The Truth about Hemkunt

[HappyDays]

Even though the title says "truth about hemkunt" I'm not saying if this is true or not just sharing. I thought I would share something my grandpa told me. He told me that the real Hemkunt is a place within where Guru Gobind Singh Ji meditated. It is not a physical place, it is sookham. 

About his own life Guru Gobind Singh writes in his auto-biography: -

ਅਬ ਮੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ ॥ ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮ੝ਹਿ ਆਨੋ ॥

Ab main apnee katha bakhaano. Tap saadhat iih bidh muhe aano.

Now I relate my own story as to how I was brought here. While I was absorbed in deep meditation.

ਹੇਮ ਕ੝ੰਟ ਪਰਬਤ ਹੈ ਜਹਾਂ ॥ ਸਪਤ ਸ੝ਰਿੰਗ ਸੋਭਿਤ ਹੈ ਤਹਾਂ ॥੧॥

Hemkunt Parbat hai jahaan, Sapt sring sobhit hai tahaan .1.

The site was the mountain named Hemkunt, with seven peaks and looks there very impressive .1.

ਸਪਤ ਸ੝ਰਿੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮ੝ ਕਹਾਵਾ ॥ ਪੰਡ੝ ਰਾਜ ਜਹ ਜੋਗ੝ ਕਮਾਵਾ ॥

Satptsring teh naam kahawa. Pand raaj jahan jog kamava

That mountain is called Sapt Shring (seven-peaked mountain), where the Pandavas Practised Yoga.

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥

teh ham adhik tapasaya sadhi. mahakaal akalka aradhi .2.

There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme Being .2.

(Srigranth p132)

"My father and mother meditated on the incomprehensible. They both practiced the highest yoga through diverse spiritual efforts. Their devout service in the love of God pleased the Almighty who commanded me to take human form in this world. I did not like to come. God sent me into the world with a mandate saying, 'I cherish thee as my son and send thee to establish the path of truth. Go into the world and establish virtue and keep the people, away from evil.'When my father came to Triveni (Allahabad) he daily devoted himself to meditation and charity. There at Allahabad the dazzling light manifested itself into human form."

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਿਸਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੝ਵੈ ਤੇ ਝਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੝ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥

Ih bidh karat tappsaya bhayo. Davai te ek roop havai gayo.

In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.

ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਮ੝ਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਬਹ੝ ਬਿਧਿ ਜੋਗ ਸਾਧਨਾ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੩॥

taat maat mur alakh araahaa. bahu beedh jog saahdna sahdaa ॥3॥

My parents also meditated for the union with the Incomprehensible Lord and performed many types of disciplines for union.3.

ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਝ ਪ੝ਰਸੰਨਿ ਗ੝ਰਦੇਵਾ ॥

tin jo karee alakh kee sevaa. taa tay bhaay prasanni gurdava ॥

The service that they rendered the Incomprehensible Lord, caused the pleasure of the Supreme Guru (i.e. Lord).

ਤਿਨ ਪ੝ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮ੝ਹਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਆ ॥੪॥

tin prabh jab aaees muh theeaa. tab hamm janam kaloo mahi leeaa ॥4॥

When the Lord ordered me, I was born in this Iron age.4.

ਚਿਤ ਨ ਭਯੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਆਵਨ ਕਹਿ ॥ ਚ੝ਭੀ ਰਹੀ ਸ੝ਰ੝ਤਿ ਪ੝ਰਭ੝ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਹਿ ॥

Chit na bhayo hamro aavan kaih. Chubhi rahee srut Prabhu chaman maih

I had no desire to come, because I was totally absorbed in devotion for the Holy feet of the Lord.

ਜਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਪ੝ਰਭ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਿਹ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੫॥

Jio tio Prabh ham ko samjhaayo. Im Kaih kai ih lok Pathaayo.

But the Lord made me understand His Will and sent me in this world with the following words.5.

Triveni is the same as Trikuti. Where the 3 rivers meet. Guru Tegh Bahadur was at trikuti and that's where the dazzling light manifested itself into human form. 

"You have said that by resolving consciously to withdraw inside, or at the time of death, the entire life energy shrinks and returns to the center for the purpose of turning into a seed once again. At which center does the energy shrink? Does it concentrate at the agya chakra, at the navel, or at some other point? Which is the most important chakra, and why?

This requires a little consideration. The whole energy will of course shrink before death occurs. Before one embarks on a new journey, the energy which is otherwise dispersed all over the body will return to a point. This is the same as when one moves from a house – he collects all his important belongings. When he lived there, all kinds of things were spread out in every part of the house, from the bathroom to the living room. So at the time of moving, he sorts out his possessions. He throws away the junk, packs up the important stuff, and sets out on a new journey.

Just as we abandon one life, one body, and commence the journey of another life, another body – similarly the consciousness which was spread out withdraws and once again becomes the seed. Up to now it functioned as an actuality; now it will once again become a potentiality, because now, like a seed, it will enter a new body.

