why nanaksar ragiis are celibate

[CdnSikhGirl]

Here is paapiman posting only one or two lines from a full shabad again and losing the context. It's not saying to renounce everything but to realize that everything in this life is transitory.  

@akalpurkh the full shabad speaks of God being everywhere and that our true form is with God. Everything here is temporary. It's not saying don't get married or have a family. It's saying don't look at that as being your full purpose for existence. Like it's ok to stop and smell flowers or take in the beauty of this world but don't forget that this world is temporary and you have an even more beautiful world waiting beyond this one so don't get so caught up in this one. Actually an ascetic can become just as caught up in the beauty of the forest and forget that the forest is only transitory too!

[JasperS]

Celibacy is not required to find God. But some groups may practice it because they feel like it creates less distraction so they can devote their lives to God.  Catholic priests and nuns are required to be celibate just as an example. But celibacy in the religion catholicism is not required actually quite the opposite.  Same for certain Buddhist monks etc.  

[paapiman]

34 minutes ago, JasperS said:

Celibacy is not required to find God. But some groups may practice it because they feel like it creates less distraction so they can devote their lives to God.    

You are right Jasper jee. Celibacy is an option in Sikhism, neither prohibited nor mandatory.

Marriage is also not required to attain the Almighty Waheguru.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Koi]

I think I'm probably the only one tempted to answer the original question (jokingly of course) with:

"It's just because the right girl hasn't come along yet..."

[akalpurkh]

On 3/28/2016 at 9:08 PM, paapiman said:

You are right Jasper jee. Celibacy is an option in Sikhism, neither prohibited nor mandatory.

Marriage is also not required to attain the Almighty Waheguru.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

For the sake of argument, if even we believe that Celibacy is optional in Sikhism then not even 1 Guru Sahib choose this in there life. This is again my repeated attempt to explain this point that all Guru Sahibs were gristi and THEY LIVE & LEAD THEIR LIFE BY SETTING EXAMPLES.

What if every Sikh choose to be celibate?

The people arguing on presence of Celibacy options in Sikhism should actually be thankful to Guru Sahibs that we are free from all this FOKAT customs because if their father had chosen to be celibate they wouldn't have born in the first place to argue about this, in this forum.

@CdnSikhGirl, I don't know what's wrong with @paapiman, even with numerous explanations & examples from Gurbani, it's hard for him to accept the fact. This is not at all a healthy way of discussions where person never acknowledges and agrees on something which is been clearly explained in the light of Gurmat.

Grisht dharam nu shresht dharam maneya hai,  buy it a person doesn't want to marry due to some personal reasons,  its his/her personal choice & doesn't constitutes a spiritual growth as promoted by some of our so called Sikh Sampradas like Nanaksar. 

CELIBACY IN SPIRITUAL WORLD IS NOTHING, BUT JUST RUNNING AWAY FROM RESPONSIBILITIES.
 

[Koi]

There are those who choose not to get married because they may have a specific mission in life ,  like sant mahapurkh.

Marriage is common, and definitely encouraged, but by no means mandatory. 

[akalpurkh]

1 hour ago, Koi said:

There are those who choose not to get married because they may have a specific mission in life ,  like sant mahapurkh.

Marriage is common, and definitely encouraged, but by no means mandatory. 

You are right in this regard. The concern is when samprada like Nanaksar promotes it in their stories as the only way to be purely close to God or to pure salvation.

No offence to any samprada here. Never mean to hurt anyone's devotion but if anyone want,  I can quote stories supporting this, from their books. 

[ramgharia]

papiman bhaiji i think you only supprts sampradas. are you a nanaksar celibate

 

[Koi]

2 hours ago, akalpurkh said:

You are right in this regard. The concern is when samprada like Nanaksar promotes it in their stories as the only way to be purely close to God or to pure salvation.

No offence to any samprada here. Never mean to hurt anyone's devotion but if anyone want,  I can quote stories supporting this, from their books. 

If you are a bihangam full time with the jatha, then yes, celibacy may be ideal. 

