Man catches wife cheating

[dalsingh101]

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhbRr9e7xJBx447YfB

[paapiman]

Long time ago, a scholar narrated an incident about a Singh, who caught his wife cheating. The Singh saw her in a Jacuzzi, with a friend of his. A neighbor had tipped him off earlier. The Singh called the lady's mother and brother and showed them actual real time evidence. This unethical lady was playing a heinous Charitar with the Singh.

It is very heart breaking that such horrible events are occurring among Amritdhairs too. Daas is aware of four other cases.

Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee can teach people about indications/signs of a cheating spouse. Given the times (Kaljug), it is very critical that the superficial layers of this Gurbani are explored deeply, in order to prevent destruction of lives.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

In India, people get instant justice right there.

Here you see a husband getting caught apparently,

 

 

[Ragmaala]

^ The wife breaks a carrom board on husband.

All the village bibian join in the party , taking part in beatings & wailing their lungs out.

[GurpreetKaur]

16 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

In India, people get instant justice right there.

Here you see a husband getting caught apparently,

 

 

Did you laugh while watching it? 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Those women slap like kids.  I'd hang him by his you know whats if I was her!  Not slap like a kid... 

 

 

...Actually... its more likely I'd probably feel hugely betrayed and end my life.  Marriage is commitment for life.  I don't think there is any way possible to reconcile once cheating happens. Precisely because sex is more than a physical act to produce children. 

[paapiman]

Humble request to Sangat - Please view the video posted by Ragmaala jee, for educational purposes only. Please do not laugh, while watching the video. Any human can make a mistake. A Sikh must never laugh at the misery of someone. Remember the sakhi of Baba Joga Singh jee and the below tuk.

 

ANG 1364

ਅਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥੩੯॥

Your boat is still out at sea; who knows what will happen? ||39||

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurpreetKaur]

9 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

Those women slap like kids.  I'd hang him by his you know whats if I was her!  Not slap like a kid... 

 

 

...Actually... its more likely I'd probably feel hugely betrayed and end my life.  Marriage is commitment for life.  I don't think there is any way possible to reconcile once cheating happens. Precisely because sex is more than a physical act to produce children. 

I would do two things, either commit suicide or go to India and become a sanyasi depend if I have no kids. They were not slapping like kids, that board got to hurt lol. 

[GurpreetKaur]

6 hours ago, paapiman said:

Humble request to Sangat - Please view the video posted by Ragmaala jee, for educational purposes only. Please do not laugh, while watching the video. Any human can make a mistake. A Sikh must never laugh at the misery of someone. Remember the sakhi of Baba Joga Singh jee and the below tuk.

 

ANG 1364

ਅਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥੩੯॥

Your boat is still out at sea; who knows what will happen? ||39||

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I confess I laughed but not at their misery, the environment and how women were pitt chati. But you are right my boat is still outta sea. 

[paapiman]

24 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

I would do two things, either commit suicide or go to India and become a sanyasi depend if I have no kids. They were not slapping like kids, that board got to hurt lol. 

Committing suicide will be against Sikh principles, especially in this case. Becoming a Sanyasi is a better option sis.

Every soul's (any gender) husband is the Almighty Lord, Waheguru. Keep complete faith in him.

 

ANG 483

ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰੋ ਪਿਰੁ ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਬਹੁਰੀਆ॥

God is my Husband and I am God's bride.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

12 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

 

...Actually... its more likely I'd probably feel hugely betrayed and end my life.  Marriage is commitment for life.  I don't think there is any way possible to reconcile once cheating happens. Precisely because sex is more than a physical act to produce children. 

Bit of an over reaction.....

 

I get that anyone would be devastated under those circumstances but you'd heal up and move on in time. 

 

Unless you become one of those perpetually bitter women about it. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

Bit of an over reaction.....

 

I get that anyone would be devastated under those circumstances but you'd heal up and move on in time. 

 

Unless you become one of those perpetually bitter women about it. 

Not likely. I can't even fathom it. It would be the biggest betrayal anyone can experience. My husband and I have a huge spiritual / emotional connection way beyond anything physical. I am sure I never have to worry about it but just thinking how badly that would hurt ..one can't even put in words.  I know you guys think I hate men and such... Well I don't. And I love my husband more than I thought it was possible to love someone. I'd do anything for him. And he would do the same for me.  So for me, I can't imagine enduring that kind of betrayal. 

Just please everyone on here, don't ever think of doing such a thing to your other half.  This is my proof that sex is not merely a physical act for producing a baby and physical pleasure.  It's a very deep connection to your spouse on multiple levels. If it were just for producing babies with the side effect of physical pleasure, that in my mind reduces the act to something trivial. Something trivial could never create such deep bonding and emotions and spiritual connection between two people.  Just please don't ever think of cheating on your spouse. 

[GurpreetKaur]

29 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

. I'd do anything for him

Awwwww.. Nice.

Men on this forum be like," no, you won't as long as women's right banner is nearby" :p

[CdnSikhGirl]

1 hour ago, GurpreetKaur said:

Awwwww.. Nice.

Men on this forum be like," no, you won't as long as women's right banner is nearby" :p

The graphic I found earlier says it best. 

"I do not hate men. I hate assholes. There is a difference!"

Assholes seek to limit women. 

Men seek to empower women.  

My husband is a Man :) 

 

[BhagatSingh]

5 hours ago, GurpreetKaur said:

Awwwww.. Nice.

Men on this forum be like," no, you won't as long as women's right banner is nearby" :p

It is true that while a typical feminist might do anything for her husband, she might even maintain the house and prepare healthy meals for him, what she won't do is the thing he absolutely needs because she has been taught to see it as oppression.

What her husband absolutely needs to his core from his wife, is for his wife to show him respect and obedience.

Instead of seeing it as "a way God made him" or "male nature or wiring" or even "just his biological limitations", a feminist has been brainwashed to think of this as oppression. She will gladly accept love and gifts from her husband but she won't reciprocate in a manner in which he feels reciprocated - respect and obedience, which is the equivalent of love, commitment, support etc for women.

While feminists will gladly talk about empowering women, they will hardly talk about empowering their husband, their fatheir, their brothers, their sons, and other men in their societies.

 

As opposed to an egalitarian woman (below), who understands quote on quote "Charitropakhyan" better than many Sikh women.

"Feminine wiles, while they can certainly be used to negative and devious ends, are nothing more than a tool.  In essence, they are Girl Game.  Just like Game, they are going to be used to the end goal of the user, for either good or bad, but in and of themselves, they are not a bad thing.  Feminine wiles are a woman’s power.  They are what she covertly uses to influence her man, or any man, to get what she wants.  It is what any particular woman might want that a man has to be careful of.  If her end game is to increase her ability to love, the her manipulation or influence of her man is a very good thing.  If her end game is a large house with granite counter tops, then one wants to be very wary of any feminine wiles she might employ.

I use feminine wiles often to produce the effect I desire (my husband knows darn well what I’m doing, too.  This is a good thing.)  I manipulate his senses with baked cookies. I entice him to more sleep with pretty nightgowns (haha!)  If he really needs the sleep, I employ his beautiful daughters to give me ideas on how to help Daddy get more sleep so he’s not too tired during the day (right in front of him, of course).  I don’t do this harshly or in any way nagging.  It’s done as a matter of fact and he appreciates what I am trying to do for him.  I know darn well that a “Come to bed” will fall on deaf ears, but a “Why is Daddy so tired?” will soften him to go to bed a bit earlier that evening.  It’s also a very gentle way for me to tell him something he really does not want to hear (Maritus hates to sleep as it’s a waste of precious time that he could use to read or do something else he loves)."

https://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/feminine-wiles/

[BhagatSingh]

16 hours ago, paapiman said:

Humble request to Sangat - Please view the video posted by Ragmaala jee, for educational purposes only. Please do not laugh, while watching the video. Any human can make a mistake. A Sikh must never laugh at the misery of someone. Remember the sakhi of Baba Joga Singh jee and the below tuk.