Just as a tree leaves seeds behind before dying, similarly the body too leaves behind seeds before it meets death. What we call sperm or ova are the seeds left by the body at the time of death. These are the seeds released prior to death, in anticipation of death. The sperm contains the entire built-in program of your body, it contains the exact replica of your body. As the body gets ready to depart, it leaves behind the tiny seed. This phenomenon occurs at one level – the physical. Similarly, consciousness, on a different level, gathers itself and becomes a seed in order to enter the seed present in some other body.

All journeys begin with the seed and end with the seed. Remember, that which is the beginning is also the end. The journey’s cycle ends where it started. We begin from a seed, we end up again as a seed. So the question is: at the moment of death, at which center would the consciousness gather to shrink and become a seed? It would, of course, gather at the very center you have lived through all your life. It would concentrate at the center which was most valuable to you in your life, because that was your most active center; one should say, that was the very point from where your whole vital energy functioned.

For example, if a man lived his whole life obsessed with sex, if he knew nothing beyond sex, if sex was all he lived for – he earned wealth to enjoy sex, he went after a high position in the pursuit of sex, he wanted to have good health so that he could indulge more into sex – if sex was the most predominant center functioning in his life, then that is where the entire energy will converge at the moment of death. Then his new journey will begin from the sex center. Why? – because his next birth will be an ongoing journey of the same sex-obsessed center. This man’s consciousness will gather at the sex center in the dying moments, and that is the point where his life will come to an end. His life energy will leave through his genitalia. Had this man lived through a different center, the energy would have concentrated and left from that center. The center around which one’s life has revolved is the center from where he will depart. The place where he dwelt the whole life will be the place from where he will depart. Therefore, a yogi can leave from the agya chakra, and a lover from his heart chakra. The life energy of an enlightened man would leave from the sahasrar, the seventh chakra – his skull will break open as he departs from there.

The point from where one makes an exit is the conclusive proof of how one has lived his life. Such techniques were discovered in the past that by looking at a dead body one could say through which chakra, through which door the consciousness left the body. All the chakras are doors for entrance as well as for exit. The soul will use the same door for entering another body which it used for exiting the dying body. The soul will enter the new cell in a mother’s womb through the same door from which it came out at the previous death – that’s the only door it knows.

Therefore, the mental condition of the father and the mother, as well as their state of consciousness at the time of intercourse, determine what kind of soul will enter the womb, because only that type of consciousness, that kind of soul will be attracted to seek that womb which fits with the center closest to the minds of the father and mother during the intercourse. If two individuals who have gone deep into meditation make love not with the desire for sexual pleasure, but as an experiment in giving birth to a soul – they can make use of the highest possible chakras for that purpose.

This is the reason why the higher souls have to wait for a long time – because they need a womb of a higher quality, which is very difficult to find. Hence, many good souls cannot take birth again for hundreds of years. The same is the case with many of the evil souls. The ordinary souls are born right away. They take birth instantly, without any difficulty, because many suitable wombs are available to them every day. About one hundred and eighty thousand births take place every day, excluding the number of people dying. Every day about two hundred thousand souls can enter as many wombs – but this applies only to the ordinary souls.

Many souls, who after great difficulty were born on this earth, have been forced to take birth on other planets. The earth became incapable of giving them birth again. This is the same as if a scientist born in India were to find a suitable job in America. He would be born on our soil, we would provide him with food and water, care and nourishment, but not a single living opportunity befitting his background and training. Obviously, he is forced to seek a position in America.

Today, most of the scientists from all different parts of the world have settled down in America. This is bound to be so. In the same manner, although we help souls evolve on this earth we do not make available a suitable womb for their next birth. Naturally, they are forced to seek opportunities for birth on other planets." - Rajneesh Osho                                                                                                                                                                I know many people don't like Osho but he was something special. So here he states "All the chakras are doors for entrance as well as for exit. The soul will use the same door for entering another body which it used for exiting the dying body. The soul will enter the new cell in a mother’s womb through the same door from which it came out at the previous death – that’s the only door it knows.

Therefore, the mental condition of the father and the mother, as well as their state of consciousness at the time of intercourse, determine what kind of soul will enter the womb, because only that type of consciousness, that kind of soul will be attracted to seek that womb which fits with the center closest to the minds of the father and mother during the intercourse."           Guru Gobind Singh Ji was conceived in Agya Chakra(Triveni) then took birth in Patna Sahib. In Guru Gobind Singh Ji writing it says Guru Tegh Bahadur his father went to many places of pilgrimage before reaching Triveni where Guru Gobind Singh Ji was conceived. The places of pilgrimage were not outward physical places it's referring to Guru Tegh Bahadurs inward spiritual journey. It was talking about his internal pilgrimmage from naabhi to trikuti. The physical place said to be Hemkunt is not true. The real Hemkunt is a place within us that we can see, experience and meditate at once we reach a certain stage. This confusion is similar to "Amritsar". Many Sikhs think Amritsar refers to the physical Golden Temple but the spiritual ones know what it truly refers to.

                 

[Ragmaala]

So you are saying that Guru Teg Bahadur Jis  & Mata Gujri Jis consciousness was in Agya Chakra when they had physical intercourse.

First of all , Gurus did not have intercourse , and they did not get into womb. They entered the body after it comes out of the womb. This is a theme shared by all great Brahmgyanis in Sikhi.