The idea to stay celibate during marriage is misunderstood. Gristi jeevan is fine. But too much bhog is bad for you spiritually, mentally, physically etc.

Sugar is sweet, but too much will give you diabetes. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

3 hours ago, Koi said:

If you are a bihangam full time with the jatha, then yes, celibacy may be ideal. 

The idea to stay celibate during marriage is misunderstood. Gristi jeevan is fine. But too much bhog is bad for you spiritually, mentally, physically etc.

Sugar is sweet, but too much will give you diabetes. 

 

Of course you don't want to become a sex crazed maniac but...

Celibacy means no sex at all. 

Most healthy way is to have intimate relations with your spouse but don't become addicted to it.  Do it for right reasons, intimacy and closeness with your spouse as an act of love. You are supposed to be two souls in one body. Merging with that other half of yourself is not wrong. Just don't take it for granted or start doing it purely for physical pleasure.

But Gurbani makes it clear that celibacy does not get you a fast pass ticket to God.

The only reason I can see these Ragi groups etc wanting people to be unmarried is so they can devote more time to practicing and traveling around without worrying about a family they have to get home to. So that's not a spiritual reason but a practical one. 

[Rock]

22 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

You are supposed to be two souls in one body. Merging with that other half of yourself is not wrong.

How can two souls ever merge with each other ?  It does not make sense to me. This seems like a romantic fairy tale concept. I can understand the merging of body, mind & emotions for enough support to carry on the duties of this world.

Guru Ji says when the husband dies & comes back as a Ghost, the wife runs away in fear ? Where is the love gone then ? What happened to the merging of souls.

( Imagine me saying this in a calm tone & a smile on my face. Don't get defensive lol )

[CdnSikhGirl]

3 hours ago, Rock said:

How can two souls ever merge with each other ?  It does not make sense to me. This seems like a romantic fairy tale concept. I can understand the merging of body, mind & emotions for enough support to carry on the duties of this world.

Guru Ji says when the husband dies & comes back as a Ghost, the wife runs away in fear ? Where is the love gone then ? What happened to the merging of souls.

( Imagine me saying this in a calm tone & a smile on my face. Don't get defensive lol )

Because physical is not reality. Even science knows this. Did you know that every atom is 99.9999% empty space? And what's left when you break atoms down is basically quarks and electrons (the smallest directly observable particles). There were experiments that show electrons can either behave as a particle or as a wave. And this is dependent upon a conscious observer.  In other words, reality, this physical 'stuff' we think is solid, really isn't. And it's only conscious observation which creates the Universe. So what IS real then? Consciousness itself. That's the base of the universe. In fact, matter could be consciousness itself just slowed enough in vibration to manifest as something solid.  But in reality non-physical / energy is the base state of reality.  Now how does this relate to sex? It's not a fairytale concept. When two humans engage in intimacy their energy actually merges on a nonphysical level.  

There in actuality several levels to existence. The physical level also has a corresponding energy envelope called the etheric. Everything on this physical level has not just a physical body but also an etheric body.  When the physical body dies, the consciousness can still function on the physical level in the etheric body. But since the etheric body is part of the physical, usually after a short time, the person moves on. I am sure you have heard of astral level, mental level, causal level etc.??  Anyway 'ghosts' are those still stuck in etheric level who refuse to let go of the physical. And not everyone is afraid. Many people actually hunt ghosts... 

However, remember we always inhabit both physical and etheric bodies. (in actuality we inhabit ALL the subtle bodies at once, they just exist on different levels) but anyway it's the nonphysical part of us which merges during intimacy. This is the real reason why sex before marriage is condemned. Not because of physical pleasure or just that it's taboo etc. And sex is also not just for procreation. It's literally two souls merging on that energy level. To treat sex as something only physical is abusing this great gift which should only be between two souls who have come together as husband and wife and only those two. You don't want to share your energy with everyone do you? 

In fact astral and etheric are mentioned in Gurbani as well... 

[dalsingh101]

Quote

There were experiments that show electrons can either behave as a particle or as a wave.

I thought that was the electro-magnetic spectrum not electrons. But I could be wrong. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

I thought that was the electro-magnetic spectrum not electrons. But I could be wrong. 

