Sikhs visiting graves - opinions

[dalsingh101]

Recently I've been reflecting on an old neighbour, he was around when I was a kid, we talked a lot, I guess with hindsight I can say we were close. He passed away a few years ago after leaving the area to live with his (grown up) children (he'd been living with them for a fair few years - like 10).

I got to see him once (after he had left the area) when he came out of hospital for some illness. We had long lost touch prior to that. Then we lost touch again and I heard he had passed away a few years after the event.

To cut to the quick, I felt like visiting his grave. I know that they are only his physical remains and his soul is elsewhere. I know we don't really have these things in our culture as we generally cremate. 

I was just wondering what people's thoughts are on Sikhs visiting graves (out of curiosity)? Regulars should know that I'm probably going to do what I'm going to do regardless of any opinions - but I wouldn't mind hearing them nonetheless.  

 

[samurai]

I don't think its a big deal, if you feel like going then do what you got to do.. Its more to do with you and what your gonna feel when you go. When my nani passed away i would go to her house and just sit there, i didn't even know why.. It made me think about death and the reality of it at the same time really understanding that no one really dies man..I could share more but feel not to, but i do feel its not really about the grave itself but the thoughts/feelings that will become pargat when you go. But you need to be in a certain environment for this to happen..I think 'guru' does this on purpose.. 

[amardeep]

I think Sikhi forbids going there to pray thinking that the person buried there can be a middle chain between you and God (a common Sufi thought). But I dont think there is anything wrong in going to the place where a person is buried to remember that person.

The early Sikhs created "Shaheed Ganjs" over the place where Gurus and famous Sikhs had been martyred. And Sikhs today go to these places to remember and honour their sacrifices. Some have even suggested that the Oka Creek Gurdwara in America should be acknowledged as a Shaheed ganj Gurdwara.

Edited April 17, 2016 by amardeep

[amardeep]

I'll be going to see Rumi's grave in Turkey in a couple of weeks. I had similiar thoughts so good you brought this up.

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, amardeep said:

I'll be going to see Rumi's grave in Turkey in a couple of weeks. I had similiar thoughts so good you brought this up.

We've got our Gurus who are our spiritual leaders, that's why we are Sikh and not something else -  I guess it's cool to visit other places, as long as no one supplants our Gurus in our minds. If that makes sense.

For me, my visit (if it ever happens - I have no idea where he is buried, don't know how I would contact his family to find out right now?) will probably be more of a nostalgic, emotional thing. It's not religious in any way. 

[BhagatSingh]

2 hours ago, amardeep said:

I think Sikhi forbids going there to pray thinking that the person buried there can be a middle chain between you and God (a common Sufi thought).

What are shaheed singhs if not a middle chain between you and God?

People report being guided by older dead sikhs all the time.

[dalsingh101]

37 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

What are shaheed singhs if not a middle chain between you and God?

People report being guided by older dead sikhs all the time.

People report a lot of ish, a fair portion is probably generated from their own minds and wishful thinking. 

Shaheed Singhs are examples of people who've sacrificed all for the truth. They've achieved a level of physical bravery that most people will never get close to. Most people don't like self-sacrifice, even on little bull5hit luxuries in their lives - let alone putting your neck on the line (literally) - so they (mentally) twist the actions of shaheeds into some next convoluted thing instead of actually trying to comprehend (let alone act on) the pure and simple idea of physical bravery and sacrifice from being nirbhau (without fear) in the truest and most extreme sense for humans. 

[BhagatSingh]

I'm talking about ghosts. There are certain spirits that guide people.

[paapiman]

Sikhs are not suppose to worship the graves. It is a form of Idol worship, which is forbidden in Gurmat.

IMHO, visiting a grave should not be a problem.

With regards to Shaheed Singhs, Sikhs respect them, but do not worship them. Only worship of the Almighty Waheguru, is permitted in Sikhism.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

I thought you were pro-idol worship.

 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

I thought you were pro-idol worship.

 

During initial stages of spirituality, pictures can assist a person to stabilize his wandering mind, but Gurmat's primary focus is on listening to the Naad of Gurbani.

Gur kee Moorat refers to Guru Shabad 

Gur Moorat Guru Shabad Hai

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

During initial stages of spirituality, pictures can assist a person to stabilize his wandering mind, but Gurmat's primary focus is on listening to the Naad of Gurbani.

Gur kee Moorat refers to Guru Shabad 

Gur Moorat Guru Shabad Hai

No Murti means Idol or Image. Guru ki Murti means Guru's Idol or Image.