Also, Amritsar & Hemkund are both real as well as inner experiences.  Every inner experience has a real physical manifestation for eg. Amrit Ceremony.

So I am not sure what are you trying to say ?

 

[Lucky]

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

So you are saying that Guru Teg Bahadur Jis  & Mata Gujri Jis consciousness was in Agya Chakra when they had physical intercourse.

First of all , Gurus did not have intercourse , and they did not get into womb. They entered the body after it comes out of the womb. This is a theme shared by all great Brahmgyanis in Sikhi.

Also, Amritsar & Hemkund are both real as well as inner experiences.  Every inner experience has a real physical manifestation for eg. Amrit Ceremony.

So I am not sure what are you trying to say ?

 

I understand what he is saying about Prayag and triveni.   However, the physical interaction does not really come into it and it doesn't have to. It's just that our intellect tells us that they must have engaged in physical activity to conceive, whereas they don't. Remember, our bodies are 5 elements and so is maya. If you can go beyond that veil into the Truth, then it is possible to have no engagement in the 5 tat maya in order to bring a pure product of Truth.

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

First of all , Gurus did not have intercourse , and they did not get into womb. They entered the body after it comes out of the womb. This is a theme shared by all great Brahmgyanis in Sikhi.

This is simply a misunderstanding of verses such as - ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਬਸੈ ॥ - and taking them out of context.

Everyone comes from the womb, even special people. And there is always intercourse of some kind that is involved in the creation process.

Even our father, Hari, is referred to as  -

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਾਲ ਰੰਗ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ - one who has sex with Shri, matter, that which is material and physical has been penetrated by the spirit that is Hari. The universe is a mix of spiritual and physical. He is the spirit of the universe, the supreme consciousnss.

This is why he is known as the husband of Maya Lakshmi.
ਮਾਧਵ - ਮਾਯਾ ਦਾ ਧਵ/ ਪਤੀ - the one who is the husband of Maya/matter/
ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ - ਕਮਲਾ ਦਾ ਪਤਿ -  the husband of Kamla/ Lakshmi/ matter. The spirit is the husband of the material and physical.

 

This is why he is known as ਨਰਾਇਣ , one who dwells inside of man ਨਰ. And that which dwells in man dwells everywhere else as well. ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥

This is why he is known as the Pran Adhar, the basis of life. ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥ Narayan is the very base on which your life is seated, without Narayan, consciousness, there would be no experiences to be had.

 

ਆਪੇ ਅੰਡਜ ਜੇਰਜ ਸੇਤਜ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਆਪੇ ਖੰਡ ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ ॥
Guru Sahib explains the ways Hari is born - (ਅੰਡਜ ਜੇਰਜ ਸੇਤਜ ਉਤਭੁਜ) consciousness is born in the eggs, born in the wombs, born in dampness, and sprouts up from the soil. He is the ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ - that one who dwells in all things. (ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ) He is in all the realms.
 

Hari penetrates everything.

 

So if Guru Sahibs are Hari swaroop ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥, then they too were born from the womb as Hari creates, were they not?

Guru Angad Dev ji prays -
ਮਾਤ ਗਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਦੇ ਤਹ ਤੁਮ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰੇ ॥
In the mother's womb, you gave us your simran and protected us.

ਪਾਵਕ ਸਾਗਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਲਹਰਿ ਮਹਿ ਤਾਰਹੁ ਤਾਰਨਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
Through the countless waves of the ocean of fire, please, carry us across and save us, O Savior Lord! ||1||

ਮਾਧੌ ਤੂ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਤੁਹਾਰੋ ਧੋਰਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Madhav, you are are my master. You are my support here in this world and there in the next.

[BhagatSingh]

@Lucky
To go beyond the five elements doesn't mean you abandon them and go into lala land where you are made of fairy dust.

The reality of life, the laws set up by Hari will still remain even after you transcend them. You will die if you get run over by a truck. You will get fat if you eat too much food. You will become tired if you exercise too much. You will get injured if someone slashes you with a knife.

To put it bluntly for those over 25 - Once you become enlightened you will still have to have sex with a woman to produce a child. You can't chant some mantras and start ejaculating little babies. However when you do chant mantras, the nature of sex is transformed into something different. This is for you to find out as you do your spiritual practice.

[Ragmaala]

lol I have no problem in what people believe based on their understanding, intellect or experience etc.

but it is a clearly established fact even shared by yogis, the most recent one being Sadhguru, that souls enter the womb at different times. Not all souls stay for the same time in the womb. More advanced souls enter later on in the womb. Normal people start entering after 48 days of conception.

And to go even further, the Sikh Saints/Brahmgyanis mention that when an avtar happens,  the soul/shakti enters the body once it is delivered from the mothers body.

Brahmgyanis & Gurus who come to this earth do not enter the womb at all, in very literal terms.   Maybe your intellect cannot handle it at this time, no offense ;). Gurbani is very deep.
 

[Ragmaala]

These are not my views but teachings of the great Mahapurush in Sikh Panth.  I would rather place faith in their Bachans rather than my own limited intellect or understanding. 