Nope, double slit experiment shows that when electrons fired through the slit were affected by conscious observation. When observed the electron went through either slit and created the line pattern on the back. (behaved as a particle) When not observed, it instead behaved as a wave, going through both slits at once, and creating an interference pattern on the back. This means the basic 'stuff' we think makes everything solid....really isn't.  It's proof that the universe is not the solid matter we think it is.  Reality is nonphysical and only becomes physical when we observe it into existence. 

Consciousness is who we are and not these physical bodies. This is why the Gurus placed emphasis on purity of the mind, not the body. This is why all humans are to be treated equally because we are equal. The physical world though seemingly real, really isn't!  It would be like me dreaming I am a King and you dreaming you are a popper. And then me placing limitations on you because you dreamt you were a popper and somehow that makes you lower than me. In reality, we are the same. It's the consciousness (the dreamer) which is real and not the dream.  And this is why sex between a couple is much much more than a physical pleasure or for just procreation in physical sense. Yes it brings new life into the world. Behind that we see the truth. It actually opens a gateway through which another soul can enter this existence.  And the husband and wife are merging not only on emotional and physical level but also their energy. Remember that every single atom in your body is made up of these same particles which pop into and out of existence based on conscious observation. So the only real part of your body is your consciousness. Your energy.  Your soul.  That is what is merging between a husband and wife.  

I think to say that intercourse is ONLY for procreation is doing it a HUGE injustice.  Gurbani compares our merging to Waheguru to the relations of a husband and wife an awful lot!  And it can't possibly be meaning on a physical level.  It's speaking of that merging on a deeper spiritual level.  

The only reason I can see ragis abstaining and not getting married is that they travel around and having a family would make that difficult. Also, they rely on donations and live a meagre life. They would not be able to support a family.  So I think that is more the reason than any spiritual benefit.

[Rock]

2 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Because physical is not reality

Sure

 

2 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

So what IS real then? Consciousness itself

Sure

2 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

But in reality non-physical / energy is the base state of reality

Ok

2 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

When two humans engage in intimacy their energy actually merges on a nonphysical level.

First of all I assume that by soul, consciousness & energy you mean the same thing. I like to call it atma and lets call it atma for this discussion.

I have no doubt that we are all atmas & all the above you said. But you have not explained how the atmas merge with each other ?

Is the merging temporary only during intimacy ?

What happens when the intimacy ends ?

What happens to merging when the couple breaks away or divorces ?

What happens to merging when one person dies ?

A mother is very intimate with her baby, esp during womb & breastfeeding. She gives her child unconditional love. Is her love for her child any less ? How come her soul does not merge with her daughter. How come her daughter needs a male soul to merge ?

 

My argument is that Atman is a drop from the Parmatma Ocean. Atman only merges with its source that is Parmatma.

Currently you are identifying yourself with Body & Mind.  The day you realize your soul/Atman you will become Parmatma. You will not need merging with Paramatma or another Atman.

In order to talk about these concepts of higher-consciousness in practical lives one must be realized or be an enlightened being. Merely book knowledge without experience is not enough imo.

Consciousness/Energy/Soul/Atma/Parmatma is everything & everywhere. It does not need any merging. If we are talking at that level then there is no way of disitinguishing one from another. And there is no such thing as sexual intimacy, love or emotions at that level. Nothing remains. Only Sat Chit Ananda Sarupa remains & that does not need any intimacy to take place.

But once you come down to lower consciousness yes intimacy of emotions, body, astral or ethereal or psyche does take place and leaves a psychic impression on each other.

But when you are talking about Souls or Atma there is no such things as merging of souls. Only merging of body, emotions, etheral/astral/mental bodies or psyche.

100% of us on this forum have not discovered Atma yet...so lets not throw big concepts of merging of Souls . Soul neither comes nor goes nor merge with any other soul. It only changes bodies due to ignorance or Agyanta.

