Interfaith Marriages question

[SAadmin]

I thought anand karaj ceremony composition itself is discourse(updesh) of self realization to couples rather than affirmation. 

Affirmation is right declaration amrit sanchar. 

Discourse does not require submission right way- usually its contemplated upon, deeply understood, practised upon its a process to affirmation-amrit sanchar or process to walk on the path of anand karaj, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th stage is life long process of one married life rather than direct affirmation like many christians do.

Updesh is for all, meant to be for all as anand karaj universal message of self realization in stages are universal in nature can be applied by everyone as ultimately Satguru is eternal gyan- its inner universal one god - inner supreme light-knowledge/consciouness within all.

Sure from context of being khalsa which should be also encouraged in anand karaj, affirmation is needed and declaration is needed to take amrit and consider sri guru granth sahib ji as our Guru.

But from universality/inclusivenss point of view, one can also relate to anand karaj on more deeper and personal level as Satguru is also true(Sat) Guru(pure consciouness/chainta) -iner guru within all.

So wit that universality meaning of Satguru/ inclusivness context kept in mind, anand karaj can still be performed continue as a discourse.

Whilst we all agree interfaith anand karaj carried out ceremonies and including punjabi anand karaj ceremonies have became a sham or empty ritual but these can turn into great opprutunity for parcharikhs to bring people in sikhi via in stages/ right parchar, than push away people by banning them all together from anand karaj or making it exclusiveness by providing them with no alternatives.

[SAadmin]

I always try go to essence, just imagine couples going guru gobind singh maharaj just to seek their blessing, you think guru maharaj would turn them down. Highly unlikely as nature of bhramgyani karak satuguru is of sam dristht- one undivided perception of oneness towards everyone. Anyway, we have broken system with hardly any parchar - either have alternative system like sikh chaplain reciting universal verses from gurbani love and marriage then blessing them with ardas if not grow a thicker skin and suck it up - do parchar of anand karaj, perform anand karaj ceremony to couples and do ardas leave it at that for higher power/ internal guru to draw couples in via shabad. Either way don't be arrogant condescending certified douche bag asshole go on this seva of banning marriages/individuals to have anand karaj- ruining someone wedding day. Banning/crashing interfaith marriages is new phenomena, none of previous parcharikhs or current ones gyani pinderpal singh/ gyani kulvant singh ji endorse this kinda of extreme behaviour. I challenged bhai jagraj singh to provide endorsement from them, he had no answers on facebook.

I say bring your cream top parcharik who is inciting youths to ban the wedding, lets have discussion here.  

[chatanga1]

19 hours ago, amardeep said:

Saleya tu ta bada wahabi nikleya

 

18 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I always knew you was a fudhu bundha.

Don't just throw people away because they don't fit your lofty standards fudhua.

 

Amardeep I'm very surprised to hear these harsh words from you. They are totally out of order. Other canadians have come out with more stupid stuff and worse stuff than this on the forum but you have tolerated or even ignored that. Even when these other canadians have posted outrageous statements and told lies and misrepresented gurbani and sikh praxis you have responded in another way.

I do not agree with paapiman's thought on this but your response is inappropriate especially being an admin.

Either keep the pistol in the holster or gun them ALL down.

One Dalsingh with coarse language on this forum is bad enough. We have come to expect these words (and attitude) from you Dal, as you have made a reputation for yourself for that, but where were these words when we were afflicted by the other canadian ?

 

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, N30 S!NGH said:

Banning/crashing interfaith marriages is new phenomena, none of previous parcharikhs or current ones gyani pinderpal singh/ gyani kulvant singh ji endorse this kinda of extreme behaviour. I challenged bhai jagraj singh to provide endorsement from them, he had no answers on facebook.

I say bring your cream top parcharik who is inciting youths to ban the wedding, lets have discussion here.  

 

Neo Brother, I agree with what you say, the way the interfaith marriages has been handled is wrong but the handling came from Sri Akal Takht Sahib. As they have issued a directive that we find is not working out, then we have should be asking Sri Akal Takht Sahib to reconsider and put a case forward WHILST still complying with it for the time being. Revolting against Sri Akal Takht Sahib over any issues will have SERIOUS implications in the future of the Panth. We can see now that certain people and organisations have dismissed Sri Akal Takht's directives and continue to disobey the directives. They have started a dangerous precedent which is going to really undermine Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

We shouldn't be inviting parcharaks who are banning weddings, rather presenting a case to Sri Akal Takht Sahib on why their directive is causing more harm than good.