[BhagatSingh]

@Ragmaala

I have seen the video by Sadhguru and I don't think you understood him.

As for the Sikh brahmgyanis, I don't know what those Brahmgyanis were talking about because you still haven't put up the relevant quotes from them, as I asked for in the previous thread.

But I'll tell you what I think.

I believe that what you are calling the soul or what I call the spirit of the body is the guiding process for the creation of the body. The spirit is the information field which causes the material in the fetus to organize itself. It is due to this field that the processes read certain parts of the DNA in order to create the protein necessary to build the body.

In the video below, you can see how the iron filings organize themselves when placed under a magentic field. Similarly the body is organized by the information field, which is known as the spirit or Atma.

So it is present in the womb right from the start and it organizes matter into a body.

Does a spirit enter into a body?

This spirit is not something that enters into the body or the womb. It is there from the start. It develops a sense of self at some point, it starts to become conscious, and sure that might happen after 48 days or 90 days or after birth. But that information field is there right from the start and it is the guiding force of creation of the body and of creation itself - ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ

In case of an avtaar, an incarnation of Hari, the greater information field organizes a body for its purpose. It recognizes itself (ਅਹੰ) as the greater information field (ਅਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰ ਆਸ੍ਮਤਿ), it is aware of itself as the awareness in all beings (ਸੋਹੰ). An avtaar is the spirit of the universe (a collective spirit) organizing a body for its purpose, as opposed to any individual smaller spirit organizing a body.

 

 

[Ragmaala]

@BhagatSingh    I have put the transcript of Bachans of Baba Ishar Singh Ji & Baba Nand Singh Ji on another thread. It is very clear.

Regarding the intercourse, bachans are also very clear, i will put them up once I come across it.  Even though I dont feel the need to do so. Not like it makes any difference.

You are trying to make sense of things through your logic, through the information that you have gained. There is nothing wrong with that. Just keep in mind that there are other explanations or other science that is not yet into your experience but has come into the experience of great saints.

I have no doubts that you have had some spiritual experience or way more intuitive & knowledgeable than me. But I am sure your understanding comes no where close to the understanding of Great Brahmgyani Mahapurush like Baba Nand Singh Ji & Baba Ishar Singh Ji.

I am not trying to belittle you or criticise...but just acknowledge that your understanding or knowledge is still limited ;)

 

[GurpreetKaur]

But laws are not really set on stone. There is always one person out there who breaks them and we get to know something called "Miracle" to build and increase our faith. Few examples I can think on top of my monkey mind : Virgin Mary, people dying and coming back ( NDE people), suffering from massive injury but still surprising the doctors with healing, breatherians, kid coming back to life just to drink Water, woman falling from an airplane but still survived and so many others  . Under the hypnosis you can see people breaking the Laws. Lucky ji is breaking laws too so I really don't know how "universal" are universal laws to be honest . 

Women can still conceive Without being touched by a man (intrauterine insemination). So if technology can do that why our ancestors (who had the ability to bend time and ability to see what modern scientist still can't see) Can't do that. 

 

 

[CuriousSeeker]

Will post this as many people are familiar with the suleman pret adhaar by sant isher singh ji maharaj.   Suleman did not enter the womb of his place of birth until the day before his physical birth, many people do not know. He would enter and leave the boy possessed and talk to sangat, that's where all the recordings are from.

 

 Also Sant Maharaj ji had given bachan to the family on the date of birth for Suleman, and that was 10 and half months from date of pregnancy.  The doctors want to do a c section, however  the family had faith in their bachans and the child (suleman) was born as per their bachan.  

 

[Ragmaala]

@CuriousSeeker   Why do you think Suleman did not want to stay in the womb ?

 

@BhagatSingh  How do you explain the above anecdotal story ?

[CuriousSeeker]

 

26 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

@CuriousSeeker   Why do you think Suleman did not want to stay in the womb ?

 

@BhagatSingh  How do you explain the above anecdotal story ?

He used to say it was painful for him.

[Lucky]

Has anyone heard or read somewhere that Guru Tegh Bahadur ji sometimes referred to Guru Gobind Rai as "naadi puttar" ?

 

[Lucky]

23 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

@Lucky
To go beyond the five elements doesn't mean you abandon them and go into lala land where you are made of fairy dust.

The reality of life, the laws set up by Hari will still remain even after you transcend them.

I feel you're going a little narrow with views instead of being more open minded. To be able to abandon maya and it's constituents at will, is the path to the real Satch, not lala land.

 Here's a little food for thought; Guru Nanak ji's handprint at panja sahib, The rotation of Mecca, the disappearance of his body and Guru Gobind Singh ji's after death, make sense to me as their capabilities for having complete mastery of 5 tats and the capacity to merge/ dissolve their own 5 tats in the elements around them.

The list of events where physical, biological and what we call universal laws, have been broken, goes on.... Baba Deep SIngh ji was able to have complete control because his one-pointed attention was so strong, that even after physiological functions would have collapsed, he was still able to continue. On this note, and with same kind of strong focus, Maresyev- a Russian WWII fighter crawled back to his turf for 18 days in the snow, after his legs had been blown off and mangled. There are many other war stories of where Men had put their minds in such strong one-pointed focus and had achieved the near impossible. Lachmann the gurkha, fought off 200 Japs with only one arm, after losing his other... That's 200 getting slayed with a single arm.

