Gurmat Havan of Sri Chandi jee

[paapiman]

The below is from Sri Mukat Marag Granth:

 

@Trimandeep Singh

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

@GurjantGnostic - The above passage talks about using meat and alcohol, as an offering to the fire to invoke the blessings of Sri Chandi jee. Have you come across this kind of stuff in any other warrior cultures?

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurjantGnostic]

50 minutes ago, paapiman said:

@GurjantGnostic - The above passage talks about using meat and alcohol, as an offering to the fire to invoke the blessings of Sri Chandi jee. Have you come across this kind of stuff in any other warrior cultures?

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Many cultures leave alcohol for spirits and ancestors. You will usually find a ceremonial small barrel of rice wine on the Tokonoma or Shomen of Aikido Dojos, any Kobudo Dojo and modern Dojos. As well as cemetary...altars..where ashes are interred or the person is comemorated having their ashes dispersed elsewhere. The Japanese avoid dividing ashes. 

Offerings of many kinds are common in Japan. 

Burnt offerings and offerings of many kinds are very common in Paleo Hebrew Jacobite practices, the practices of Indigenous people all over the planet. 

Sacrafices of animals before war are very common in many traditions to refamaliarize the warriors with bloodshed, and death, and to give their body a massive intake of protein and other nutrients to prepare them for battle.  Where they would see far more carnage and most likely have to rely on meat as a food source. 

In my opinion this is part of why Nihang Singhs are given the dispensation to perform Jhatka. Also their Chakarvarti lifestyle meant they would have to herd not farm. 

To say anyone truly understand the Gurmat that informs certain Gurmat practices is a reach, especially myself, but the Guru's gifts are always multifaceted, and those are at least two facets I can recognize. 

You would find this kind of practice all over asia, africa, australia, the islands and the americas. 

 

[paapiman]

@dalsingh101@chatanga1 and others:

 

Any historical references to meat and alcohol being used by Singhs during religious ceremonies?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

On 7/4/2021 at 11:51 AM, paapiman said:

above passage talks about using meat and alcohol, as an offering to the fire to invoke the blessings of Sri Chandi jee.

What is the authenticity of this Granth? Also, how can we even believe this? Using alcohol??? Dashmesh Pita has clearly said in Rehtanamey to NEVER ever even go near intoxicants. And here's offering alcohol while reading bani?! Waah! No Guru fearing Sikh will ever do this.

Trimandeep Singh 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Dashmesh Pita has clearly said in Rehtanamey to NEVER ever even go near intoxicants.

What about Sukha Maryada? Sukha is also an intoxicant.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

And here's offering alcohol while reading bani?!

Well, Gurbani is also read by Nihang Singhs, while doing Jhatka. Then, that Mahaparshaad is distributed to the Sangat. 

Alcohol is being offered (as an Ahuti) to the Agni Devta. The Granth does not state that we must drink it, after offering it to the Agni Devta.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Dashmesh Pita has clearly said in Rehtanamey to NEVER ever even go near intoxicants.

That injunction is probably for non-Nihang Singhs.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurjantGnostic]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

That injunction is probably for non-Nihang Singhs.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Sukha isn't a toxin. 

Scientifcally, medically, historically, experentially, factually. Chemically it's a semi essential vitamin. 

[Trimandeep Singh]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:24 PM, paapiman said:

What about Sukha Maryada? Sukha is also an intoxicant.

I don't want to comment on that. I'll never drink it but my respect for Nihang Singhs has always remained the same. I respect the opinions of those who drink Sukha. 

On 7/8/2021 at 12:28 PM, paapiman said:

Well, Gurbani is also read by Nihang Singhs, while doing Jhatka.

You are comparing Jhatka to Alcohol? 

On 7/8/2021 at 12:28 PM, paapiman said:

Alcohol is being offered (as an Ahuti) to the Agni Devta.

Why would a Sikh offer to Agni Devta??? Let me remind of your status... A Sikh who follows Rehat and does naam jap is higher than the Devte. All Brahmgyanis are higher than the devte.

I'll just tell you a real story not going into much details. You would probably have heard that Indra Devta is very insecure towards his throne, fearing he would lose his position. Gurmukhs say that when Sikhs do naam abhyaas, his throne shakes. Once Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji was doing naam jap with other jatha gurmukhs and they got a vision of Indra Devta scared and insecure seeing his throne shaking. They then told him that they were not after his throne so rest assured.

This tells us that gurmukhs are higher than any of the devte. We don't need to offer something to Agni Devta when we can communicate directly with the Sargun Saroop of Akal Purakh.

Trimandeep Singh 

[Trimandeep Singh]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:30 PM, paapiman said:

That injunction is probably for non-Nihang Singhs.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I don't think guru sahib gave some additional/different Rehat to different sampradas. 

If guru sahib ordered the Taksaal to read shudh bani and do abhyaas regularly, it was for Nihangs too. If guru sahib ordered Nihangs to practice shastar Vidya regularly,then it's hukam for Taksaal, Nirmale and Nanaksar too.

Every Sikh needs to become a Nihang.

I think you understand me and my opinions better now so let's just leave this.

Trimandeep Singh

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

You are comparing Jhatka to Alcohol? 

So, what's wrong with that?

Don't some Jathebandis believe that eating any form of meat is a Bajjar Kurehat, like drinking alcohol?