 

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

One Dalsingh with coarse language on this forum is bad enough. We have come to expect these words (and attitude) from you Dal, as you have made a reputation for yourself for that, but where were these words when we were afflicted by the other canadian ?

 

What other Canadian? If you talking about Satkiran, I try and avoid arguing with jananian unless absolutely unavoidable. 

She has her own western feminist baggage to deal with. I've told her as much umpteen times. She's been put straight and I'm hoping time and experience will straighten her mind out. 

You should try to understand the powerful effects of upbringing and culture on people. Then you'd be in a better position to understand what you are dealing with, because it doesn't look like you do right now. 

[dalsingh101]

As for interfaith marriages, if people consider it a problem they should realise that these things are mostly influenced by ground level realities. Any top-down solutions aren't likely to have much effect (as we are seeing). Especially as our lot are so fiercely independent minded, and given that the Akal Takhat has been taken over by Badal and his corrupt cronies, and has lost a lot of prestige because of this.

[SAadmin]

Can someone take Amrit without their partner

In this katha by Giani Sant Singh Maskeen explains if an individual can take Amrit without their partner:

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/can-someone-take-amrit-without-their-partner/

[SAadmin]

Dal bro, easy with insults. As they say take it to southall. lol

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, N30 S!NGH said:

Dal bro, easy with insults. As they say take it to southall. lol

Okay, I amended my last two posts in light of this. 

[dalsingh101]

Can I add. I feel that Paapiman has been giving out some seriously unthoughtful advice to people who are obviously suffering from serious medical/psychological conditions lately (like with the fellow with OCD), you might want to consider some form of policy on this matter. I know he means well but...

I think unless there are compelling reasons to do otherwise (which may well be the case), we should avoid giving out bro-science advice to people with  serious medical or mental health issues and encourage them to seek experienced, expert help. 

[Ragmaala]

I think that Paapiman is only repeating what he has read in books or rehit maryada or heard in Katha. He does not have any intention to hurt anyone, only lacks social skills. He is not adding anything on his own. He is sticking to sources very closely. But what he does not know is how to mould himself according to the sangat that he is interacting with . He lacks Social Awareness, and does not realize that what he writes can put-off people in a wrong way. Rules in Sikhi are not black and white...there are different levels of spirituality, everyone is at a certain place. You have to deal with them in a sensible manner, develop a rapport with them, and then introduce them to certain hard-core concepts. Let the other person grow first, dont just enforce rules onto them. I will give few examples.

- for example, a little girl who lost her chunni:  One should go down to her, explain with love why it is important to cover head when eating food, and educate her how important it is to cover hair . Use love in words.  Another person scolds the little girl, and she is scarred for life. Even though both person were right, but the method of deliverance was wrong.

So one needs to modify their approach according to the sangat they are encountering.

If I am having a conversation with a non-veg, I am not going to introduce the topic of meat and say meat eating is banned. Even though, it is forbidden by Guru Ji but I dont have the kamai yet to tell someone to stop meat. They would be like, who the hell are you ?

For a person, who is not-amritshak, I am not going to bring up examples of Nigura- bashing from Guru Sahib, even though it is true that Nigure Ka hai nao bura...but you have to see the avastha of the next person.

Regardless, these harsh bachans that are used in Gurbani should only be used by complete Pooran Brahmgianis to lecture. They have shakti in their bachans, they can go upto a non-veg and say dont eat meat. He will stop for the rest of his life without any question. They can go upto a sharabi and tell him to stop sharab. The sharabi will stop. If I start doing the same, I would probably get into an altercation.

We, normal people should only spread love of Sikhi...and eventually the other person can come to terms with Sikhi.

In summary, the method of delivery is very important.  The avastha of other person should be kept in mind. Be diplomatic, and loving in your approach. That my take.

Other Singhs who have rishi-sidhi, shakti or powers can take their own approach as they see fit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dalsingh101]

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I think that Paapiman is only repeating what he has read in books or rehit maryada or heard in Katha. He does not have any intention to hurt anyone, only lacks social skills. He is not adding anything on his own. He is sticking to sources very closely. But what he does not know is how to mould himself according to the sangat that he is interacting with . He lacks Social Awareness, and does not realize that what he writes can put-off people in a wrong way. 

Let's not forget that giving people wrong advice on medical or psychological issues can very easily lead to their problems becoming exacerbated. Sometimes getting early treatment stops the condition from worsening, or being more deeply entrenched and thus more difficult to deal with. 

