40 Greatest Sikhs Who Believed ‘Dasam Granth’ the Work of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji

[paapiman]

On 2/3/2016 at 5:42 PM, Singh123456777 said:

Kahan Singh is also against raag mala

It should not be surprising, if Kahan Singh Nabha jee did not believe in Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee. A person, who can doubt one part of Gurbani, can have doubts on other parts too.

Having said that, he was a great scholar. No one can deny that.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

On 2/7/2016 at 5:56 AM, paapiman said:

It should not be surprising, if Kahan Singh Nabha jee did not believe in Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee. A person, who can doubt one part of Gurbani, can have doubts on other parts too.

Having said that, he was a great scholar. No one can deny that.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

He is such a great scholar that anything he says has to be taken seriously, more than any Internet scholar. Of course he is human and not immune to making mistakes or having misapprehensions, but even a cursory study of the works he produced show that he had immersed himself into Sikh literature to an usually deep level. 

 

Also I noticed no one found his anti Charitripakyaan statement in the work the previous poster cited. 

[Guest seeker]

Here you go:

http://www.panjabdigilib.org/webuser/searches/displayPageContent.jsp?ID=5221&page=1&CategoryID=1&Searched=W3GX

Page 13 of 488 it starts and Charitropakhyaan is criticised on many pages after that passage. 

[Guest seeker]

Page 25 too. And so on. Put in some effort and you will find plenty of references.

[dalsingh101]

That's better. Nice to give people quick access to stuff you're referring to. 

[Guest seeker]

now skim through the book and find bhai nabhas stance on charitars. he seems to believe in other dasam banis like bachittar natak and the avtars though as he quotes them as guru vaak.

[dalsingh101]

Guest seeker:

 

A few other things to consider. Kahn Singh was influenced (like all of the Singh Sabhans), with the prevailing Victorian Protestant ideal of the rulers of the time. He could have been perceiving the chariters in light of this. 

[Guest seeker]

Are you sure you are reading it in a unbiased way? seems you're already trying to find why he was anti rather than looking at his arguments. Anyways your call

[dalsingh101]

Of course I want to understand why he is anti. That's the key to understanding his writings. 

 

The point that no one in the panth seems to have had any issue with CP in the way people have now prior to the Singh Sabha needs to be understood. 

And if you are Sikhkhoj, try restraining yourself from rabid outbursts like the last time you were here. 

I hope you're not knocking back pegs of whisky when you post. 

[Guest seeker]

maybe dasam was not as important as now either? sarbloh granth printed intro says dg wasnt even available in panjab prior to 1803 or so if im not mistaken, so try to find reasons why unlike the ragmala people had no big issues with dg.

no standardised birs, not as much importance as now in rituals (some granths which mention nitnem and pahul without dg seem to point that dg was not used by all sikhs in those ceremonies) and other reasons may be to 'blame' for the fact that ppl werent anti dg back then. even the likes of chibber who say guru wrote bani say he called it his 'play' and thus not equal to guru granth sahibs bani, maybe its only later that people started putting it on par with guru granth and so on

[Ragmaala]

Japo satnam wahe guru...death is coming close eac second

[JustAnotherSingh]

@amardeep I think you put my own views of DG phenomenally into words. Admittedly, I used to be a Dasam Granth doubter, mainly because it just wasn't consistent with the language and content one finds in Guru Granth Sahib. What started getting me thinking in the other direction was mostly just reading Rehitname literature and realizing Sikh history is multifaceted outside of GGS. If Sikh history was shaped by forces outside GGS...what means that the Gurus had no knowledge outside of what they wrote in GGS? They had a thorough understanding of other faiths and cultures and the vast body of literature that populated those. And why wouldn't they use that to their benefit?

I think a lot of Dasam Granth has to be taken in that light. For example, the obsession with Chandi, the goddess, among early Sikhs always sort of was a head-stratcher. Would Guru Ji have approved of this? But I always find it useful to draw links to the contemporary. Let's look at the kharku movement in the 80s. Obviously an understanding of the pathetic political situation in India was quite enough to get people riled up, but what is it that really pushed that excitement to the brink? Kharku leaders were skills at drawing parallels to their current situation to that faced by early Sikhs under the Mughals and Afghans. Indira Gandhi was the modern Ahmed Shah Abdali, and similarly, a modern army of the Khalsa was needed to face this ancient threat resurfaced. People looked to shaheeds of old as their inspiration, a struggle which they could identify with.