23 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

The reality of life, the laws set up by Hari will still remain even after you transcend them

The laws that we know as set up, are what we deem as the reality. The reality, is the doer behind the veil that does everything his way...the Truth. The laws that we perceive as the reality set up, are not the real Truth. I'm sure you understand that his same hukam behind the laws, can also move mountains at will and throw rain to the deserts that wish for it.

 

23 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

You will die if you get run over by a truck. You will get fat if you eat too much food. You will become tired if you exercise too much. You will get injured if someone slashes you with a knife.

What if you don't? ... Many people, including myself,  have miraculously beaten the odds where high chances of non-survival were predicted. Countless numbers of incurable cancer survivors have had tumors completely disappear through faith, prayer and focus. Many kung fu and chi gong master can tolerate incredible amounts of physical infliction.

Too often, we underestimate the power of mind over matter.

 

I may have been slightly misunderstood above as trying to stick with a complete non-sexual conception, but I'm actually trying to be open-minded to say that it could be possible. ..............Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But the fact is that we probably wouldn't understand it due to the "sexual activity" we understand.  It would be something beyond our comprehension. They say that the most heightened sukham  experience we know of is sexual orgasm. However, the one's that merge with Akaal Purakh, are lifted to much higher states of ecstasy. This goes way beyond any sensual pleasures we could possibly understand. Every possible act in normal life can become sacred, and the highly powered, enlightened, can go beyond the laws that may govern any exhibition of normal acts.

We shouldn't be in denial of actions that we may not understand.

 

[Lucky]

The article in OP is good and very close to my own understanding. However, the physical acts of reproduction as a necessity are not my belief and I feel too disrespectful and shamefaced to discuss it.

I do understand the power of deep meditation at the prayag(triveni), as Guru Tegh Bahadur ji was at the time.  It is quite difficult and I've been attempting it back and forth for quite some time now. 

I've barely touched the surface of this meditation but it has given me a very firm understanding that Baba Nand Singh ji and Baba Isher Singh had much better experiences and dwellings in this particular trikuti meditation. Some of you may be aware that I have never had any associations or ties with samparda/ jathas as such, but I realised the significance of  Nanaksar's Guru Nanak portrait after some of this intense meditation. This is the reason for my profile photo, that I have since used. 

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the full hemkunt explanation, but I do understand there are some internal peaks within our sukham sareer, that are very cooling.

I have a better idea with understanding the internal Amritsar, but the physical representations of both are significant in the manners they express the internal spiritual.

 

 

 

 

.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Lucky said:

The article in OP is good and very close to my own understanding. However, the physical acts of reproduction as a necessity are not my belief and I feel too disrespectful and shamefaced to discuss it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guru Nanak's father and mother seemed to be normal average people. They didn't seem to be very spiritual in the stories I heard. They delivered Guru Nanak to the world though. Wouldn't that contradict the article? What is your take on this Lucky? Regarding intercourse, I do agree with BhagatSingh. Personally I believe the Guru's did have a physical union with there spouse just like everyone else does to bring a soul into the world. It was done with a pure mind though. Physical union between two high avastha partners is a spiritual meeting as well and pushes both higher and closer to the Truth. There is nothing wrong with that. Or maybe they just snapped there fingers and it happened LOL! I believe Gurus experienced Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankaar before as well. I also believe they experienced being in the womb since it's written about in SGGS. That is the way they're able to teach us in gurbani because they've had these personal experiences before and overcame them to become enlightened. There is no difference between the Guru and a true Sikh. Everyone is the same and equal. We are all one. We are all from the same jot. The Gurus followed the same rules of the play as we do. Do you really think Guru Ji is going to bend the rules just so he doesn't have to have physical union with his wife? That sounds silly. The Gurus know this is a play and that maya the physical creation is god as well. Guru Ji has control of his mind he has no fear of maya or panj dhoot. Our Gurus have given us the easiest path where we can enjoy maya and get closer to sach. It's okay to enjoy things like food, sports and your significant other. You do want to conserve your sexual energy though and not be like a animal. High avastha people probably only have intercourse to bring a soul into this world. 5 dhoot are necessary to play this game. God enjoys this game of his and so should we. The 5 dhoot must be our servants though then we can enjoy maya or else they will torture us. I'm just stating my opinion. Great Rishis and Munis have failed. The path is much harder for them. I think a big reason is they become so anti-maya that they end up falling into Maya. The harder you try to get away from something the more it will pull you in. Maya is beautiful. It is only bad if we don't have control of the panj dhoot. Like Bhai Sewa Singh Ji Tarmala would say the mind is here to play and enjoy Gods physical creation maya as well. It is a fine balance. I just pray and do ardas to Vaheguru for his naam and continue to live a well-balanced life. I have faith everything will take care of itself. Below in Asa Di Vaar according to my thinking Guru Ji is showing the amazement he has beholding the beauty of Gods physical creation, Maya.     ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ (463-18)