This is serious stuff. As much I understand that Paapiman may well come from an innocent place, no one should be allowing that to excuse poor advice on these things. That's straight dangerous and irresponsible. 

 

Plus we've already had decades of exclusionary behaviour from the moral police amongst us, who seem to be totally blind to social forces that act powerfully in people's lives. That plays some part in alienating people from their heritage and pushes them further away.  We are all seeing the consequences of this today. It needs to be stopped dead in its tracks. 

[amardeep]

I apologize @paapiman. That was out of order for me to say such things.

[chatanga1]

3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

What other Canadian? If you talking about Satkiran, I try and avoid arguing with jananian unless absolutely unavoidable. 

She has her own western feminist baggage to deal with. I've told her as much umpteen times. She's been put straight and I'm hoping time and experience will straighten her mind out. 

You should try to understand the powerful effects of upbringing and culture on people. Then you'd be in a better position to understand what you are dealing with, because it doesn't look like you do right now. 

 

You are trying to excuse your unjustified behaviour.

What baggage or upbringing they have had is neither here or there. Neither does gender. It's the way you choose to respond to them differently even though what Paapiman said was not really untrue from a historical perspective in itself. The things that satkiran said more worser, yet there was no swearing or stuff. You give dignified articulate responses to one and totally unnecessary use of language in another.

 

[dalsingh101]

21 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

 

You are trying to excuse your unjustified behaviour.

What baggage or upbringing they have had is neither here or there. Neither does gender. It's the way you choose to respond to them differently even though what Paapiman said was not really untrue from a historical perspective in itself. The things that satkiran said more worser, yet there was no swearing or stuff. You give dignified articulate responses to one and totally unnecessary use of language in another.

 

Wake up! You don't talk to girls like you do guys. 

 

They are likely to start crying a lot more easily. 

 

Satkiran didn't say anything that wasn't typical of someone with a western feminist brainwashing - and I called her on it repeatedly. 

 

I didn't want to go on and on, because I didn't want to end up looking like one half of two nasty, b1tchy jananiaan at it - that's what you looked like btw. Seriously. 

 

 

 

 

[GurpreetKaur]

21 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

 

You are trying to excuse your unjustified behaviour.

What baggage or upbringing they have had is neither here or there. Neither does gender. It's the way you choose to respond to them differently even though what Paapiman said was not really untrue from a historical perspective in itself. The things that satkiran said more worser, yet there was no swearing or stuff. You give dignified articulate responses to one and totally unnecessary use of language in another.

 

Are you mad because he cursed at Paapiman ji or that he did not curse at satkirin ji? ..Satkirin ji was called a lot of bad stuff and I don't wanna repeat it. Not saying calling Paapiman ji Fu*** was right but now let's not go around calling women Fu*** to bring equality.lol

[chatanga1]

53 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

Let's not forget that giving people wrong advice on medical or psychological issues can very easily lead to their problems becoming exacerbated. Sometimes getting early treatment stops the condition from worsening, or being more deeply entrenched and thus more difficult to deal with. 

This is serious stuff. As much I understand that Paapiman may well come from an innocent place, no one should be allowing that to excuse poor advice on these things. That's straight dangerous and irresponsible.

 

If you notice that, then you should either post a different alternative or bring it to the attention of the admins.

[chatanga1]

27 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

Are you mad because he cursed at Paapiman ji

not mad, not because it was paapiman but because it was unwarranted.

[dalsingh101]

12 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

 

If you notice that, then you should either post a different alternative or bring it to the attention of the admins.

Well I have, and everyone else too. 

 

Think of it as a discussion point.

 

Yes, I can see scenarios where going against prescribed wisdom may be warranted (i.e. taking statins for cholesterol), but that naive chaal maar kay jumping in to give advice to people who are obviously suffering from serious conditions - and being clueless about it - that's going to far.

 

 

 

Quote

not mad, not because it was paapiman but because it was unwarranted.

Your he-b1tch fit with Satkiran was untasteful to me but I let you get on with it. Even Amardeep (admin) kept telling you two to get a room, and you still went on and on. 

 

Pot calling the kettle black or what. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Hey don't bring me into this!  

As for western feminism, I am against putting men down too! The ONLY thing I want to see is equal OPPORTUNITY in regards to Sikhi for both Singhs and Kaurs! The only things I am against are seeing women as 'subordinates' to men and putting restrictions on Kaurs that Singhs do not have with regards to seva.  