Thinking about the Guru's murti - thinking about his face, his feet, his embrace, etc. And meditating on his form.

If Guru sahib wanted to say shabad, he would have said shabad. And here you can see Guru Sahib make a distinction-

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨ ॥
The Guru's Murti, Guru's image is what you focus on.
And Guru's Shabads, Guru's words is what become your mantra, incantations.

So you focus on Guru's image and you repeat Guru's words as mantras. Therefore becoming one with the Guru.

 

Think about it.

[jaikaara]

Yaar i dont think it is something not okay if you are visiting his grave. You arent praying to him , you have had attachment so you are just paying your respect . No big deal about it .

 

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, jaikaara said:

Yaar i dont think it is something not okay if you are visiting his grave. You arent praying to him , you have had attachment so you are just paying your respect . No big deal about it .

 

That's how I see it. 

 

 

[amardeep]

Some of the early rahitname forbid visiting graves. But that is in a different context. The context then was peer worship where one would "worship" the saint and see him as a intermediate between oneself and God.

Im not sure how Sikhs use the Shaheedi Singhs.

 

 

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, amardeep said:

Some of the early rahitname forbid visiting graves. But that is in a different context. The context then was peer worship where one would "worship" the saint and see him as a intermediate between oneself and God.

Im not sure how Sikhs use the Shaheedi Singhs.

 

Thing with some weak minded apnay is that they start jumping around promiscuously between religious figureheads as in the above. I think that is the underlying reason for a ban on worshipping graves. Humans (especially Indians!)  are generally utilitarian, they will cling to anything that they feel will bring them auspicious advantages (more so in generally uneducated societies). 

That's how you got all those confused people who'd be looking like Amritdhari Sikhs but also worshipping Sakhi Sarvaar or something similar in the past.

It's interesting for me to see how impressions made so long ago are now coming back to me and I'm reflecting on them and feeling certain emotions. 

Regarding Sikhs visiting the graves of religious significance to other faiths - I think people who are prone to excess emotion or have a weak sense of Sikh identity should maybe avoid doing this. Especially visible Sikhs. 

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, amardeep said:

Some of the early rahitname forbid visiting graves. But that is in a different context.

Well rehitnamay aren't the authority.

Quote

The context then was peer worship where one would "worship" the saint and see him as a intermediate between oneself and God.

So just like how we worship Guru Sahib? ;)

Guru Nanak shah fakir
Hinduon ka guru Musalmano ka pir

We are all connected.

 

Quote

Im not sure how Sikhs use the Shaheedi Singhs.

The shaheed Singhs guide people, they watch over us. Those who are receptive to them, will be able to take the guidance.

By shaheed, it just means any exalted sikh who passed away, not necessarily in battle or something like that. After passing away they guide from the other dimension.

And as Dally says, a lot of it could be wishful thinking. The people preaching about shaheed singhs are the people who've usually only heard the stories and they go around claiming all sorts of things. It is wishful thinking on their part.

However people who often talk about ghosts/ spirits guiding them are usually experiencing it and it's a reality for them. They don't tell everyone for that reason they keep it to themselves or only reveal it to people who appear open to the idea.

but then some of those people blurt it out to others... lol

[JustAnotherSingh]

Ancestor worship has been a central feature of Jatt spiritual life for centuries, if not millennia. I personally have my doubts that actual Shaheed-Singh ghosts guide people (for various reasons I can elaborate on if needed), but I think certain facets of how we revere Shaheedan in particular is a byproduct of that culture. 

 

I know that my [blood] ancestors had aided Guru Sahib in the Battle of Chamkaur (our pind is near the battle-site) and some of them had died in the fight. There was a samadhi made in the reverence for the "[my gotra] Shaheed Singh's." My father didn't visit when he was younger because he felt it was contrary to the injunctions Sikhi has against ancestor worship (which I agree has a good purpose as @dalsingh101 outlined). The samadhis were later destroyed by kharkus (lol) but rebuilt. The last time we went to India, my father still noted that he didn't like the extreme culture of ancestor worship that permeated his family and elders when he was younger, but didn't feel as strongly against it as he had in his youth. It was sort of cool to see the samadhis and recognize their significance.

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Thing with some weak minded apnay is that they start jumping around promiscuously between religious figureheads as in the above. I think that is the underlying reason for a ban on worshipping graves. Humans (especially Indians!)  are generally utilitarian, they will cling to anything that they feel will bring them auspicious advantages (more so in generally uneducated societies). 

This is why Guru Nam Dev ji instructed his sikhs not to worship Shiva, Bhairav, Devi, etc and to only worship Ram as instructed by the Gita.