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

In reality there is only ONEness.  But from our perspective, everything is separate. And obviously we need to experience separateness as part of our *collective* spiritual evolution. I am speaking from our perspective and not from the other side, where only exists ONEness.  My point is that sex is much more than physical. And in some small sense, it's the closest thing we in this human state can compare to merging (and even merging is wrong word) with another entity.  You describe it as a drop in an ocean. But reality is, the drop has never actually left the ocean. We have just forgotten we were here.  In fact I do not identify myself with this body.  This is why I fight so hard to oppose anyone being limited by their physical body just because someone else says so.  Gender is seemingly a huge part of the illusion. But it IS illusion nonetheless.  Anyway, always approach intimacy with your spouse as a huge merging of energy between you and not just physical pleasure.  

  

[Rock]

17 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

In reality there is only ONEness.  But from our perspective, everything is separate. And obviously we need to experience separateness as part of our *collective* spiritual evolution. I am speaking from our perspective and not from the other side, where only exists ONEness.  My point is that sex is much more than physical. And in some small sense, it's the closest thing we in this human state can compare to merging (and even merging is wrong word) with another entity.  You describe it as a drop in an ocean. But reality is, the drop has never actually left the ocean. We have just forgotten we were here.  In fact I do not identify myself with this body.  This is why I fight so hard to oppose anyone being limited by their physical body just because someone else says so.  Gender is seemingly a huge part of the illusion. But it IS illusion nonetheless.  Anyway, always approach intimacy with your spouse as a huge merging of energy between you and not just physical pleasure.  

  

ok good. I think I got my point across. Yeah obviously intimacy goes beyond the physical boundary no doubt.

[CdnSikhGirl]

1 hour ago, Rock said:

ok good. I think I got my point across. Yeah obviously intimacy goes beyond the physical boundary no doubt.

You didn't need to. We are thinking the same. You did not sway my thinking. 

[Sajjan_Thug]

Came across this interesting article which has a woman who also runs a Nanaksar Gurdwara.  I dont know but they might be married and run the Nanaksar Gudwara together 

 

www.sikhnet.com/news/aucklands-indian-students-frustrated-lack-support

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

Came across this interesting article which has a woman who also runs a Nanaksar Gurdwara.  I dont know but they might be married and run the Nanaksar Gudwara together 

 

www.sikhnet.com/news/aucklands-indian-students-frustrated-lack-support

Bro, Nanaksar Gurudwaras have management committees, like other regular Gurudwaras. Those members can be married or celibates, but to become part of a Nanaksar Jatha (the ones who do Kirtan on a full-time basis in the Gurdwara and live there), one has to be a celibate.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 3/31/2016 at 5:58 AM, ramgharia said:

papiman bhaiji i think you only supprts sampradas. are you a nanaksar celibate

 

Bro, all the Sampradas (which trace their origin to Satgurus) together make the Khalsa Panth.

Daas cannot support any cult or group or individual, which/who speaks against any part of Gurbani (which includes Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[JasperS]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, all the Sampradas (which trace their origin to Satgurus) together make the Khalsa Panth.

Daas cannot support any cult or group or individual, which speaks against any part of Gurbani (which includes Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

How can you say this when you yourself have spoken against Gurbani? 

[Guest guest]

On 31 March 2016 at 7:37 AM, akalpurkh said:

CELIBACY IN SPIRITUAL WORLD IS NOTHING, BUT JUST RUNNING AWAY FROM RESPONSIBILITIES.
 

I disagree.  I think that inner celibacy (celibacy of the mind) is conducive to spiritual progress.  But this is difficult for most people to obtain by forcefulness.  It comes in time by wisdom.

Also celibacy important for unmarried and youths.

[akalpurkh]

On 02/04/2016 at 7:41 PM, paapiman said:

Bro, all the Sampradas (which trace their origin to Satgurus) together make the Khalsa Panth.

@paapiman

 

On 02/04/2016 at 7:41 PM, paapiman said:

Daas cannot support any cult or group or individual, which/who speaks against any part of Gurbani (which includes Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee).

 

Ok now. So you cannot support any cult or group who speaks against Gurbani but you seems to be a great admirer of Nanaksar, the samprada who continues to follow the below tradition & belief which is nowhere close to the principles of Gurbani.