I would be happy if only two things would happen:  

1. Singhs and Kaurs have equal opportunity and rights to do ALL SEVA.  In other words, gender should NOT come into seva at all, rather only their merit should. This is according to Panthic Rehet Maryada!  This has nothing to do with western feminism. It's humanism. It's seeing the Divine Light equally in ALL. This is in Gurbani!!!! Treating every Sikh the same.  Kaurs are not somehow 'less' Amritdhari than are Singhs. In the same light I hate seeing men I know treated badly too especially with divorces etc.  But just because some mem are treated badly in divorces etc in the West, doesn't mean women should be kept from doing seva in Sikhi just for being female!!  Two wrongs don't make a right! Point blank, if a Singh can do seva, a Kaur can do it too. 

2. Stop this idea that wives are subordinate to their husbands. Gurbani teaches that husband and wife are equal. Cultural influence *while acknowledged and practiced IF the parties choose to do so* is not actually part of Sikhi. In Sikhi, husband and wife are equal and are ONE. There is no wives must be obedient thing, while the husbands get to dictate and control.  There is no wives must see husbands as God. At least not in the religion...  So why try and teach it as part of Sikhi? Just acknowledge that SOME Sikhs are ok living like that as per their cultural upbringing. Others are not. But it's definitely NOT part of the religion itself.

So in summary the only things that P*SS me off are women being put into a subordinate role as if we are supposed to be under male control / authority.  We are human beings with same rights as you.  

----

As for interfaith marriages, just as a note:

I had to change my name PRIOR to getting married in India! As per that hukamnama from 2007.  I didn't have to make any sort of statement that I would follow Sikhi, because of my story in the news etc everyone knew I was following it already.  But they DO enforce this in India.  At least in Gurdwaras following Sikh Rehet Maryada, and who follow Akal Takht. As I mentioned before it was a Historical Gurdwara (Chatti Patshahi) in Srinagar.  It's not run by DDT or anything. Maybe DDT since they don't follow Akal Takht don't follow that rule about interfaith marriages... I don't know.  

 

 

 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Not saying I agree either way personally but here is that hukamnama...

 

[dalsingh101]

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1. Singhs and Kaurs have equal opportunity and rights to do ALL SEVA. 

You're preaching to the converted here, I haven't got anything against this myself. I think the point is to do some seva, if you feel someone has blocked you from doing x sewa, don't go into a loop about it, move on and find other sewa to do. Waheguru will sort these things out in due time.  

 

Quote

2. Stop this idea that wives are subordinate to their husbands.

We discussed this before ad-naseum. Let couples find the type of partner that suits them i.e. dominant, submissive or one that believes in and practices equality. 

Don't worry about what other people's maryada says to them, chose the one that fits you (like you have) and adhere to that one. Don't look around too much. Focus on you and your partners personal journey.  

[chatanga1]

On 06/03/2016 at 9:50 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Your he-b1tch fit with Satkiran was untasteful to me but I let you get on with it. Even Amardeep (admin) kept telling you two to get a room, and you still went on and on. 

Pot calling the kettle black or what. 

 

It was untasteful to me as well re-repeating the same things to an inherently devious person, but the point is I didn't let myself descend to using obscenities.

 

[chatanga1]

On 06/03/2016 at 9:07 PM, GurpreetKaur said:

Are you mad because he cursed at Paapiman ji or that he did not curse at satkirin ji? ..Satkirin ji was called a lot of bad stuff and I don't wanna repeat it. Not saying calling Paapiman ji Fu*** was right but now let's not go around calling women Fu*** to bring equality.lol

Let's not call anyone that name to bring equality. Wouldn't that be a better alternative?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

 

It was untasteful to me as well re-repeating the same things to an inherently devious person, but the point is I didn't let myself descend to using obscenities.

 

So calling someone nindak is not an obscenity now?  You have called Satkirin Ji that and worse, and I seem to remember the entire thing with you two started because you sent her a PM trying to get her to leave the forum and called her vulgar for wanting equality and she posted your PM openly for everyone to see.  In other words, it was you who started the whole thing sending a ridiculous PM trying to get her to leave. Just for your information, I too want to see equality of our sisters and mothers and daugters and I am a Singh. Will you ask me to leave too? I have a 6 year old daughter and I want a world where this is no longer this fight. I want to see a world where she can strive to do anything a Singh can especially in Sikhi and not be seen as inferior (or pressured into leaving a forum for wanting to be treated equally or be called nindak because she believes in what gurbani teaches on equality or questions things). From our perspective, Satkirin Ji only ever jumped in in defence at you. However you outright attacked her at every turn. So you have no right to jump on someone else for calling Paapiman Ji anything.