salok mehlaa 1. 
Shalok, First Mehl: 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਦ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਵੇਦ ॥ (463-18)
vismaad naad vismaad vayd. 
Wonderful is the sound current of the Naad, wonderful is the knowledge of the Vedas. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਜੀਅ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਭੇਦ ॥ (463-19)
vismaad jee-a vismaad bhayd. 
Wonderful are the beings, wonderful are the species. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਰੂਪ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਰੰਗ ॥ (463-19)
vismaad roop vismaad rang. 
Wonderful are the forms, wonderful are the colors. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਨਾਗੇ ਿਫਰਿਹ ਜੰਤ ॥ (463-19)
vismaad naagay fireh jant. 
Wonderful are the beings who wander around naked. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਪਉਣੁ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ (464-1)
vismaad pa-un vismaad paanee. 
Wonderful is the wind, wonderful is the water. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਅਗਨੀ ਖੇਡਿਹ ਿਵਡਾਣੀ ॥ (464-1)
vismaad agnee khaydeh vidaanee. 
Wonderful is fire, which works wonders. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਖਾਣੀ ॥ (464-1)
vismaad Dhartee vismaad khaanee. 
Wonderful is the earth, wonderful the sources of creation.                                       ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਸਾਿਦ ਲਗਿਹ ਪਰਾਣੀ ॥ (464-2)
vismaad saad lageh paraanee. 
Wonderful are the tastes to which mortals are attached. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਿਵਜੋਗੁ ॥ (464-2)
vismaad sanjog vismaad vijog. 
Wonderful is union, and wonderful is separation. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਭੁਖ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਭੋਗੁ ॥ (464-2)
vismaad bhukh vismaad bhog. 
Wonderful is hunger, wonderful is satisfaction. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਿਸਫਿਤ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥ (464-3)
vismaad sifat vismaad saalaah. 
Wonderful is His Praise, wonderful is His adoration. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਉਝੜ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਰਾਹ ॥ (464-3)
vismaad ujharh vismaad raah. 
Wonderful is the wilderness, wonderful is the path. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਦੂਿਰ ॥ (464-3)
vismaad nayrhai vismaad door. 
Wonderful is closeness, wonderful is distance. 
ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਹਾਜਰਾ ਹਜੂਿਰ ॥ (464-4)
vismaad daykhai haajraa hajoor. 
How wonderful to behold the Lord, ever-present here. 
ਵੇਿਖ ਿਵਡਾਣੁ ਰਿਹਆ ਿਵਸਮਾਦੁ ॥ (464-4)
vaykh vidaan rahi-aa vismaad. 
Beholding His wonders, I am wonder-struck. 
ਨਾਨਕ ਬੁਝਣੁ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਿਗ ॥੧॥ (464-4)
naanak bujhan poorai bhaag. ||1|| 
O Nanak, those who understand this are blessed with perfect destiny. ||1||

[Ragmaala]

That mouth be burnt which says that Thakur comes into Jooni....

What I have learnt from the great sages is that it is disrespectful to say that Gurus had intercourse, came into jooni etc.  So I will continue to emphasize this again & again whenever I see this message posted. I feel it is my moral duty to respond, otherwise I don't usually post.  Its kind of like doing Guru Ninda in ignorance. Hopefully, you guys can expand your thinking than this.

I am surprised that some people think they are close to understandings of the great sages lol. Its hilarious.

 

@HappyDays   Bro, are you serious ? How can you say Guru experienced kaam krodh lobh moh ahankar... you have got to be kidding me. This is the first I have heard. Dont say things that you are not sure about, you dont want to be committing Nindya even in ignorance. Stay Humble!

I am just flabbergasted that people are trying to understand Guru through their limited understandings lol.  Ah well, I have done my moral duty, rest is upto you to think however you want. You have been warned...

That mouth be burnt which says that Thakur comes into Jooni....

 

[sukrit kaur]

Bhai Gur dass Ji:

Dhan Guru Nanak Tuhii "NIRANKAAR"!! 

Bhai nand lal ji:

Guru Nanak Aamad Narayan Saroop

Humaana Niranjan "NIRANKAAR" roop||

To be in womb means formation of a body,to attain form ,Manifestation of elements,development of senses(10) and its union with mind and soul..

Now some tell me how who is formless , is above the game of senses or mind can be a product of womb???

Never!!!

"Guru Sahib " himself is the creater of womb!! He himself is the creator of forms!! Then how can one say that he stayed there ?? 

NO WOMB IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE HAS THE POWER TO CARRY GURU SAHIB( NIRANKAAR HIMSELF)!!

Womb is considered as a punishment period by many saints.So our guru sahib ..NO NO!!!!

Never!!

And He can create the entire universe ..He is the supreme power..And he doesnt need any physical 5 element participated activity (sexual intercourse) to create a being!!

Stupid are those who are thinking like this about Guru Sahib!!

 

[Guest Sukhdev]

19 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

lol I have no problem in what people believe based on their understanding, intellect or experience etc.

but it is a clearly established fact even shared by yogis, the most recent one being Sadhguru, that souls enter the womb at different times. Not all souls stay for the same time in the womb. More advanced souls enter later on in the womb. Normal people start entering after 48 days of conception.