• Guru Granth is installed like an idol and access to an ordinary devotee is denied to it.
• The Sikh flag nishan sahib is not hoisted on the building.
• A, separate term is assigned to the Gurdwara i.e Thath or the abode of enjoyment..
• Sikhism condemns renunciation of family life, they have founded a group called Behangams the ascetics who are to remain unmarried throughout their lives.
• They specifically prohibit meat eating.
• They don't read Raj karega Khalsa couplet ordered by the Tenth Guru.
• They do  wear five Ks of the Sikhs, with a small sword of merely of an inch or two like a janeo of the Hindus.
• They don't believe in the free kitchen langar concept of Guru Nanak.
• They undertake penance 
• They don't subscribe to the concept of Sangat and instead give importance to individual saints.
• They have firm belief in pap-pun
• They do not subscribe to the Gurdwara practices of til-phul i.e humble offering according to ones means instead they separately or say secretly accept money.
• They don't subscribe to the traditional Prasad system of the Gurdwara and rather they accept sugar cubes from devotees which are clandestinely sold back to . the shops nearby.
• They observe auspicious/inauspicious days and dates.
• Since the Thaths are headed by so called saints there are often disputes as to possession of the Thaths and succession on the death of a saint.

[Koi]

1 hour ago, akalpurkh said:

@paapiman

 

Ok now. So you cannot support any cult or group who speaks against Gurbani but you seems to be a great admirer of Nanaksar, the samprada who continues to follow the below tradition & belief which is nowhere close to the principles of Gurbani.

• Guru Granth is installed like an idol and access to an ordinary devotee is denied to it.
• The Sikh flag nishan sahib is not hoisted on the building.
• A, separate term is assigned to the Gurdwara i.e Thath or the abode of enjoyment..
• Sikhism condemns renunciation of family life, they have founded a group called Behangams the ascetics who are to remain unmarried throughout their lives.
• They specifically prohibit meat eating.
• They don't read Raj karega Khalsa couplet ordered by the Tenth Guru.
• They do  wear five Ks of the Sikhs, with a small sword of merely of an inch or two like a janeo of the Hindus.
• They don't believe in the free kitchen langar concept of Guru Nanak.
• They undertake penance 
• They don't subscribe to the concept of Sangat and instead give importance to individual saints.
• They have firm belief in pap-pun
• They do not subscribe to the Gurdwara practices of til-phul i.e humble offering according to ones means instead they separately or say secretly accept money.
• They don't subscribe to the traditional Prasad system of the Gurdwara and rather they accept sugar cubes from devotees which are clandestinely sold back to . the shops nearby.
• They observe auspicious/inauspicious days and dates.
• Since the Thaths are headed by so called saints there are often disputes as to possession of the Thaths and succession on the death of a saint.

• Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is worshipped as the living Lord God Guru Nanak Sahib Ji

• The nishaan Sahib is not displayed everywhere Guru Granth Sahib Ji is (udasi/nirmala deras)

- they assign a separate term, so what? As the construction of the Guru ghar was kachaa , because Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji work tear down everything he built before leaving a place, it would not be Appropriate to call it Gurdwara

- they do not condemn grihst jivan. Simply not true

- they do read raj karega khalsa. Again, simply not true 

- they prohibit meat. That is 100% correct and right to do. Though not gonna debate this one

- whilst they do wear a small siri Sahib, they do keep all 5 k. Their lifestyle is different from say , an Akali Nihang

- they do have Langar. The sangat brings it ready made from outside.

- they undertake penance. So?

- they don't give importance to sangat? SIMPLY NOT TRUE. Baba Nand Singh Ji used to sit on a lower level than the sangat, "we are not worthy to sit equal to the sangat of Guru Nanak"

- paap pun do exist. Your point?

- secretly accept money? As in what? They don't even allow the offering of money (until recently )

- please see Langar point with regards to parshad

- not entirely true

- has been true in past

 

To be honest Satkiran, it appears that you've done a copy paste job here or been GROSSLY misinformed.  Please do thorough research into the origins of Nanaksar and Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj.