Please discuss this Gurbani Pankti !

[Ragmaala]

ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥One who worships the Great Goddess Maya

 

 

ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥   What does this mean ?  What are the implications ? What is your understanding of this line ? Why are people who worship Mata born as women in next life ? Is it because they are focusing on a woman form ?   Thus people who worship Genderless Akal Purakh also become Genderless --> Hence Mukat ?

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Ragmaala

[BhagatSingh]

Ragmaala if you can read Punjabi check this out -
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=874&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=2

[Xylitol]

It says this is so b/c the worshipper can only become like the roop of worshipped, hence in this case an istree

[Ragmaala]

Ragmaala if you can read Punjabi check this out -
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=874&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=2

- so the worship of devi doesn't lead to mukti

- one who worships shiva is like someone riding a bull

- So whomever you meditate upon , you will gain the qualities of that person ? If you meditate on devi, you will be born as a woman, although you will not be mukat.  Why as a woman though , because he has internalised the form of devi within himself ?

- is using the example of being born as a woman , to scare the people away from worshipping devi ? if so why should someone be scared of being born as  a woman ?

[ I personally would not want to be reincarnated in first place, but if so then not as a woman due to lack of  physical prowess, too much emotional attachment to family & world, and other restrictions]

 

[ibrute]

Read the translation, Ang 874 SGGS Jee, Whole shabad.

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by ibrute

[sukrit kaur]

I  think (may be I'm wrong) there is nothing to do with gender to attain salvation.IF IT's not,then there would be no great female saints like wife of bhagat kabir ji ,mata sundar kaur ji etc.

Everyone scares of punishments.So if I say that Being born as a woman is a punishment,then it think it's right.It's not the punishment like you cannot attain salvation or something like that.It's punishment in different sense.Infact every soul who takes birth has to carry some pains.If there would be no karms left ,then he might have not got this body.

Some souls get punishment in form of being born as a woman.Because a woman has to go through many emotional and physical pains.like she has to go thru  menstrual cycle every month,then has to carry a child in her womb then major one to give so painful birth to a child.Additionally she gets a weak physical stature compared to men.And other emotional and worldly attachments in form of Mamta with her children.

so that's why it's counted as a punishment.But still it doest not mean she can't attain salvation.Some men are too having their punishments in other forms.Infact everyone's having.Then does it mean They can't attain salvation?

So being born as a woman,one has to face many difficulities to walk easily on their spiritual path,but undoubtedly she can achieve the ultimate truth.All depends upon Maharaj's kirpa.

 

[Ragmaala]

^ I have no doubt that Gender does not play  a role in Spirituality.  All humans, men and women are alike in spiritual sense.

My main question is when Bhagat Ji says if you worship devi you will become a woman , are they saying this because

- being born as a woman is punishment of some sort ??

- or just a neutral statement without any connotation that so and so will happen if you do this and that ?

So far my understanding is that without Naam Simran of Akal Purakh meditating on lower Gods such as Bhairo, Seetla, Shiv Ji & Parbati will lead you astray in various joonis like Bhoot pret, Donkey, riding a bull and reincarnated as a woman in next life.

 

[Xylitol]

No, getting istree roop is not stated as a punishment, just neutrally saying what will happen b/c that is similar to what is being worshipped. The punishment is that you get reborn. Not that it is as a female. 

My previous post is from Prof. Sahib Singh teeka on srigranth.org

[paapiman]

My main question is when Bhagat Ji says if you worship devi you will become a woman , are they saying this because

- being born as a woman is punishment of some sort ??

 

 

Bro, ask yourself, do you want to become a woman in your next life? Daas does not. 

A male body does not have to deal with the hardships, which a female body faces.

-  Menstruation

-  Mood swings

-  Pregnancy (if trying to be a mother) 

-  Postnatal period (after birth)

-  Postmenopausal issues (for some)

-  On average, less physical strength

Bhul chuk maaf

[sukrit kaur]

.My main question is when Bhagat Ji says if you worship devi you will be woman , are they saying this because

- being born as a woman is punishment of some sort ??

- or just a neutral statement without any connotation that so and so will happen if you do this and that ?

It may be a neutral statement,but if it's so then there would be no need to highlight if you do so then wilk be born as a female.

For example:

If a person has to reach a particular place,then he needs a vehicle to travel the distance.let assume there are 4 ones.

Ist one gets a chance to travel in a mercedes.

2nd one gets a chance to travel but can't get a seat.He has to travel the entire distance without much comforts.

3rd one gets chance to travel without any vehicle.He gotta walk on feet.

And fourth one doesnt even get a chance .

Here I take 1st one as male human,2nd one as female human,3rd one as any physically handicapped one or any transgender.

And last one any organism except human.

So Every one will prefer to be the first one.

But it doesnt mean if Ist one is provided with all facilities then definitely gonna reach the destination.He may face an accident.

And In same manner 2nd or 3rd ones can reach their destinations even having difficulities.

So That's why female bodied soul is highlighted in the tuk As If you will worship devi then you'll be born as  awoman and then you will have to face many kind of hardships to meet your lord husband.And A true lover wife wilk never be ready to increase the difficulities between the union with her lord husband.

So , it's regarded as a punishment.But it depends upon an individual woman whether being born as a woman is acting like a punishment to her or not..

Because whatever we say it's little difficult for a woman to live her life like other great saints.Like we know baba nand singh ji never allowed to meet a woman alone,so here we can estimate the advantage of being born as a man over woman.

So only difficulities increases but surely doors are always open and very few determined and brave souls get the chance to reach their destination.

[BhagatSingh]

Ragmaala
1. In that shabad, the basic principle is that who you meditate on, you gain the qualities of.

What you focus on, you become.

If you focus on people's ignorance, you too will become ignorant.
 

2.  Bhagat Namdev ji is also preaching his own religion. He worships Hari, Ram, Krishna.

Bhagat Namdev ji says in the end "With guru's teachings, meditate on Ram, and that the Bhagwad Geeta also says to do this".

He says not to meditate on Gods of other religions.

 

3. Bhagat Namdev ji is advocating certain types of qualities. When he says to meditate on Ram, he says you should become Ram.

(Kabir also says this "Hari jan aisa chahiye jaisa Hari hi hoe)

In the world, be Ram, be purushotam, be a superior man, a high quality spiritual man, who upholds the dharmic values and traditional sanksar of Indian society. In the mind, be formless with expanded awareness. Recognize that atma is everywhere, as parmatma.

[Ragmaala]

Thanks all for your input, mind's queries answered and satisfied now . :)

[CdnSikhGirl]

Ragmaala
1. In that shabad, the basic principle is that who you meditate on, you gain the qualities of.

What you focus on, you become.

If you focus on people's ignorance, you too will become ignorant.
 

2.  Bhagat Namdev ji is also preaching his own religion. He worships Hari, Ram, Krishna.

Bhagat Namdev ji says in the end "With guru's teachings, meditate on Ram, and that the Bhagwad Geeta also says to do this".

He says not to meditate on Gods of other religions.

 

3. Bhagat Namdev ji is advocating certain types of qualities. When he says to meditate on Ram, he says you should become Ram.

(Kabir also says this "Hari jan aisa chahiye jaisa Hari hi hoe)

In the world, be Ram, be purushotam, be a superior man, a high quality spiritual man, who upholds the dharmic values and traditional sanksar of Indian society. In the mind, be formless with expanded awareness. Recognize that atma is everywhere, as parmatma.

EXACTLY THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You hit the nail on the head EXACTLY!!!!

"1. In that shabad, the basic principle is that who you meditate on, you gain the qualities of.

What you focus on, you become."

We should be focusing on the FORMLESS, ONE Creator... Akal Purakh, Waheguru Ji.  Only when we focus on God alone will we become like God!!!!  We should not even be thinking about minor physical differences in humans or how to oppress some while giving others privileges!  This HUMAN life is precious and rare!  We should not waste it trying to justify who is above who and who deserves more privileges than others.  Instead, we should work to see the divine light in ALL and only focus on Waheguru Ji alone!  That's precisely WHY we need to treat EVERY human as God. By doing that we are focusing on Creator and NOT the physical character that is in play. By focusing on these differences and coming up with more and more ways to justify some gaining while some lose out, we will only further BECOME THESE DIFFERENCES!!!

 

[paapiman]

Thanks all for your input, mind's queries answered and satisfied now . :)

Bro, please listen to the katha regarding the shabad, which you posted. 

-  If a person's upashna (worship) is completed, then the person becomes like the deity, which is being worshiped.

-  If the upashna is not completed, then the person becomes the vehicle of the deity.

Please listen from the beginning.

http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04-Katha/13-Giani Thakur Singh Ji (Patiala Wale)/Katha Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/CD10(Ang0748-0885)/0842-Ang-0874-Pankti-13.mp3

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

^ WOW amazing explanation, thanks for the link paapiman

[BhagatSingh]

The beginning is good, ie the basic explanation of that shabad. I like the explanation overall but one thing, Giani ji doesn't mention is that these are different religions with their unique theology, with their unique worldview.

There is inter-religious dialogue.

There are dynamics between these religious groups.

There is also a desire for the leaders of those relgiious groups to have their members be strict towards the religion and the leaders they have chosen. This is not for selfish reasons (at least not all the time), more on this later.

So Bhagat Namdev ji, being a guru, being a leader, wants his followers to stick to his given path.

In doing so he is using rhetoric to drill his message so that his followers don't wander off to other religions.

In the next shabad after this one, Bhagat Namdevji critcizes people for wandering through different religions.

This is because when you simply wander through, you don't actually benefit froim the religion, you are simply wasting your own time and wasting the time of the guru, who is there to teach you something.

It's like taking cooking class, but before you can learn to make bread, you go into drawing class, but before you can draw a square, you go to dance class.... waste of time.

Bhagat Namdev ji is seeing this pattern a lot with many people he meets. And in these two shabads (in the one Ragmaala listed and the one after it) he is discouraging this type of wandering, constantly changing paths.

Coming back to what Giani ji  says towards the end "eh aam bandeya de samjhan di gal ni hai" because they are too busy with daily life and that these things are very difficult to understand. He says that when he learn katha he was required to learn these things.

The job of a brahmin/pandit/giani is specialized, you have to train yourself by studying religious texts quite a bit before you become a true scholar.

This is very true.

There is no need to focus on these things if one is not concerned much with studying theology / inter-religious dialogue / rhetoric/ history  or if one simply doesn't have time to devote to these things.

Unless you are prepared to spend years learning everything to understand the contents of the shabad, focus on the message instead.

Message is what?

Chant Ram naam with your heart. That's it.