Bro laughter is in response to quick release of tension in the body. In normal people, it has nothing to do with laughing at someone's misery.

It is better to let it out and laugh rather than hold it in and feel guilty.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Rather BOTH husband and wife should be obedient to each other (we're talking about fidelity etc) but NOBODY should be barking orders at each other. And NOBODY has authority over the other.

Husband and Wife should respect EACH OTHER

Husband and wife should OBEY each other's wishes as much as possible. 

NEITHER should be forced into subordination beneath the other.  If a man is barking orders at his wife, wanting someone to just obey his every whim, maybe not even every whim, its just the idea of putting his wife secondary to himself, and making himself the king of the castle so to speak while putting her in inferior position. That is wrong. 

I do what I can for husband when he asks. But I also expect that he in return does the same for me when I ask.  There is no hierarchy. 

See the difference?  We are co-heirs to our life together. Not a Master and servant. 

If a man really wants someone to be obedient to him, hire domestic help. 

Women HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE being put into subordinate position, and expected to 'obey' it removes the humanity from us, and treats us like nothing more than a servant, like our own wishes and desires in the marriage mean nothing while his are all priority. And sure he might give gifts etc.  But its the expectation of obedience, which is itself demeaning.  I don't know why you can't see that.  In any other position situation jobs etc. the person has a chance to advance and even surpass their supervisors. So 'obeying' is never seen as something inflicted on someone for life just because.  But you are expecting a woman to basically throw down her life completely to be "obedient" which is akin to slavery. - A slave master might treat a slave very very very well. But no matter what, the issue of their slavery remains, and so the situation remains one of hopelessness. 

Given a choice of gifts, good treatment for obedience and subjugation, or freedom, nearly ALL humans male or female will choose freedom  - if given the choice. 

So, while you as a man might love the idea of an 'obedient' wife, really think about how that makes her feel. Even though you might treat her like a Queen, just the fact of the expectation of obedience she will be suffering (most likely in silence, crying when alone) because she has lost her freedom as an individual to you. You might get kicks and feel good about ordering her around, but I guarantee she will be suffering inside.  

Men who REALLY care about their wives will NEVER demand obedience because it outright outlines that men are superior and women are inferior. That men say what goes and women simply obey. Life becomes for the men, and the women are no better than servants of slaves. 

Is it not better to have MUTUAL respect and MUTUAL obedience (as in fidelity) and trying to fufill each other's wishes as equals?? 

And sorry men also need love, and women also need respect and obedience too.  And all of these things can coexist on both sides.  If they couldn't then explain how my husband and I are so connected on deepest levels??? He doesn't treat me like a servant expecting me to 'obey' his every whim.  Though I do what I can when he ASKS (never demands), and he also does the same for me when I ASK. But we respect that each other has our own limitations and wishes too, and so neither one of us would impose our wishes expecting the other to just obey blindly. 

You do not understand just how much it hurts to be seen by the one you love as a subordinate. Its a worst kind of pain... that hurts right to the core.  Our souls are the same. What gives the man the right to automatically have his wishes fulfilled, while she must just obey like she has been born into bondage beneath men??  If women are born into bondage beneath men, then it's a sorry state for women.  And a hopeless one. As I said even if he treats her like gold, the fact that she is being treated as a subordinate and must obey means she is on bondage.  The feeling of being in bondage sucks. It's kills the woman's soul. 

But you are asking women to endure this hardship so you can feel good and have some kicks having her obey you. 

Is this life only for men?? And women are here as a punishment? Thats the only way to reconcile this thinking. It has been mentioned on here before that being born in a female body is karmic punishment. Is bondage to men part of this? Can you imagine just for a moment put yourself in mindset as a woman. Do you see the hopelessness?? How is this any better than Hinduism which says women are lower than males of the lowest caste even. Born into bondage to serve men. That is their punishment and they are even told its more difficult to be born as a male after being female than to get a male body from an animal one, just to add to the hopelessness these women feel. 

