paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) - If the stories were just about warning men about women, why no similar warning for women about men seeing as men can be just as manipulative and moreso when it comes to sex?Correct me if I am wrong, there are certain charitars which warn women, about men too. Have you read the entire Gurbani or not?Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 9, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 - why the need to be overtly descriptive, as in pornographic stories? Was it needed to describe sex acts in such detail?The charitars are not very descriptive, if we look at today's times, where so much porn is available.Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Okay, lets say this is correct... where is the similar stories to warn innocent Singhnis that not ALL men are chivalrous and well intentioned when they proclaim love? Where are all the stories of men seducing women for sex? I didn't see any of that in Dasam Granth when I read it. Only vast majority stories were about women doing the seducing. Read Gurbani tuks above and you will find your answer. Gurbani has warned women too.One needs plenty of knowledge of Gurbani, before one can start to understand Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee.Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) - If the intent is only to warn about 'some' women. Then why is the title the 'Wiles of women' and not 'wiles of some women'? If the warning is only about a minority of women, then why so much emphasis on it that it takes 40% of the overall dasam granth? Do you know, what the words "Charitar" and "pakhian" mean? Have you done your research properly?Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 9, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 - If the warning was only about a minority of women... then this just hurt natural relations between males and females because males would always be distrustful of women and treat them accordingly. If a male starts distrusting all women, then the weakness is in him, not Gurbani.Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Certainly you can't discount though, that since majority of Sikhs cant possibly know the true meaning (since you all seem to think it's some hidden thing) then the outward effect is still going to be conditioning of the male mind to that of contempt towards females? Read enough stories condemning women as is portrayed there, and eventually you will believe that is how women are, and start treating women as such. So whether or not that was the original intended meaning, that is and has been the actual outcome. Read the above post made by N30, he has answered your question. Are you reading other people's posts properly?Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 1) that it cant be taken literally... it's allegory for the male / female principle inherent in ALL / God. - But several on here have opposed this in favour of a literal meaning Can you please list those posts, where people have stated that there are no deeper meanings to Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee?Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 2) that it's literally intending to paint women as the evil in the world, and warning men. - If this is true, is it trying to create contempt towards women in men, and self loathing in women? So, according to your line of thinking, the above tuks from SSGGSJ paint men as evil in the world? Are they trying to create contempt towards men, in women?Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 The Charitro Pakhyan is katha of the 5 vices. It gives narrations on how the 5 vices manifest in real life - violence, lustful conduct, ego, attachment leading to war etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibrute Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) This again.Sri Dasam Granth Jee is a gift to khalsa by their beloved father and teacher Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj. Everything written in it is blessing for us, case is that our minds are habitual in searching for faults and wants to pat its ego if he found one. Its like ant mentality, ant may walk on wall but always searches for burrows on it. Everything written on Sri Dasam Granth Jee has a reason, we should be more trusting towards Guru Maharaj. 1.Q why the need to be overtly descriptive, as in pornographic stories? Was it needed to describe sex acts in such detailA. Guru Maharaj knows the power of pen, details of acts are there because if you can't control yourself and urges while reading in comfort of your room, how can you control if that situation really happens. It teaches to control your senses when Sexual energy is at peak, and stops us to be slave of sexual drive at every opportunity we get. Every Singh at the said time was not Baba Deep Singh Jee, they need to be told these things. 2.Q If the stories were just about warning men about women, why no similar warning for women about men seeing as men can be just as manipulative and moreso when it comes to sex?A. You have to read between the lines, who are these men you talking about, these are battered soldiers, already few in number fighting huge armies with full resources at disposal. Under the influence of hunger, sleepless night and what not. For enemy each and every Singh matters, women can be used to dissuade these Singhs from their purpose, hence the stories. Also who were these women, these women were under pressure or doing it for money. Guru Sahib was warning about these women as vile, NOT talking about "God" loving women (high moral values) in general. 3. Q If the intent is only to warn about 'some' women. Then why is the title the 'Wiles of women' and not 'wiles of some women'? If the warning is only about a minority of women, then why so much emphasis on it that it takes 40% of the overall dasam granth? A. We have to learn to read between lines, "as you say 40%" this is because sexual energy is base of all human energy either takes it upwards or let it drain in toilet. Poor students like me, needs a lot of examples to understand one simple thing, hence so much emphasis. 4. Q Putting THAT much emphasis on warning men about women, and putting THAT much detail about sexual acts etc in there (ie repetition) whether the original intent was meant to or not, it most definitely DOES plant a very negative view of women in the minds of men such that it creates contempt towards women by men. Even if they don't hold contempt directly after reading it, there is enough of a psychological affect there that it would cause men to always be weary of trusting ALL women.A. Yes to avoid this "psychological affect", Khalsa is strictly instructed to do Nitnem and do Simran at all times, to see god in everyone. But this spiritual growth in dependent on individual sikhs and demands time, for them to see god in everyone and to win their vices for sure. Due to impending wars on their heads, they are warned to look for these charitars, as immediate remedy in war times. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib put a lot of focus on raising confidence of khalsa, "Swa lakh se ek laddao" needs groundwork, its not mere words. Thus a lot of mythological figures names were used and in Sri dasam granth people with Singh names were shown to defeat them, sikhism was new at the times and people still have natural fear for other deities of india. So by showing them defeating various muslim and hindu dieties names, it installs a fighting sprit in khalsa to take on anyone in the war. We do say but Sri Guru Granth sahib Maharaj is not only Sikh's Guru, he is whole mankind Guru. Sri Dasam Granth was written as separate to form panth (religious movement), a religious text to unite sikhs from various walks of life and to have a separate identity. But we fools make it a point to divide us. Whose fault is this? Edited July 9, 2015 by ibrute 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 The charitars are not very descriptive, if we look at today's times, where so much porn is available.Bhul chuk maafWhy are you comparing the Chariters and porn?And the Charitars are quite descriptive at times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) The way i look at the Charitars and have said that before on the forum too i believe ...the Khalsa was no traditional army...there were potters washermen brewers and people from all walks of life ..they were not experienced with the art of warfare and had no idea how they would be fooled to be killed.the Mughals are known to use deceit ..if i remember long back i had heard about vishkanya ..vish is poison and kanya is girl..it is said that there use to be units of such women who were used against the enemy..anyone having intercourse with her would die ..i dont know if it was instant or after a certain duration of hours or days .So what i feel is Maharaj has provided knowledge in the Bani of Charitaropakhyan in order to alert men..as to how dangerously an innocent looking woman ..the weaker gender that they were considered could do .Satkirin please understand it is not to demean women..you might want to argue that why was not anything composed to alert women..but we need to go to the facts that almost everyone of the Khalsa unit was a man ..exceptions like Mai Bhago were there but you could count them on your fingers.This is my personal opinion ..and may not be bereft of mistakes ..so bhula chuka muaaf karni ..Siri Akaal ji Sahaai Edited July 9, 2015 by jaikaara 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted July 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Paapiman, you do realize that if a man is enjoying another man's wife... that the wife is also doing wrong. Its speaking against BOTH of them! That is not a specific warning for women about the 'wiles of men' lol Edited July 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) I think Guru ji foresaw modern times where certain cultures (well western culture) swung the pendulum to such an opposite pole (in terms of representing women) that women are now seen as almost absolutely incapable of anything negative. CP reminds us all (women and man) that this is not true. I think you are in denial of the way a lot of women (most?) are infinitely more psychologically complex than men. CP points at men's follies too. Older, powerful men treating younger, pretty women like trophies (hello: Rupert Murdoch/Tony Blair anyone!)Being simple minded and falling victim to a more devious individual.Hell hath no fury like a women scorned etc. Edited July 9, 2015 by dalsingh101 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Paapiman Satkiran has not read Sri charitarpkhyian but instead read missionary sites that misguide sikhs about the bani by using a few tuks here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Paapiman, you do realize that if a man is enjoying another man's wife... that the wife is also doing wrong. Its speaking against BOTH of them! That is not a specific warning for women about the 'wiles of men' lolSimilarly, if a women is enjoying with multiple men, men are at fault too. Stories in Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee are speaking against BOTH of them!Bhul chuk maaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Why are you comparing the Chariters and porn?And the Charitars are quite descriptive at times.If one has watched porn, then the Chariters are not very descriptive.Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted July 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Except Paapiman, the descriptions are are almost exclusively women using deception to coerce men into bed. Thats painting men as victims and women as instigators. In real life its usually the opposite thats true. I cant understand why especially in times where birth control was not available, women would go to such lengths for a quick roll in the hay, and risk their lives for it since childbirth literally was a risk to ones life. All for what? a few seconds of pleasure? Something doesnt add up. At least it's not painting a true picture of society in that time or now. For that reason, the stories MUST be fictional... but anyway, if both were fault and thats what it was trying to say, then why is the title not the "wiles of women and men"? or the "Wiles of sex" or something like that. It's pointing finger directly at women in title, AND as majority of the stories, its women who are instigating. What effect does reading that have on the minds of most men?? Be weary of women (in general) and dont trust them, or give them too much freedom or control. There ARE a few stories where virtuous women are described. But they are few. And then the stories like the horse one ref beastiality just don't even make sense. (Why even mention that to people who most likely wouldnt have even thought of it to begin with?)And Singh123456777 yes I did read it, though admittedly in English translation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Thats painting men as victims and women as instigators. In real life its usually the opposite thats true. I cant understand why especially in times where birth control was not available, women would go to such lengths for a quick roll in the hay, and risk their lives for it since childbirth literally was a risk to ones life. All for what? a few seconds of pleasure? Something doesnt add up.You need to get out more and see the big bad world then... You think there weren't folk contraceptive techniques practiced back then?Hell, even in Roman times, rich powerful women would sneak about to have sex with prominent gladiators. I think CP is well ahead of its times because one of the things it touches on is the sometimes, sudden and intense sexual feelings of women, which they are much better at hiding then men (usually). Women can lose control too you know!In conservative societies, the lustful and sometimes predatory ways of men are well known (and taken for granted), hence all of the steps to reduce the opportunities of it taking place through physical separation and keeping stranger males away from females of ones family (whether this is right or wrong).The shortfall in knowledge concerned the impulses of women in this very respect. CP helped to address that. And no, I don't think CP's portrayal of women suggests that Sikhs at the time thought men were incapable of low, lustful and even murderous behaviour.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Except Paapiman, the descriptions are are almost exclusively women using deception to coerce men into bed. Thats painting men as victims and women as instigators. In real life its usually the opposite thats true. I Not all show, women in the negative light. When will you understand that?How do you know that?Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) And then the stories like the horse one ref beastiality just don't even make sense. (Why even mention that to people who most likely wouldnt have even thought of it to begin with?) It is very important to be aware of what's going on in this world. It is possible, bestiality existed at that time too. It was important that Sikh scholars were made aware of this reality. Most likely, your spiritual level is not high enough to understand this Gurbani. So, please I would humbly request you to work on your spirituality and stop causing confusion in the minds of other people, about this Gurbani.Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 11, 2015 by paapiman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted July 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Not all show, women in the negative light. When will you understand that?How do you know that?Bhul chuk maafI said that a few of the stories showcased virtuous women... but the majority were about vile deceptive lustful women. http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5856/men-want-more-sex/http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/why-are-guys-hornier-than-womenQuoted from the above article: "Because sex could lead to pregnancy and labor—burdens that fall on the female—women evolved to be more selective about who they sleep with. Eastwick says society’s acceptance of men’s dalliances (but not women’s) may also have shaped the strength of a guy’s sexual impulses. As a result, dozens of studies have confirmed that men fool around more than women."http://kinseyconfidential.org/men-sex-women/Quote from the above article: "The authors completed an exhaustive review of relevant research. Some of the studies were more scientifically sound than others, and various research methods were used. The thoughts, emotional experiences, and behavior relating to measurements of sex drive were quite different across the research. The final verdict? They did not find a single study that showed that women had a higher sex drive than men. Some studies indicated very little difference in drive between males and females, but the majority found that men had a higher drive than women. This result was consistent regardless of sexual orientation, across culture, and throughout the lifespan. - See more at: http://kinseyconfidential.org/men-sex-women/#sthash.NHktV4GD.dpuf" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 If you're using Men Health and Marie Claire as if they are some sort of respected information source you might as well quit now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 If you're using Men Health and Marie Claire as if they are some sort of respected information source you might as well quit now.... Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 I said that a few of the stories showcased virtuous women... but the majority were about vile deceptive lustful women. http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5856/men-want-more-sex/http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/why-are-guys-hornier-than-womenQuoted from the above article: "Because sex could lead to pregnancy and labor—burdens that fall on the female—women evolved to be more selective about who they sleep with. Eastwick says society’s acceptance of men’s dalliances (but not women’s) may also have shaped the strength of a guy’s sexual impulses. As a result, dozens of studies have confirmed that men fool around more than women."http://kinseyconfidential.org/men-sex-women/Quote from the above article: "The authors completed an exhaustive review of relevant research. Some of the studies were more scientifically sound than others, and various research methods were used. The thoughts, emotional experiences, and behavior relating to measurements of sex drive were quite different across the research. The final verdict? They did not find a single study that showed that women had a higher sex drive than men. Some studies indicated very little difference in drive between males and females, but the majority found that men had a higher drive than women. This result was consistent regardless of sexual orientation, across culture, and throughout the lifespan. - See more at: http://kinseyconfidential.org/men-sex-women/#sthash.NHktV4GD.dpuf"Scientifically speaking, women enjoy sex more than men.QuoteThe clitoris contains at least 8,000 sensory nerve endings. To put that into perspective, the penis has about 4,000. That makes this tiny area the most sensitive part of a woman’s erogenous zone. And while the clitoris is quite small, its powerful sensations can spread across a woman's pelvic area by affecting 15,000 other nerve endings.Unquote [1][1] - http://www.alternet.org/9-interesting-things-you-may-not-know-about-clitorisThere is scientific evidence available that women are more sensual than men.http://www.sunny99.com/articles/texas-news-489524/woman-are-more-sensual-than-men-13472823/ Women orgasms last longer too.Bhul chuk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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