And to go even further, the Sikh Saints/Brahmgyanis mention that when an avtar happens,  the soul/shakti enters the body once it is delivered from the mothers body.

Brahmgyanis & Gurus who come to this earth do not enter the womb at all, in very literal terms.   Maybe your intellect cannot handle it at this time, no offense ;). Gurbani is very deep.
 

Is this another example of how women are inferior? Advanced souls enter later and our Gurus avoid the icky yucky lowly womb of a woman altogether. Sounds like someone is trying to equate the womb and women to a lower and inferior existence.  Meanwhile the lowest of souls are punished to spend the most time in the yucky icky lowly womb. Am I right? That means what you are saying is that the highest souls arrive by avoiding the woman altogether and entering after the baby leaves the mothers body. Can you not see what the implication of such nonsense is?

[Guest Sukhdev]

1 hour ago, sukrit kaur said:

Bhai Gur dass Ji:

Dhan Guru Nanak Tuhii "NIRANKAAR"!! 

Bhai nand lal ji:

Guru Nanak Aamad Narayan Saroop

Humaana Niranjan "NIRANKAAR" roop||

To be in womb means formation of a body,to attain form ,Manifestation of elements,development of senses(10) and its union with mind and soul..

Now some tell me how who is formless , is above the game of senses or mind can be a product of womb???

Never!!!

"Guru Sahib " himself is the creater of womb!! He himself is the creator of forms!! Then how can one say that he stayed there ?? 

 

Because this:

SGGSJ Page 325, Line 4
ਜੋਤਿ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੀ ਜੋਤੀ ॥
Joṯ kī jāṯ jāṯ kī joṯī.
The creation is born of the Light, and the Light is in the creation.

All of Creation manifests from the ONE. This means Creation IS essentially within and part of that ONE.  Which in turn means that the ONE is also within EVERYTHING.  The womb IS Waheguru, and Waheguru IS the womb. Waheguru IS the male AND the female. Waheguru is playing ALL the parts of ALL characters in this world. And also everything animate and inanimate in between!

SGGSJ Page 1020, Line 16
ਆਪੇ ਪਾਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰੀ ॥
आपे पासा आपे सारी ॥
Āpe pāsā āpe sārī.
You Yourself are the chess-board, and You Yourself are the chessman.

Please stop thinking of Waheguru as something separate from ourselves. The illusion is duality.

[BhagatSingh]

15 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

 

@BhagatSingh  How do you explain the above anecdotal story ?

my dear Ragmaala,

His soul never left the body. Spirit and matter are one, and united. When we have out of body experiences. It's not like we leave the body. To leave the body is death. The body will stop functioning and start to decompose. In out of body experience or what is called astral travel, there is perception of things out side of the body because the spirit extends out to infinity. So Suleman's consciousness expands outside of the womb and he can interact with people and things outside but he is also in the body.

If you do an out of body experience, to you it will seem as if you are outside the body, because you are perceiving things from the outside. Perception is always localized. In order to have perception the field of consciousness has to become localized -> called Locus of Consciousness.

In our body this locus exists at the eyes. And in meditation we can practice and move it around the body and even outside the body. Thus we'll feel as if we exist in the stomach or outside the body. However that is only the locus, our consciousness is as much inside the body as it is outside.

Spirit limits itself to a location and thus there is perception.

When spirit no longer limits itself then there is no perception. That is known as a Sunya Smadhi. You have withdrawn from perception and you exist as only spirit.

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

That mouth be burnt which says that Thakur comes into Jooni....

Don't just read one line and make that into a belief system.

Keep reading.

ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥  ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
May that mouth burn which says Prabhu takes birth, because he neither takes birth nor does he die.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥
Guru Arjun Dev ji says, my Prabhu permeates all things and all locations.

He is consciousness. Consciousness does not take birth, nor does it die. It simply is. It extends out to infinity, permeating all things.

That mind and body, which has perception, takes birth and dies, not the spirit, not he consciousness. That which I called the information field (which organizes the body)does not take birth nor die. It does not fit into that category of things which takes birth and dies.

We also have to understand that everything Guru Sahibs say is a pointer to spiritual awareness. He is pointing you to your own atma and saying look at it and see whether it can be born or whether it can die. Can your atma ever change? Does it ever get effected by any experience?

Now the above is what is relevant to this discussion. But here's the full translation of the shabad just for fun -

This shabad is actually talking about people who say Krishan ji has been born on the day of "Krishan janamashtami" and they celebrate his birth by bringing out a Shaligram and feeding it. Guru Arjun Dev ji is saying that Krishan ji does not take birth, and does not die. If you worship shaligram without this knowledge then you are not performing any worship, instead you are committing crimes. And there is no reason to forget to meditate on him on other days.

ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥ ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥
You throw away all other lunar days (when you could be worshipping Krishna), and you say that Krishna was born on this particular lunar day, on the Janam Ashtami.

(They pull out a shaligram and set it up and say "today Thakur was born")

ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
You are lost, you have forgotten and your talk is weak  and frail. Krishna does not take birth nor does he die.

ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥
After making Panjiri and you feed it to the Shaligram, you are a thief. Krishna does not take birth nor does he die, you filthy animal!

ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥
(Since you do not understand that he does not take birth ) when you sing lullabies to this Shaligram that is a crime for you. (This is not worship. You are swimming around in filth, in ignorance)

ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥
May that mouth burn which says Krishna takes birth.

ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥
He does not take birth, nor does he die, he does not come and go in reincarnation. Guru Arjun Dev ji says my master is permeating in all places.

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

That mouth be burnt which says that Thakur comes into Jooni....

What I have learnt from the great sages is that it is disrespectful to say that Gurus had intercourse, came into jooni etc.  So I will continue to emphasize this again & again whenever I see this message posted. I feel it is my moral duty to respond, otherwise I don't usually post.  Its kind of like doing Guru Ninda in ignorance. Hopefully, you guys can expand your thinking than this.

I am surprised that some people think they are close to understandings of the great sages lol. Its hilarious.

 

@HappyDays   Bro, are you serious ? How can you say Guru experienced kaam krodh lobh moh ahankar... you have got to be kidding me. This is the first I have heard. Dont say things that you are not sure about, you dont want to be committing Nindya even in ignorance. Stay Humble!

I am just flabbergasted that people are trying to understand Guru through their limited understandings lol.  Ah well, I have done my moral duty, rest is upto you to think however you want. You have been warned...

That mouth be burnt which says that Thakur comes into Jooni....

 

Like BhagatSingh just showed your thinking regarding that one line quote is flawed. I'm entitled to have my own opinion I never said it is a fact. I'm a person with a open mind. If you want to lock yourself into a certain thinking then you're free to. I'm not going to go hide my opinion just because it's not popular. The soul which is God never changes. We have to realize that we're the Truth. That is the journey I believe we are going on which is known as self-realization. We are here to realize we ourselves and everything else is God. There is nothing but God. The 5 elements are always changing. Every physical body takes birth and then dies. I see Gurus as souls who experienced many different lives as well. If they never went through dealing with panj dhoot then they could not relate to and understand us.  One of the most beautiful writings I have ever listened to is Bachittar Natak by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Many saints believe it is by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. I do know however some people don't think it's Guru Gobind Singhs' writing. I believe it was written for Khalsa and Guru Granth for the world. I suggest you listen to it with a open mind and try to understand. It's amazing how much this panth runs away when a sexual reference is made. It's like a bunch of little kids that have no self-control. God is in everything. Not just our Gurus. Everyone is equal. I'm not committing nindiya just stating my belief. Do you know what the ardas below is saying? Can you tell me what the ardas below is saying?

Pritham Bhagouti Simar Kai, Guru Naanak Layee Dhiyae
  

Angad Gur Te Amar Das, Raamdaasai Hoye Sahai 
 

Arjan Hargobind No Simrou Sri Har Rai
 

Sri HarKrishan Dhiyaa-eeai Jis Dhithi Sabh Dukh Jaye
 

Teg Bahadur Simareeai Ghar No Nidh Avai Dhai
 

Sabh Thai Ho-e Sahaai


Dasvaa Paatshaah Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sabh Thai Ho-e Sahaai 
 

[JasperS]

18 hours ago, GurpreetKaur said:

But laws are not really set on stone. There is always one person out there who breaks them and we get to know something called "Miracle" to build and increase our faith. Few examples I can think on top of my monkey mind : Virgin Mary, people dying and coming back ( NDE people), suffering from massive injury but still surprising the doctors with healing, breatherians, kid coming back to life just to drink Water, woman falling from an airplane but still survived and so many others  . Under the hypnosis you can see people breaking the Laws. Lucky ji is breaking laws too so I really don't know how "universal" are universal laws to be honest . 

Women can still conceive Without being touched by a man (intrauterine insemination). So if technology can do that why our ancestors (who had the ability to bend time and ability to see what modern scientist still can't see) Can't do that. 

 

 

The question is more why would they? The assumption I am getting here is that sex = bad. Therefore our Gurus would never have anything to do with this gross bass carnal thing. 

This is such wrong thinking.  Sexuality was created by Waheguru. Union between male / female is a beautiful thing when not misused. It's not intercourse that is disgusting. It's the misuse of it for purely physical gratification that is disgusting. It's warping the original meaning of sexuality which can be a highly spiritual act! I can't explain to you how, you have to arrive at that conclusion yourself. In fact, its one of the closest acts we can do under the correct pretence, that mimics the merging of our soul back with waheguru. There is a spiritual merging of energy between husband and wife when this occurs. Once you view intercourse in this way, it no longer seems disgusting, nor something that would have any reason for our Gurus to avoid. Its OUR minds which make sex into something disgusting only. 

So why would our Gurus avoid it? To suggest so, says that sex is inherently bad. All sex. And to suggest that Gurus never engaged in it, says that their wives did not actually share any marital relationship at all if it was purely platonic (why marry them then when they could just as easily have congregated with him as sisters / servants / companions)? It also suggests that since the Gurus had children, that those children were not biologically related to the Gurus. It takes two sets of DNA to create a child. Were the Gurus wives just treated as breeding stock?