Social media and anti-Dasam Granth movement.

[Guest guest]

On 18 July 2016 at 10:40 AM, amardeep said:

 

 

 

What Samprdayic literature have you read?

have scanned the literature and knowledge of DamDami Taksal, Nihungs and Nimale. 

could not find out much about Udasin (however not sure they count as Sikh sampraday because they originate from Baba Sri Chand and not Baba Nanak, however they could have some knowledge).  And AKJ and Nanaksaris are not a sampradayas.  

[Guest guest]

Oh and Kukkai/ Naamdhari (though I don't believe in their lineage claims)

There is a sampradaya claiming to be from Bhai Kaneya, again I don't buy it, and they dont have any particular texts as far as I am aware

 

[Guest guest]

none of these 'sampradayas' (as you paapiman calls them) displayed any inherited knowledge of Ragas either- not even basic melodies

[amardeep]

We are talking about several hundreds of books here - can you give some titles of the books you've read since you can make those claims regarding lack of knowledge?

[Guest guest]

oh so you think i am lying?   :-)

i cannot name titles since it was so long ago (like a decade).  can you name authors from that far back?  maybe if they heavily affected or influenced you, but i cannot say that was the case with me.   also, i don't know what you mean by 'hundreds of books', most of the big names and texts are a handful in each group (if there even are such texts).  maybe you feel the need to pour over every second book. but alot of books summarise other books, so it is easier to trace back to the main thinkers and then look for the texts that arent mentioned/influenced by them. also with e.g. Nirmale there are lot books with vedantic commentary, which isnt relevant to my queries/points mentioned above.  what i can recall is that the last i remember seeking out was pundit kartar singh dhakan's book on vyakaran.  i tried to find it online maybe eight years back.  it was quite dense so i scanned through it.

im not interested in trying to look erudite.  rather than reading 100 books one after the other,  i raise a query then i scan 100 books looking solely for the answer to my query.  alot more efficient no?  im not interested in other authors's commentaries or speculations.

p.s. are you trying to push paapimans logic that i cannot prove there isnt such knowledge there?  if you think the knowledge is there why don't you point out where?

the answers to basic questions mentioned above- they dont seemt to exist in the mainstream in any of these schools.  from what i can see, they only present speculation, not continously and directly inherited (sampradayic) knowledge.  if you think i am wrong, please point outsome proof to the contrary because i would like the answer to these questions very much indeed and i would be very happy if there was a true sampradaya from Guru Gobind SIngh's time (or prior).

[Xylitol]

Guest Guest, please make an account. 

[amardeep]

22 hours ago, Guest guest said:

oh so you think i am lying?   :-)

i cannot name titles since it was so long ago (like a decade).  can you name authors from that far back?  maybe if they heavily affected or influenced you, but i cannot say that was the case with me.   also, i don't know what you mean by 'hundreds of books', most of the big names and texts are a handful in each group (if there even are such texts).  maybe you feel the need to pour over every second book. but alot of books summarise other books, so it is easier to trace back to the main thinkers and then look for the texts that arent mentioned/influenced by them. also with e.g. Nirmale there are lot books with vedantic commentary, which isnt relevant to my queries/points mentioned above.  what i can recall is that the last i remember seeking out was pundit kartar singh dhakan's book on vyakaran.  i tried to find it online maybe eight years back.  it was quite dense so i scanned through it.

im not interested in trying to look erudite.  rather than reading 100 books one after the other,  i raise a query then i scan 100 books looking solely for the answer to my query.  alot more efficient no?  im not interested in other authors's commentaries or speculations.

p.s. are you trying to push paapimans logic that i cannot prove there isnt such knowledge there?  if you think the knowledge is there why don't you point out where?

the answers to basic questions mentioned above- they dont seemt to exist in the mainstream in any of these schools.  from what i can see, they only present speculation, not continously and directly inherited (sampradayic) knowledge.  if you think i am wrong, please point outsome proof to the contrary because i would like the answer to these questions very much indeed and i would be very happy if there was a true sampradaya from Guru Gobind SIngh's time (or prior).

I am not saying that you are liying. I am just asking you to be more specific instead of making broad claims encompassing 200+ years of Sikh scholarship from a wide range of different groups. Since we are talking about several hundreds of books having come from these different samprdayas and groups I would argue that it is difficult to make such claims unless you've actually read a majority of their books. Which you say you haven't.

So instead of you saying that they havent covered these topics it would probably be more fruitful for you to say you haven't come across any of such writings from their hands..

I haven't actively looked into those subjects myself so can't say whether they have covered them or not.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Amardeep, say a question comes to your mind and you go to the library to find the answer.  the library probably has over 10,000 books.  now if it is a physics question- are you going to read every book in every section?  or are you going to go to the physics department?  and if there is no physics department, does that mean you will look for the answer to your question in the cooking department?

and when you reach the physics department, are you going to take each book down and read it one after the other, or are you going to scan the bookshelf for the relevant books.  then you could skim through any relevant books- the contents page, index, etc, to look directly for the answer for your question.

So in the question of Vyakaran, wont you look in each group (i wont say sampradaya)  directly for that?  and don't you think that would be an important topic?  Even pre-1900, Ernest Trump couldnt find anyone to help him understand it.

You idea that 'can you prove that there isnt' is a logical fallacy.   

[Guest guest]

23 hours ago, Xylitol said:

Guest Guest, please make an account. 

hi Xylitol im sorry i will post much less, but thanks for posting my responses

[amardeep]

19 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

Amardeep, say a question comes to your mind and you go to the library to find the answer.  the library probably has over 10,000 books.  now if it is a physics question- are you going to read every book in every section?  or are you going to go to the physics department?  and if there is no physics department, does that mean you will look for the answer to your question in the cooking department?

and when you reach the physics department, are you going to take each book down and read it one after the other, or are you going to scan the bookshelf for the relevant books.  then you could skim through any relevant books- the contents page, index, etc, to look directly for the answer for your question.

So in the question of Vyakaran, wont you look in each group (i wont say sampradaya)  directly for that?  and don't you think that would be an important topic?  Even pre-1900, Ernest Trump couldnt find anyone to help him understand it.

You idea that 'can you prove that there isnt' is a logical fallacy.   

Your methodology is fair if it presupposes that the library you went to has a substantial collection of books from the nirmale. If not, - your conclusion will never go further than the few books they have stored.

Often I think I have gotten a conclusive overview of Sikh books written pre-1849 but then I end up coming across dozens more (either in book form or by referenc) by visiting a certain place I havent been before.All I am saying is keep an open mind instead of making broad claims covering 200+ years of scholarship.

[Xylitol]

5 hours ago, Guest guest said:

hi Xylitol im sorry i will post much less, but thanks for posting my responses

post more, but just use a name please. 

[amardeep]

Some notes i've done earlier:

Bhai Ram Singh was a contemporary of Mahraja Ranjit Singh and had a flourishing school to which students from distant parts of Northern India flocked and took lessons in the higher departments of learning such as the philosophy of Gurbani, prosody and poetry writing, grammar, literature and literary criticism, history, politics etc. Bhai Kharak Singh Dhupia taught the same subjects at his school in Amritsar as did Bawa Amir Das Udasi and Budh Singh who furthermore translated a Persian book from Akbar’s times on politics.

Bhai Juna Singh was a granthi at Amritsar during the Khalsa Raj. He was known in his times as a great master who taught arithmetic, mathematics, grammar, poetry and the content of the Puranas from his home. Bhai Buddha, another contemporary, was one of the most successfull translators of Sanskrit works into Gurmukhi. Baba Ganga Ram also translated and adopted Sanskrit grammar into Gurmukhi.

Bhai Juna Singh was a granthi at Amritsar during the Khalsa Raj. He was known in his times as a great master who taught arithmetic, mathematics, grammar, poetry and the content of the Puranas from his home. Bhai Buddha, another contemporary, was one of the most successfull translators of Sanskrit works into Gurmukhi. Baba Ganga Ram also translated and adopted Sanskrit grammar into Gurmukhi.

 

All of the above scholars were patroned by the Khalsa Raj. They were all put out of business and harassed by the British government when they took over Punjab as they resumed and cancelled the government funding of these higher institutions of Sikh and secular learning.

[amardeep]

Also this:

Leitner in the 1880s wrote a book on Sikh education, and wrote the following:

'If a disciple wished to advance from studentship to fellowship, and become a Bhai ... he had to study the two Granths [Adi Guru and Dasam Granth], the Gurmukhi Grammar, Pingal (Prosody in Gurmukhi), Itihas (a Sikh application of the term to history), and arithmetic, and the elements of Sanscrit. The above were the compulsory subjects, but, if he wished to reach a higher grade, he would study the Niaya system of logic, the Vedanta and the Pratigant, which are all to be found in a translated or adopted form in Gurmukhi.

Highest of all, however, ranked the "Gyani", the "I'rfan", who could explain the mysteries of philosophy and religion in popular language, and would communicate them, as a preacher, to the people, thus showing that the essence of Sikhism is the popularization of knowledge'.

[chatanga1]

Good info Amardeep. Can you remember the title of Leitner's book?

[amardeep]

Here you go :) Enjoy, amazing info on pre-colonial education system in punjab

http://www.panjabdigilib.org/webuser/searches/displayPage.jsp?ID=6767&page=1&CategoryID=1&Searched=education

[chatanga1]

NIce one. Have added it to my reading material.

[Guest guest]

9 hours ago, amardeep said:

Also this:

Leitner in the 1880s wrote a book on Sikh education, and wrote the following:

'If a disciple wished to advance from studentship to fellowship, and become a Bhai ... he had to study the two Granths [Adi Guru and Dasam Granth], the Gurmukhi Grammar, Pingal (Prosody in Gurmukhi), Itihas (a Sikh application of the term to history), and arithmetic, and the elements of Sanscrit. The above were the compulsory subjects, but, if he wished to reach a higher grade, he would study the Niaya system of logic, the Vedanta and the Pratigant, which are all to be found in a translated or adopted form in Gurmukhi.

Highest of all, however, ranked the "Gyani", the "I'rfan", who could explain the mysteries of philosophy and religion in popular language, and would communicate them, as a preacher, to the people, thus showing that the essence of Sikhism is the popularization of knowledge'.

I take your point, but where are the books on ^Gurbani Grammar?  I hope they are out there.

[amardeep]

1 hour ago, Guest guest said:

I take your point, but where are the books on ^Gurbani Grammar?  I hope they are out there.

 

They most likely are.

[Guest guest]

one more thing about sikh 'sampradayas'- how did trimudra become 5ks?  they do not explicitly explain.

[amardeep]

On 24/7/2016 at 11:12 AM, Guest guest said:

one more thing about sikh 'sampradayas'- how did trimudra become 5ks?  they do not explicitly explain.

im not sure. I've heard different explanations, one being that the 5 K's were always there but refered to as 3 mudras due to some of the items belonging together.

The Kesh and Kanga is the first mudra. They go hand in hand just as the kirpan and gatra today go hand in hand (but gatra is not included in the list of 5 K's).

The keshara is the second mudra

The Kirpan and Kara is the third mudra. Both are weapons and therefore considered one.

 

Later on Sikh poets started playing with the names of these five items and started giving them the name panj kakaar - therefore it went from 3 mudras to 5 K's...

[kdsingh80]

38 minutes ago, amardeep said:

im not sure. I've heard different explanations, one being that the 5 K's were always there but refered to as 3 mudras due to some of the items belonging together.

The Kesh and Kanga is the first mudra. They go hand in hand just as the kirpan and gatra today go hand in hand (but gatra is not included in the list of 5 K's).

The keshara is the second mudra

The Kirpan and Kara is the third mudra. Both are weapons and therefore considered one.

 

Later on Sikh poets started playing with the names of these five items and started giving them the name panj kakaar - therefore it went from 3 mudras to 5 K's...

I am reading Pracheen panth prakash these days and nowhere it is written that 5ks or 3 mudra were part of sikhism before khalsa

Quote

They told the Guru that he had selected all the low-caste people,
Who were completely defenceless and unarmed.
He should throw this challenge before the martial royal chiefs,
As they were the right persons who could serve his purpose. (27)
Dohra : Then Sri Guru Gobind Singh felt anguished and thought,
That his followers did not wish to achieve anything in life.
He had wished to confer power and sovereignty on them,
But they were repeatedly refusing to accept this honour. (28)
Chaupai : Sri Guru Gobind Singh, being an expert omniscient psychoanalyst,
Had diagnosed the root cause of his Sikh’s psychic malady.
Since these Sikhs had been peaceful followers of a Charan Pahul4 tradition,
There was no spark of self-assertion and retaliation in their psyche. (29)
Dohra : They had been used to wearing a black woolen silken cap as head cover,
As they had been indoctrinated to call themselves as servants or slaves,
They being grounded in excessive compassion and humility,
It would be futile to ask them to pick up swords. (30)
Chaupai : He should first bring about a transformation in their character,
And make their appearance formidable that evokes fear and awe.
He should give his organisation a charismatic nomenclature,
And administer a heavy dose of heady elixir to them. (31)
So Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh arrived at a firm resolution,
And made efforts to implement it after deep contemplation.
They must adopt the dress code of a martial warrior race,
And grow hair and wear turbans on their heads. (32)
The warrior Kshtriyas had been suffixing the epithet “Singhs”
The same suffix “Singh” would suit his followers’ names as well.
He resolved to administer them the “Khandey-ki-Pahul”5 ,
In order to make the Khalsa formidable and resolute. (33)
In this way, they would learn the art of wielding power,
And develop a feeling of having become rulers and sovereigns.
From people weak as straw and reeds, he would turn them into men of steel,
After partaking of sword-initiated elixir, they would not be scared to pick up swords. (34)
Dohra : The Khalsa must be as autonomous and self-respecting,
As embodiment of all the Divine attributes in plenty.
Never submitting to the sovereignty of anyone else,
Except the sovereignty and autonomy of God alone. (35)

page 81 pracheeen panth praksh , Rattan singh bhangoo

From this it looks that Khlasa was isea of Guru Gobind singh with unique identiy.

[amardeep]

Trai mudra are mentioned in Sarbloh Granth and Suraj Prakash Granth

[kdsingh80]

29 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Trai mudra are mentioned in Sarbloh Granth and Suraj Prakash Granth

I think that evidence that 5ks or 3 mudra were not widespread among sikhs. isn't there something mughal account which mention that khatri's started fighting themselves because Guru gobind singh told them to " Bhaddan tyago" and for many khatri's this was not accepted . that means Bhaddan was quite common among sikhs

[Guest guest]

by aligning kara with kirpan, it is implied that kara is a weapon/releated item.  but i do not see the relation between the two items, like for example kesh and comb.  because the iron bangles worn by hindu women are also called kara's.

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

I think that evidence that 5ks or 3 mudra were not widespread among sikhs. isn't there something mughal account which mention that khatri's started fighting themselves because Guru gobind singh told them to " Bhaddan tyago" and for many khatri's this was not accepted . that means Bhaddan was quite common among sikhs

Bro, what does "Bhaddan tyago" mean?

 

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