The ideology then spills out of the home into the world. Where women are told they have no place in running of things, everything becomes established based on male perspective only, and for male privilege. This is also why women are devalued to the point that female fetuses are aborted.  Women become discriminated against, seen as lesser humans. Women learn to hate themselves for being born female. Is this right??? Is this what Waheguru wants?? Half of creation hating themselves because the other half wants to put them into subjugation and be obeyed??

It's a systemic problem which starts right from the home, when little boys are taught than men get what they want, and women must obey.  

btw feminine wiles, used to get what women want, would not even be required if women were seen as equals and not forced into subjugation. Read the explanation of Charitropakhyan on here... in the first few posts it says this:

"In her true form, she adopts that active force which is fully capable of eradicating all crimes and evils from this world. On one hand, there is a social structure that gladly hands her the sword for the destruction of tyrants, and also gives her equal opportunities to excel and touch the peaks of success in all walks of life. On the other hand however, there is that primitive male-dominated social order which treats her like an object of sexual desire and keeps her confined to the parameters of the house. Such social structure pushes her towards destructive activities. Her extremely sharp intellect and limitless strength is capable of breaching walls of the house; even in that confinement, she has the capacity to destroy the biggest of kings, wealthy and powerful people without using even a single weapon. Therefore, it is up to the male society to decide whether it wants to choose destruction or progression. The path of equality of men and women leads to progression, while inequality will most certainly bring about destruction and chaos. If male society chooses the road of progression and gives her equal opportunities in constructive tasks, evils, oppressions, and immorality will be destroyed. But, if she is sidelined and forced to live under shadow of males, she will keep reminding male society of her limitless force even while treading on the path forced upon her. Male writes at length about her characters, yet he is the one responsible for her destructive form."

Above was written by Xylitol...who I assume is a male. 

There you have it.  Subordinate women into lesser position and expect obedience, and you are the cause of your own woes because nobody including women were born with the ability to be subjugated. All prisoners long for escape. All slaves long for freedom. All oppressed long to end their oppression and that becomes their main goal. 

Shouldn't marriage instead be about mutual love and respect?? 

---------

I am sorry but I just can not suffer under subjugation to someone who is supposed to be my partner.  I'd rather actually die than him see me as his subordinate. If this ideology was forced on me, I'd likely have been dead ages ago. And many girls in this situation kill themselves rather than live as lesser humans seen as servants for men.\

Men might want obedience and respect - Women want more than ANYTHING for their life partner to see them as an equal and not something lesser or subordinate.  That IS the definition of love... giving up the wish to be superior to her.  If as a man you love your wife, truly loved your wife, you would not expect obedience. Though respect should be expected both ways. 

 

[GurpreetKaur]

Oh Vaheguroo!!!...This is so unhealthy for you. :(

[SAadmin]

Both parties influenced by society patriarchy and feminist model have to rise above from these model for their own sake, own soul- self realization or to be gurmukh to truly follow vows of anand karaj. Self realization is totally different way of being not confined to gender based society models...as soon as you identify with these models, you will start start boxing  yourself into groupism or belief system then viola congratulations you managed yourself to start samasa - wheel of suffering machine once again and fall in right clutches of maya - deep illusion. Good luck unboxing/un digging the grave you made yourself.

The problem is we carry so much unnecessary baggage with us its not necessary... it will have adverse affect on our spirituality as its hinders the truth. Unfortunate thing is people who are affected by these society models will never let their guard down and see truth as it is without lenses of both feminism and patriarchy model.

Gurmat is middle way - truth as it is -  not this or that.

[paapiman]

5 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

It is true that while a typical feminist might do anything for her husband, she might even maintain the house and prepare healthy meals for him, what she won't do is the thing he absolutely needs because she has been taught to see it as oppression.

What her husband absolutely needs to his core from his wife, is for his wife to show him respect and obedience.

Instead of seeing it as "a way God made him" or "male nature or wiring" or even "just his biological limitations", a feminist has been brainwashed to think of this as oppression. She will gladly accept love and gifts from her husband but she won't reciprocate in a manner in which he feels reciprocated - respect and obedience, which is the equivalent of love, commitment, support etc for women.

While feminists will gladly talk about empowering women, they will hardly talk about empowering their husband, their fatheir, their brothers, their sons, and other men in their societies.

 

As opposed to an egalitarian woman (below), who understands quote on quote "Charitropakhyan" better than many Sikh women.

"Feminine wiles, while they can certainly be used to negative and devious ends, are nothing more than a tool.  In essence, they are Girl Game.  Just like Game, they are going to be used to the end goal of the user, for either good or bad, but in and of themselves, they are not a bad thing.  Feminine wiles are a woman’s power.  They are what she covertly uses to influence her man, or any man, to get what she wants.  It is what any particular woman might want that a man has to be careful of.  If her end game is to increase her ability to love, the her manipulation or influence of her man is a very good thing.  If her end game is a large house with granite counter tops, then one wants to be very wary of any feminine wiles she might employ.

I use feminine wiles often to produce the effect I desire (my husband knows darn well what I’m doing, too.  This is a good thing.)  I manipulate his senses with baked cookies. I entice him to more sleep with pretty nightgowns (haha!)  If he really needs the sleep, I employ his beautiful daughters to give me ideas on how to help Daddy get more sleep so he’s not too tired during the day (right in front of him, of course).  I don’t do this harshly or in any way nagging.  It’s done as a matter of fact and he appreciates what I am trying to do for him.  I know darn well that a “Come to bed” will fall on deaf ears, but a “Why is Daddy so tired?” will soften him to go to bed a bit earlier that evening.  It’s also a very gentle way for me to tell him something he really does not want to hear (Maritus hates to sleep as it’s a waste of precious time that he could use to read or do something else he loves)."

https://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/feminine-wiles/

Paaji, have you read all the charitars from Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

5 hours ago, N30 S!NGH said:

Gurmat is middle way - truth as it is -  not this or that.

N30

Theoretically, it is easy to say one way or the other or propose a theoretical middle way. However blinded by theory it is very easy anyone to fall flat on their face when they hit reality.

And everyone will probably agree to this above statement I quoted, and will go on and start disagreeing what that middle way is.

We have these traditional models of human interaction, given to us by our ancestors that have been tweaked over thousands of years to maximize well-being of society and the people within, given a certain environment.

The current culture is such that any traditional family idea put forth is going to be seen as a proposition for establishing Nazi Germany or something horrible like that.

However I don't think that these models should be thrown out haphazardly. Any gift by our ancestors must be cherished. It must be studied and learned from without making presumptions about what they were talking about.

But nowadays we are all too keen on throwing out traditions. Starting with the presumption that the traditions are either irrelevant or some how damaging.

Ok that's fine. Let's put aside traditional models and start from scratch.

Let's start with this question as it is the topic of this thread.

 

Why do people cheat?

Well one of the reasons that I think we can all agree on is that people cheat because they have certain needs that were not met in the relationship.

Not expectations but needs.

 

Why do people have needs?

People have needs because they are limited in their capacity. The sexes are wired a certain way, to do things differently, and they needs that correspond to how they view and interact with the world.

Men and women have certain needs. When they are in a relationship, they are looking for a partner that will fulfill some of these needs.

I am not talking about what they think they need but rather what they actually need. Something that is fundamental to their nature.

I am talking about needs that arise from their core, without which they would suffocate in a relationship and feel disconnected from their partner.

That's leads us to the 2 most important questions -

What do men and women need from a relationship?

In what way can men and women fulfill each others needs in a relationship?

 

If we put aside our preconceived notions and ideologies about what we think men and women need, then we can have an honest discussion about the topic.

Far too many men and women bring their own baggage into it and muddy up the issue with under the influence of dominant cultural narratives.

It is already difficult enough to study this topic, that any heavy baggage you bring into it will make it a far too difficult a goal and you will continue to operate in the paradigm you were previously, whether or not such a paradigm is any good for you.

[BhagatSingh]

36 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, have you read all the charitars from Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I have only read some of them.

[BhagatSingh]

7 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

Shouldn't marriage instead be about mutual love and respect?? 

Yes.

It's impossible for me to reply to the rest of your post because it's full of presumptions and really long. So let's start here, because we both agree that relationships should be based on mutual love and respect.

However the way in which men and women receive love and respect from their partner is quite different between the sexes.

Below is a successful and admirable egalitarian woman speaking about this topic. This is a workshop she did for women, to help them with their relationships.

Shaunti Feldhahn received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author and popular speaker.  Today, she applies her analytical skills to investigating eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace.

 

 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Bhagat Singh Ji,

While YOU might think you need to be obeyed.  I would say the vast majority of women NEED to be seen on equal level to their spouse. It's true that women tend to compromise faster to keep the peace and so over time, many many women have just obeyed to keep that peace. But do you really think that ANY human wants to be put into a subordinate role to someone else and have to obey them?? Come on.. It really sucks no matter how you look at it!!! EVERYONE wants their say and to have their say matter and in a marriage that say should be equal. 

Respect yes. Both ways!  I highly respect my husband - and he highly respects me!!! 
But anyone who thinks they need someone to obey them as some innate buit-in need, is operating through ego. 
Love definitely both ways! 

Marriage is not a company requiring a hierarchy to operate.  In fact, on the topic of sex etc. I don't think I could ever be intimate with a spouse who was seen as my superior.  It would just be 'yucky' like sleep with the boss kind of yucky.  There would be an imbalance of power and any intimate relationship where one person has the power over the other (power of authority) - in any other case in society we consider it to be wrong because one person in that dynamic is being taken advantage of and is in a vulnerable position simply because of the authority the other has over them. This is seen as true even (and perhaps especially) when the subordinate is using it as a means to get what they want from the boss. (I'm speaking neither of male or female in either position because we all know its happened both ways in society). 

But....this is not the dynamic to build a loving marriage on!!! Building a marriage on a power / subordinate dynamic AUTOMATICALLY creates the scenario where sex will ultimately be misused. Misused by the one in power over the "subordinate" and misused by the subordinate to get what they want.  (things like the wife agreeing to sex acts she knows her husband wants but she does not... but she agrees to them as a barganing chip in order to get something etc.  Suffer for a little while doing something she might find humiliating to make him help with housework etc. or take the kids somewhere etc.  And I have seen this WAY more than I care to imagine!!!! So don't pretend it doesn't exist.) This is what this inequal dynamic does! 

The only answer to keep sex sacred between two loving spouses is to not have a power dynamic at all.  

While you personally might think you need someone to obey you (and why not just get a dog???) MANY couples are successfully married in relationships where the husband also respects and 'obeys' his wife.  They mutually try to appeal to each others wishes etc. when possible. But neither forces their will on the other.  Sometimes they must compromise. But they are perfectly happy and in tune with each other.  Trust me it is possible so you can't speak for all males.  I think this need for someone to obey is a personal ego struggle... and I think a dog (really it wasn't a joke) a dog would suffice that need to have something obey your commands. 

 

 

[dalsingh101]

Quote

But do you really think that ANY human wants to be put into a subordinate role to someone else and have to obey them?? Come on.. It really sucks no matter how you look at it!!! EVERYONE wants their say and to have their say matter and in a marriage that say should be equal. 

Now you're beginning to look like you've got a sieve brain.

A few months ago you agreed that some people (male AND female) are very happy with being dominated or taking a permissive role in relationships (with some weirdos even paying to be dominated), now, yet again, you backtrack with this bull5hit. 

Make your mind up girl.  

 

I personally couldn't be taking any subordinate role myself, and I understand and know many women who couldn't either - but I've met plenty of blokes and women who would (and do!) of their own volition. 

 

I don't think your position has much substance to it. 

 

What you need to be saying is that you personally would not take any submissive role but that you know many others would, for whatever reason. Previously you explained it as a matter of personal preference, but now you start with this white feminist crap again. 

 

Have some consistency.