Indians have this buffet of religions laid out in front of them and they jump from one to the other, without tasting any one fully.

However that said....

3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

That's how you got all those confused people who'd be looking like Amritdhari Sikhs but also worshipping Sakhi Sarvaar or something similar in the past.

... one must be careful with this because not all people going around to, what appears as worship of all kinds of different things, are flimsy in their own path.

You can be firm in your own path and still worship and appreciate things outside of that.

A general rule however one should stick to one tradition.

[BhagatSingh]

11 minutes ago, JustAnotherSingh said:

Ancestor worship has been a central feature of Jatt spiritual life for centuries, if not millennia. I personally have my doubts that actual Shaheed-Singh ghosts guide people (for various reasons I can elaborate on if needed), but I think certain facets of how we revere Shaheedan in particular is a byproduct of that culture.

Ancestor worship exists in all communities not just Jatts.

Ancestor worship is fine, it comes naturally and effortlessly.

Even the kattarh Singhs who are against ancestor worship, who might even go around decimating graves, also do ancestor worship. They say "Guru Gobind Singh ji is my father (making Guru sahib their ancestor) and they worship him and emulate him, even go as far as to wear the same pagg as he wore in Sobha Singh ji's paintings... nevermind the fact that guru sahib didn't wear anything like that.

Point is that that is ancestor worship as well whether they admit it or not.

And they never will because they want to show that they are aliens who have landed from outer space lol, ie that they are distinct from all other communities when they are not.

[BhagatSingh]

12 minutes ago, JustAnotherSingh said:

It was sort of cool to see the samadhis and recognize their significance.

Recognizing the significance is the beginning of worship.

Worship is not in puja thalis or bowing down 10 times a second. Those things are fine in themselves and perhaps necessary. However worship truly starts from recognizing the significance of something, and then going really deep so as to feel its presence itself.

Last weekend, I saw an old man weep when looking at the paintings of Guru Sahibs, of Guru Arjun Dev ji. He not only saw the significance but he told me that he also felt Guru Sahib's presence right there.

[paganvegan]

16 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

No Murti means Idol or Image. Guru ki Murti means Guru's Idol or Image.

Thinking about the Guru's murti - thinking about his face, his feet, his embrace, etc. And meditating on his form.

If Guru sahib wanted to say shabad, he would have said shabad. And here you can see Guru Sahib make a distinction-

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨ ॥
The Guru's Murti, Guru's image is what you focus on.
And Guru's Shabads, Guru's words is what become your mantra, incantations.

So you focus on Guru's image and you repeat Guru's words as mantras. Therefore becoming one with the Guru.

 

Think about it.

I thought about it and IMHO it makes a lot of sense to me.  I don't know why people misinterpret the Gubani so much.  How can Guru's Shabad be Guru's Murti?  But when you say becoming one with the Guru, do you mean dehtarry Guru?

[dalsingh101]

Quote

Last weekend, I saw an old man weep when looking at the paintings of Guru Sahibs, of Guru Arjun Dev ji. He not only saw the significance but he told me that he also felt Guru Sahib's presence right there.

I think this is a psychological effect myself. The use of visual triggers to release emotions built up from powerful sakhis imbibed from childhood. Plus some people naturally seem way more sentimental than others.

If anything was to make us feel the presence of Guru Arjan Dev  ji the strongest, it would probably be their bani.

 

But the above does illustrate the power of art. 

[dalsingh101]

Quote

Ancestor worship has been a central feature of Jatt spiritual life for centuries, if not millennia. I personally have my doubts that actual Shaheed-Singh ghosts guide people (for various reasons I can elaborate on if needed), but I think certain facets of how we revere Shaheedan in particular is a byproduct of that culture. 

Here we go with the jat gibberish. Give it a rest mate. Some of us are sick to death of it. 

I don't think it is a by product of 'that culture' at all, I think it's more to do with the shockingly profound nature of the sacrifice itself  that draws people to the shaheeds. Martyrs in all communities leave a deep mark. Extreme physical bravery often does.  

It's at least partly due to the awe we feel at them doing things we couldn't (or wouldn't) ourselves, for things we ourselves claim a belief in and commitment too. The level of commitment that shaheeds show is mind-blowing and awe inspiring in contrast. 

[dalsingh101]

Quote

By shaheed, it just means any exalted sikh who passed away, not necessarily in battle or something like that. After passing away they guide from the other dimension.

That's not really a definition of Sikh shaheed though, really it refers to someone who has sacrificed their life for the Sikh cause.