JFYI, from a Nihang perspective, drinking alcohol is not a Bajjar Kurehat. It is a Kurehat. Among the intoxicants, only consumption of tobacco in any form is a Bajjar Kurehat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

14 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

All Brahmgyanis are higher than the devte.

That's right, but not all Sikhs are higher than Devte.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Why would a Sikh offer to Agni Devta???

Based on your thinking, one might also argue that a Sikh must never ask for help from non-Sikhs. Do you believe in that?

Offerings are also made to poor/needy people man. Does that make those needy/poor people are higher than the donors?

The Granth is not advocating the worship of the Agni Devta.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

On 7/5/2021 at 2:33 AM, paapiman said:

@dalsingh101@chatanga1 and others:

 

Any historical references to meat and alcohol being used by Singhs during religious ceremonies?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I'm not aware of any. 

The only thing I know of is the havan of an ox in Bhangu's Panth Prakash. But I don't think they ate any part of the animal?

[dalsingh101]

On 7/8/2021 at 7:54 AM, paapiman said:

What about Sukha Maryada? Sukha is also an intoxicant.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

That's also if we view it with the western lens of being a 'drug'. It's obvious sukha had many applications in Indic culture outside of this i.e. nutrients, medical. 

[Trimandeep Singh]

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Based on your thinking, one might also argue that a Sikh must never ask for help from non-Sikhs. Do you believe in that?

Offerings are also made to poor/needy people man. Does that make those needy/poor people are higher than the donors?

The Granth is not advocating the worship of the Agni Devta.

What are you saying Bhai sahib? 

You were saying Havan includes offering to Agni Devta who already is a devta and has all the luxuries. Why does he need our offering? 

And you are just using the word 'offer' in a sentence to prove your point.

Gurbani always teaches us to help the needy and donating something or taking help from anyone doesn't increase or decrease our level/status, Vaheguru himself puts a furna in our minds to donate to a needy or whatsoever.

True Sikhs, they donate or take, will always think of themselves as charan dhoor of everyone else.

Yes, the Granth is not at all advocating worship of Agni Devta but my point is why do we even need to offer him to communicate our 'message' to Vaheguru when Vaheguru is always with us. 

Will you talk to Agni Devta or the sargun roop of Akaal Purakh himself (Sri Guru Granth Sahib)?

Trimandeep Singh 

[Arsh1469]

I trust Sant Ji on this. No Sikh should eat or drink any of this

[Arsh1469]

4 minutes ago, Arsh1469 said:

I trust Sant Ji on this. No Sikh should eat or drink any of this

This one passage and katha proves alcohol and meat should never be eaten. Also rituals to Devi Devta shouldn't be done.

Edit: Also this says those who do Sukha too will fall to the underworld. It is a matter of choice whether to go with Taksal and Bhindranwale Sant or Buddha Dal and Nihang order as a whole. I agree with Sant Bhindranwale because his katha had a huge impact on me and I find all he says to be true. Any historical fact he says is always true and  has lots of evidence for it.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Arsh1469

[Arsh1469]

5 minutes ago, Arsh1469 said:

This one passage and katha proves alcohol and meat should never be eaten. Also rituals to Devi Devta shouldn't be done.

Edit: Also this says those who do Sukha too will fall to the underworld. It is a matter of choice whether to go with Taksal and Bhindranwale Sant or Buddha Dal and Nihang order as a whole. I agree with Sant Bhindranwale because his katha had a huge impact on me and I find all he says to be true. Any historical fact he says is always true and  has lots of evidence for it.

I guess this is some evidence of Mahapurukhs contradicting each other as what Sant Ji says contradicts many Nihnag Sants and the order's rehat.

[GurjantGnostic]

1 hour ago, Arsh1469 said:

This one passage and katha proves alcohol and meat should never be eaten. Also rituals to Devi Devta shouldn't be done.

Edit: Also this says those who do Sukha too will fall to the underworld. It is a matter of choice whether to go with Taksal and Bhindranwale Sant or Buddha Dal and Nihang order as a whole. I agree with Sant Bhindranwale because his katha had a huge impact on me and I find all he says to be true. Any historical fact he says is always true and  has lots of evidence for it.

Quote the whole Pangti bro. It's in reference to specific people. 

[paapiman]

13 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

The only thing I know of is the havan of an ox in Bhangu's Panth Prakash. But I don't think they ate any part of the animal?

Just one ox was used or multiple ones?

Can you please post that extract here, if you get time?

Thanks a lot

@Trimandeep Singh - The above is another reference to Havan in our literature. IMHO, it is pretty clear now that Havans (according to the Gurmat Maryada) are a part of Sikh tradition.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

13 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

But I don't think they ate any part of the animal?

Bro, the meat is probably burnt (to ashes) in the fire of the Havan Kund. So, it cannot be eaten.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, Arsh1469 said:

I trust Sant Ji on this. No Sikh should eat or drink any of this

Bro, you are going off-topic.

This topic is about offerings of meat and alcohol (which are probably reduced to ashes) in the Havan Kund, not about consumption of meat and alcohol.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Arsh1469]

2 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, you are going off-topic.

This topic is about offerings of meat and alcohol (which are probably reduced to ashes) in the Havan Kund, not about consumption of meat and alcohol.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I agree. Back to the topic Guru Nanak preached not to make offering or rituals. We don't need Devi Devta to connect with the supreme. To connect we must look inside of us. Vahguru is in all us. No need for offerings.