Now let's look at the goddess veneration in DG texts. We have the reverence of Chandi, even the sword is called Bhagauti. Why? Well, even today, goddess worship is featured prominently in Punjabi Jatt culture. For many Punjabi Jatts, getting Prashaad from Naina Devi was as prestigious as getting that from Harimandir Sahib. So what does Guru Sahib do? He takes that goddess metaphor that people can connect to--and he brings out the warrior in order to awaken the warriors within the people. There's no compromise of the fundamental Sikh principles, but it's not core Sikhi spirituality; hence why it's not featured in the Granth we consider our Guru.

It's a shame that more DG discussions can't be more in depth and intellectual like they are here. They're unfortunately muddled by noise from all directions, and not helped by the RSS-types who try pointing to everything in DG to prove "Seeeeeeee Sikhs are the sword-arm of Hindooism, your Guru worshipped Chandi!!!!" Heck, I've even seen some crazy Muslim on Twitter citing Zafarnamah to argue that Guru Gobind Singh literally broke Hindu idols. And this type of noise is historic as well; folks like Kesar Singh Chibber tried to amp up the Chandi angle to their benefit, while you have many historically like Udasi Sewa Das who engaged in intellectual loop-holes to get around the Islamic cosmology mentioned in bani. 

[Ragmaala]

In Sikhi updesh chau varna ko sanja , there are teachings for everyone, whether in Guru Granth Sahib or Sri Dasam Ji.  I do not find the conflit between two, instead I find them all inclusive

Guru Arjan Dev  Ji gives updesh to a worshipper of Bhagauti in Sukhmani Sahib, as well as a Vaishnav. Also to those people who want to be Aparsa.

There is updesh for Siddha Purush & Yogis by Guru Nanak.

There is updesh to bhogis, kings and grihasthis in Charitropakhyan by Guru Ji.

There is updesh for worshippers of Nirgun, the devotees of the Shabad Surat Marg, And there is updesh for upasaks of Sargun.

You may find contradicting statement in Guru Granth Sahib but upon further contemplation you will find that they are meant for people belonging to different mental states.

For example, a Bhagat may say  raj na chahoo mukat na chaoo mann preet charan kamlare....  but at the same time a Grihasthi will say lakhmi tot na aavyi khaye kharach rahanda...

Similarly different banis, different updesh, Shiva, Shakti, Bhagauti, Chandi, Mahakal, Vishnu, Krishna, Guru Nanak, Allah applies to people in different contexts, different situations, different cicumstances.

For example, if you want to go to war you cannot read Sukhmani Sahib , its full of Shanti rass. You will need to read something like Chandi di vaar, Bachitar Natak, Chandi Charitar, Bhagauti Ustotar, Brahm kavach to invoke bir rasa and protection.

Raja or Kingdom is not prohibited in Gurbani, only that which breaks you from God. If you are king you may need to know about various tricks that can be used against you as described in CP.

If you are a family  man, you will need to ask for daal sedha mango ghiyo hamra khushi kare nit jiyo paniya shadan nika anak mago sat sika gaoo bhais mago laveri ik tajan turi change ghar ki geehan changi jan dhana leve mangi (  lentil, flour, ghee, grains, cow, buffalo, housewife), as were asked by Bhagat Dhanna.

There are no conflicts or contradictions in Gurbani or Dasam, conflicts are due to veil in front of our minds.

Satnam Waheguru

Dhan Guru Nanak!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[amardeep]

That was a beautiful post Ragmala ji! THanks for that.

[amardeep]

Good post @JustAnotherSingh I agree.

[Guest seeker]

Quote

For example, if you want to go to war you cannot read Sukhmani Sahib , its full of Shanti rass. You will need to read something like Chandi di vaar, Bachitar Natak, Chandi Charitar, Bhagauti Ustotar, Brahm kavach to invoke bir rasa and protection.

How long will you and your pro Dasam Granthi mates lie? Guru Hargobind made Dhadhis recite Guru Granth Sahib vaars for Bir Ras as written by Kavi Sohan. Many battles were fought prior to Guru Gobind Singh, all with Guru Granth Sahibs bani. All Bhatts from Guru Granth Saib fought valiantly and many became shaheed too.

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Guest seeker said:

How long will you and your pro Dasam Granthi mates lie? Guru Hargobind made Dhadhis recite Guru Granth Sahib vaars for Bir Ras as written by Kavi Sohan. Many battles were fought prior to Guru Gobind Singh, all with Guru Granth Sahibs bani. All Bhatts from Guru Granth Saib fought valiantly and many became shaheed too.

Ragmaala paaji has not lied. It is fact that Gurbanis from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee have Bir ras in them. This does not mean that SSGGSJM does not have Bir ras in them. Sikhs fighting valiantly and winning battles, prior to Tenth Master, does not mean that Sikhs did not need Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee. Additionally, the Panth faced much more difficult conditions after Tenth Master than during the times of earlier Satgurus.

Answer this question - Fourth Master's Gurbani is full of Vairaag. Even, Ninth Master's Gurbani is full of Vairaag. What was the need for Ninth Master to recite Gurbani full of Vairaag, if Vairaag was already present in Sri Aad Granth Sahib jee?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

3 hours ago, Guest seeker said:

Guru Hargobind made Dhadhis recite Guru Granth Sahib vaars for Bir Ras as written by Kavi Sohan. Many battles were fought prior to Guru Gobind Singh, all with Guru Granth Sahibs bani.

It would be a little difficult to read Dasam bania in 6th Guru's time wouldn't it?

Which banis would you say were full of bir rass in Guru Granth Sahib?

 

[Guest seeker]

Chatanga, go read some history and you'll find out what was read for bir ras prior to Guru Gobind singh.  I quoted Kavi Sohan, find it in his book. Ask any Taksali kathavachak he would know Guru hargobind set dhunis to ggs vaars to be sung by dhadhis for yudh preparation.

Twareekh guru khalsa also mentions this fact. its online unlike gurbilas patshahi 6 so you can find it.

[Guest guest]

On 14/02/2016 at 6:34 PM, paapiman said:

Ragmaala paaji has not lied. It is fact that Gurbanis from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee have Bir ras in them. This does not mean that SSGGSJM does not have Bir ras in them. Sikhs fighting valiantly and winning battles, prior to Tenth Master, does not mean that Sikhs did not need Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee. Additionally, the Panth faced much more difficult conditions after Tenth Master than during the times of earlier Satgurus.

Answer this question - Fourth Master's Gurbani is full of Vairaag. Even, Ninth Master's Gurbani is full of Vairaag. What was the need for Ninth Master to recite Gurbani full of Vairaag, if Vairaag was already present in Sri Aad Granth Sahib jee?

Bhul chuk maaf

What about the parts in Dasam Granth that describe Krishna ji's play with the gopis?  You think that is for what you call 'bir rass'?

You mention Guru Tegh Bahader's Gurbani is full of Vairaag, but didn't he lead battles in his youth? 

Infact I would say that Vairaag is necessity for a soldier of any kind, in order to act rationally on the battlefield.

 

[Guest guest]

bir rass isnt necessarily anything to do with battle.  this is a modern invention.

bir (virya) means courage.  even the yogis (as described by Patanjali) revere Virya (courage) as a virtue, and they take Ahimsa (no-violence) vows.

the Shakta Hindus do not seem to be particularly militaristic either.

[Guest guest]

yes and wasnt Guru Harigobind (correct spelling!) who instutuded Dhadhi Varan?

 

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, Guest guest said:

What about the parts in Dasam Granth that describe Krishna ji's play with the gopis?  You think that is for what you call 'bir rass'?

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee has other types of ras in it too, but that does not mean that it does not have bir ras in it. It is fact that SDGSJ has more bir ras that SSGGSJM.

 

2 hours ago, Guest guest said:

You mention Guru Tegh Bahader's Gurbani is full of Vairaag, but didn't he lead battles in his youth? 

So, what does that prove? The point is, even if bir ras was present prior to SDGSJ, one cannot use that argument to prove that Sikhs did not need more bir ras. It is similar to vairaag ras. Fourth Master's Gurbani is full of vairaag, but Ninth master uttered more Gurbani of Vairaag. Maharaaj knows what we need.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest seeker]

point is sggs is complete for spiritual and worldly knowledge. it doesnt contain info on ceremonies etc thats where we need history but sggs is complete

so if 9th guru uttered more vairag he didnt create a new granth, it was added to ggs. dasam pita didn't write any bani, maybe he did just for the sake of enjoyment (like chibber says) but not of any religious importance to sikhs, or any way comparable to guru granth sahibs bani

[Guest seeker]

On 1/30/2016 at 11:38 PM, amardeep said:

I asked Niddar Singh Nihang about why there is such a vast outlook of different approaches in the Sri Dasam Granth. He said that it was a political move of Guru Gobind Singh as a way of uniting the Indian "hindus" under the banner of Dharma! Telling them to unite and fight the opressors! Whether the Sri Guru uses the Puran avatar of the Vaishnavas, Shaktas or Shaivites - you'll notice that the teaching given to the reader in all of the banis is to rise and fight!!!

On a larger scale - according to Niddar Singh - the whole of the Dasam Granth is a politically unifiying scripture that seeks to establish bridges between thee major panths of India - a unity which was needed in order destroy the Mughals..

Wow. What a brilliant, academic and thorough argument.