt in the above , but because of these things they survived and paved way for future generation to establish khalsa raj  and whatever Sikhism we see today.

 

So can we say that it was waheguru's will that sikh do that ?

[das]

Yes, eventually everything is the Will of God. Period.

That was survival technique and has nothing to do with Spirituality. Either I'm not expressing myself clearly or you're just bringing the Shakti factor into without understanding the source of it.

I will give you couple of examples where thousands converted to Sikhi but using a different approach:

The yesterday Saints (Rare-wale, Nanaksar-wale, Mustane-wale, Hoti-Mardan-wale) especially Hoti-Mardan wale came in a time when the population of Sikhs were decreasing day by day. The Saints neither beg nor created the atmosphere where people are forced to have aggresive ideas (katar-panthi); the Saints just did the parchar of knowledge (Spiritual gyan) without asking anyone to convert and the result was lakhs of people converted. Then Yogi Harbhajan Singh came to USA and he started preaching the Spiritual knowledge without asking anyone to convert; but thousands of gore did convert to Sikhi.

These days the parcharaks either just beg or vomit the katar-panthi views by giving the examples from 10th Guru's time and just ignore the first 9 Gurus. This is the problem.

So, from my point of view, this should be the plan: Do the parchar for the sake of imparting knowledge and not to get the converts; knowledge will bring people to Sikhi (learners and not katar-panthi). After-all the source of Shakti is also the Knowledge/God. This is very crucial point that needs to be understood.

 

[Ragmaala]

37 minutes ago, das said:

The yesterday Saints (Rare-wale, Nanaksar-wale, Mustane-wale, Hoti-Mardan-wale) especially Hoti-Mardan wale came in a time when the population of Sikhs were decreasing day by day.

This is from bachans of  of Baba Ishar Singh Ji kaleran wale. Baba Ji was loving & dear to all communities & faiths , 1940s-1960s.  One time Baba JI was invited by communists/atheists to do a diwan. By the end of diwan, thousands of non-believers/atheists/communists became believers & raised their hands & promised to do nitnem & take amrit.

Baba Ji was given dargahi duty to do parchar, he had power, thats why his bachans worked. If you ever listen to his tapes carefully, you will notice that Baba Ji often solved the questions of devotees through clairvoyance. Baba ji displayed partakh shakti in diwans, all under the hukam of Guru Nanak.  He did a lot of amrit sanchar (7.5 lakh) in a short period of time, before he was called back to Dargah.

The need of the hour is that we need Mahapurukhs straight from Dargah.  And God will do that, once he see its necessary like he did during 1930s when so many mahapurakhs appeared, as mentioned by das.

And yes a lot depends on the kamai & jeevan of Parcharak.

 

[Ragmaala]

And it is the kamai of yesteryears saints that Sikh is still spreading today, and youths are getting motivated.

For example, Nanaksar has spread out a lot in west, US, Canada, Africa, England etc. Its the barkat of Baba Nand Singh & Baba Ishar Singh,

Look at damdami taksal. Look at the sacrifice of Sant Jarnai Singh & their role is warrior aspect. Youth are getting inspired from that.

Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib, & their followers....they have spread so much gyan...

pretty much any successful tradition, there was an important sant behind it..and it goes on

Taksal created many scholars & kathavachaks... etc

Kamai is of utmost importance. If you want to win the world, win your mind first.

 

[kdsingh80]

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

And it is the kamai of yesteryears saints that Sikh is still spreading today, and youths are getting motivated.

For example, Nanaksar has spread out a lot in west, US, Canada, Africa, England etc. Its the barkat of Baba Nand Singh & Baba Ishar Singh,

Look at damdami taksal. Look at the sacrifice of Sant Jarnai Singh & their role is warrior aspect. Youth are getting inspired from that.

Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib, & their followers....they have spread so much gyan...

pretty much any successful tradition, there was an important sant behind it..and it goes on

Taksal created many scholars & kathavachaks... etc

Kamai is of utmost importance. If you want to win the world, win your mind first.

 

Islam is spreading like wildfire , they have now even entered Europe, their birth rate is highest , So by your logic their Sufis must had biggest kamai than any other religion

 

Also Ram raheem from 90s has converted millions single handedly , he must have very big kamai

[paapiman]

22 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said:

Also Ram raheem from 90s has converted millions single handedly , he must have very big kamai

Bro, there are other ways to convert people too. Please have a look below:

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kdsingh80 said:

Islam is spreading like wildfire , they have now even entered Europe, their birth rate is highest , So by your logic their Sufis must had biggest kamai than any other religion

 

Also Ram raheem from 90s has converted millions single handedly , he must have very big kamai

If you want to change someones life for better, here and thereafter, you def, need kamai.   What will happen to muslims & rahims followers cant be guaranteed.

 

[kdsingh80]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Bro, there are other ways to convert people too. Please have a look below:

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

Oh please just accept the fact that Ram raheem better approached  dalits and other communitties that were feeling alienated by Sikhism and Hinduism.

[Ragmaala]

One way to spread is through quality, which is usually done by kamai , as extensively explained by das.

Another way is through quantity, which can be done if state-sponsored, like how rahim is a government agent.

Another is through persecution, reproducing like pigs, sharia and years of brainwashing. It does help if a country is rich.

But the ultimate questions is :

is the purpose of SIkhi to increase its numbers on this planet earth or to take billions of souls back to sachkhand ?

When some people asked similar question to Baba Ishar Singh Ji kaleran regarding going down numbers of sikhi, Baba Ji would say that Sikhi will always be in Chardikala...nit nit chade savayi....kamjori tuhade dil vich hai...the fear & weakness lie in your hearts.

This is the Panth of Akal Purakh, low in numbers, but will never be extinct. Those who think sikhi will become extinct are  ik number de beckoof lol.

 

 

[dalsingh101]

I don't think we'll ever get completely extinct, but in my opinion, to play down, or ignore, or make light of issues of growth and expansion is majorly foolish. This WILL have a number of extremely negative effects on us in a number of ways. 

 

Plus we need to remember that we are not solely a spiritual panth, we have a strong political and social element too. It's our failure to truly live up to, and then project our social structure that is one of the biggest causes of lack of spreading in my opinion. Instead of the physically confident,  progressive, egalitarian, merit driven societal structure we were taught to aspire to, we've replaced it with an unjust, hierarchical, Panjabi pendu feudalism ill suited to the modern world and detrimental to our heartland. I mean look at how this factor has played a major part in people repeatedly voting in Badal based on some deranged caste affiliation for instance. 

 

That all being said, some people are getting more and more interested in Sikhi - surprisingly in America of all places?!?!?! Europe will always be a Godless place and the only promotion we seem to get here in the UK is as some sort of loyal lapdogs, worthy of tolerating because of their meek, undemanding ways, and readiness to have a drink up. A people who can readily be brought along with any schemes with just a smallest amount of insincere flattery. 

 

 

[das]

5 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

Also Ram raheem from 90s has converted millions single handedly , he must have very big kamai

This is the prime example from which Sikh preachers should learn......you seems to be intellectual oriented, even from your perpective we should be ashamed of ourselves that even Ram raheem is able to understand how to attract crowds, but we dumbasses have not understood........Basically, your example of Ram raheem has again verified the fact that in order to convert (or say retain Sikhi) the preachers must preach the philophosy of Sikhism (equality for all) and not the same argument....we're decreasing, so let's do something.

Let me give you a very practical example: Let's imagine that someone is Non-Sikh but willing to learn something about God (not dogmatic religion) and searched couple of youtube videos and opened the first link of a top katakar of Sikh and boom after listening to the first 10 minutes, he skips the video because kathakar is just complaining about the minority issues and then boosting of history and eventually asking to take the Amrit.......what do you think; will the seeker come back to Sikh videos.....I guess Not...............on the other hand, he opened a link where a person was explaining the Philosophy of God....hmm, he will stay to listen the whole video.......and later on he might be insterested in becoming part of the group/religion of the preacher..........bottom line is: to put in your terms.....Marketing the religion.

Try to understand the timings in real sense........you cannot convert because you were brave and fought against the evil forces, you cannot convert without the Philosophy......The defination of Religion is the Rules around the Philosophy and not the other way around.

See around you today's Radha-soamis, Ram raheems, Muslims and many others are successful only because they understand the working of mind and understand that people like philosophy, stories, and promises. Get the real handle on the situation and not just the talk.

Regarding Politics, modern Sikhs are far behind that not because they are less in number, its because they don't understand how to play politics. Politics are played and its a kala/skill. Learn that skill first.

[kdsingh80]

7 hours ago, das said:

This is the prime example from which Sikh preachers should learn......you seems to be intellectual oriented, even from your perpective we should be ashamed of ourselves that even Ram raheem is able to understand how to attract crowds, but we dumbasses have not understood........Basically, your example of Ram raheem has again verified the fact that in order to convert (or say retain Sikhi) the preachers must preach the philophosy of Sikhism (equality for all) and not the same argument....we're decreasing, so let's do something.

Let me give you a very practical example: Let's imagine that someone is Non-Sikh but willing to learn something about God (not dogmatic religion) and searched couple of youtube videos and opened the first link of a top katakar of Sikh and boom after listening to the first 10 minutes, he skips the video because kathakar is just complaining about the minority issues and then boosting of history and eventually asking to take the Amrit.......what do you think; will the seeker come back to Sikh videos.....I guess Not...............on the other hand, he opened a link where a person was explaining the Philosophy of God....hmm, he will stay to listen the whole video.......and later on he might be insterested in becoming part of the group/religion of the preacher..........bottom line is: to put in your terms.....Marketing the religion.

Try to understand the timings in real sense........you cannot convert because you were brave and fought against the evil forces, you cannot convert without the Philosophy......The defination of Religion is the Rules around the Philosophy and not the other way around.

See around you today's Radha-soamis, Ram raheems, Muslims and many others are successful only because they understand the working of mind and understand that people like philosophy, stories, and promises. Get the real handle on the situation and not just the talk.

Regarding Politics, modern Sikhs are far behind that not because they are less in number, its because they don't understand how to play politics. Politics are played and its a kala/skill. Learn that skill first.

I agree with you that by explaining the philosophy of sikhism we can convert , but the problem with sikhism unlike others is that sikhs expect a new convert to take amrit in sikhism while 95-99% their  are not amrit dhari's

Let me give you an example their is a hindu guy in our Gurdwara he is part of management committee , he sometimes give lectures on sikhism and then he go straight forward langar hall and do sewa, apart from 1-2 other persons I have not seen this type of shradha from anybody , not even from Amritdhari's , now who is he ? In the eyes of most sikhs he is Hindu and chances are his children will be raised as hindu's

 

On the other hand sites like sikhchic still have articles on Nikki haley, not only that there are 10 comments apologetic about Haley I read their. In other words Sikhs still see Nikki Haley as their own even though she publically disown her religion while the guy above is Hindu in the eyes of sikhs.

 

I can tell you in India you will not 1 but many many Hindu's which have so much faith in Gurdwara but they don't formally convert.The problem with sikhism is that they are running after their children  while shooing away potential converts.

 There should be a formal ceremony to enter sikhism in sahajdhari form so that sense of sikh identity can  be inserted in the people which have faith and shradha in Gurughar

 

[das]

11 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

I agree with you that by explaining the philosophy of sikhism we can convert , but the problem with sikhism unlike others is that sikhs expect a new convert to take amrit in sikhism while 95-99% their  are not amrit dhari's

100% agree.

11 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

Let me give you an example their is a hindu guy in our Gurdwara he is part of management committee , he sometimes give lectures on sikhism and then he go straight forward langar hall and do sewa, apart from 1-2 other persons I have not seen this type of shradha from anybody , not even from Amritdhari's , now who is he ? In the eyes of most sikhs he is Hindu and chances are his children will be raised as hindu's

See, first of all, the identity (a product of Ego) is under the realm of Mind/Maya. Secondly, if a Non-Hindu converts to Sikhism with Sikh identity including Amrit, even then the converted-person would be referred as converted (Previously Hindu and now Sikh) by the person who knew him/her before. It means that we (in general) relate the identity first with the identity at the time of birth. In other words, the identity at birth holds more importance as long as we reside within the community of known persons. But the problem is that: we cannot control the identity at birth (some people say that Sikhs should start having more children, that's also bullshit).

The whole point is: Instead of looking for active converts from other religions, one should give more importance to refining the lectures so that our current children does not get carried away to other religions. In other words, we cannot pursue other potential converts but without guarding our own children. The teachings should start at home......Children should be taught the philosophy of Spirituality......e.g 90% parents themselves don't have time, they don't have the knowledge of their own religion........e.g if a child asks why we shouldn't cut our hairs, the parents tell because we're Sikhs.......children are like is that a punishment? if a child asks why we cannot have sex outside of marriage, why we cannot eat meat (or say non-chatka), why we go to Gurudwara.........to all of these questions, most of the time, parents say because we're Guru's Sikh or something along that line (in more confusing form).

Bottom-line is: Stick to your at-birth Dharma/Religion (if possible) because that might be the best possible way to progress at that point-in-time; and also try to learn the philosophy of Spirituality and your religion. If we're educated, only then we can educate our children. Otherwise, this life would be just a Race in which one wins and the other looses....just a matter of time!!!

That being said, if someone is willing to convert, then he/she should be treated well and allowed. There should be a freedom to choose, after-all God give us the Freewill.

[kdsingh80]

17 minutes ago, das said:

The whole point is: Instead of looking for active converts from other religions, one should give more importance to refining the lectures so that our current children does not get carried away to other religions. In other words, we cannot pursue other potential converts but without guarding our own children

This is where I disagree .We should look for  active converts and also teach children.Each person is born with unique personality and despite teaching him/her he/she may follow different path. Several of Guru's Children did not follow Sikhi , few even rebelled against it did Guru's ran after them

Yesterday I was talking with Bhua who spent much of her time in Gurdwara. she was telling me about a lady who has 2 sons , 1 is sardar and other is Mona and what is surpising is that Sardar's son is 13-14 year old and is Mona while Mona's daughter is 10-11 year old  and she has taken Amrit at her own will. .

 

No matter what we do their will be children who will follow sikhi just by identity , some even disown that a few will follow sikhi by heart.Also please keep in mind sikh birth rate is very low perhaps at present 1.5 , which means sikh population will go negative in future