akalbir Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 I have been studying Sikhism for about a year and a half and have finally come to the point where I feel ready for Amrit. However, after reading about the various Sampradayas and gurus in this forum, I'm having second thoughts. I had learned that the present Guru is SGGS as stated by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Now after reading about the different sampradayas, it seems that there are Gurus for different sampradayas and they are all considered Sikhs. Needless to say this is very confusing. I'm left wondering how to pick the right sampradaya or wether to just not take amrit and follow Sikhi the way Waheguru leads me to. Any advice is greatly appreciated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 congratulations on being ready for Amrit! :thumbsup: don't let these Sampardayas and other Gurus confuse you. SGGSJ is the one and only Guru. if anyone tries to tell you otherwise, [glow=red:852e8d6389]run as fast as you can in the other direction[/glow:852e8d6389]. i would suggest that you do a bit more research on where you'd like to take Amrit. i personally don't know where you'd go to do so, since i don't know much about the States. good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Dear akalbir it seems to me that your getting confused for the wrong reasons. I hope I will be able to clear up things. 1. The 10 Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib (Adi, Dasam and Sarabloh) and the Guru Panth (whose protector is the Akali Nihang Budha Dal) are the only authorities that can claim the title Satguru or simply Guru. 2. The Guru Panth is composed of the normal lay community and the four sampradayas or orders who were created to sustain the Guru Panth in its efforts to spread Sikhi. The lay community is composed of sahajdharis initiated through charan di pahul and the keshdharis who are initiated through Khande da amrit or kirpan da amrit. The four sampradayas are orders (in army terms special forces if you want). In some sampradayas the leaders and teachers are called gurdev but everyone is very well aware that they are NOT satguru like the 10 Gurus or Guru Granth Sahib. A gurdev is an instructor: that's it! The four sampradayas are the Udasi, Nirmala, Nihang and Sevapanthi. These four orders were created by the Gurus themselves. Other groups are called jatha: these were created by simple human beings for one purpose or another but have no authority in Panthic matters according to puratan standards. 3. If you wish to take amrit according to the puratan old Sikh traditions you don't necesseraly need to join any of the four sampradayas even though all Khalsa Sikhs are in theory under the military command of Budha Dal. You may chose to take amrit from Shri Sachkhand Hazur Sahib as its maryada has practically remained unchanged for centuries and it does not engage you to join any of the sampradayas as this is something you do if you are a scholar or wish to be a scholar etc... I hope this helps pyar nal shaka nyorai 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 2. The Guru Panth is composed of the normal lay community and the four sampradayas or orders who were created to sustain the Guru Panth in its efforts to spread Sikhi. The lay community is composed of sahajdharis initiated through charan di pahul and the keshdharis who are initiated through Khande da amrit or kirpan da amrit. The four sampradayas are orders (in army terms special forces if you want). In some sampradayas the leaders and teachers are called gurdev but everyone is very well aware that they are NOT satguru like the 10 Gurus or Guru Granth Sahib. A gurdev is an instructor: that's it! The four sampradayas are the Udasi, Nirmala, Nihang and Sevapanthi. These four orders were created by the Gurus themselves. Other groups are called jatha: these were created by simple human beings for one purpose or another but have no authority in Panthic matters according to puratan standards. 3. If you wish to take amrit according to the puratan old Sikh traditions you don't necesseraly need to join any of the four sampradayas even though all Khalsa Sikhs are in theory under the military command of Budha Dal. You may chose to take amrit from Shri Sachkhand Hazur Sahib as its maryada has practically remained unchanged for centuries and it does not engage you to join any of the sampradayas as this is something you do if you are a scholar or wish to be a scholar etc... I wish i can say same. But just look around how curropt people have become who represent these sampardha's. Udhasi- Curropt Mahants took over gurdwara's and start doing their own pratices. As a result they were kicked out. Since they dont beleive in Dasam Guroo Durbar and Sarbloh Guru Durbar. They have no authority over khalsa panthic issues. I m not saying... they are not sikhs. But they have no authority start doing their own pratices in khalsa panth takths. There is no doubt that they are very linked closely when it comes to panth di chardi-kalah because of their hard work (missionary(parchars), spreading naam/dhaan/ishnan). Nihangs- Very serious problem of caste discrimination (Majabhi Sikhs gettin amrit from different khanda batta than higher caste ones, not being qualified in Jathedar position of Budda dal), abusing bhang/ mahaprashad (eating in kfc, mcdonalds etc). Some nihangs within the dal even beleive that drinking alchohol is no problem. They say: Khalsa Nuo Sab Jahiaj Haie. Nirmalie- Nirmalie order itself divided into 24 upsampardha's with very different beleifs than orginal beleif that was created by satguroo gobind singh ji. There are some Niramlie who shave and dont beleif wearing kachera and other kakars. Seevapanthis- Dont really know much about them..so cant comment on their practices. My above post is about one opening their eyes and realizing that just because you beleive in lineages "does not mean" they are automatically puratan as guroo maharaj started. There are lot of new pratices and new sects within these sampardha which are conflict with Siri Guroo Granth Sahib teachings. Also one more question i would like to ask lalleshvari veer ji. There were "Sant Smagams held" back in puratan times to show unity in the panth "oneness" and solve issues within in the panth (ie- changing of mandals, ragmalla in sggs ji issue by negative elements of the panth). where all the sants mahapursh from different sampardha's used to come together to spread the oneness (Guru Khalsa Panth). I wanted to ask how comes there were no sant smagams held now. Obviously, things are not going good within the sampardha's as our beloved creator of shastar vidiya/sarbloh.info claim to be. There is a notion of "irka" between these people who represent the sampardha's. One event came in my mind where nirmalie were kicked out by nihang singhs in hazoor sahib because of their khul of kakars (ie- not wearing kachera/kara's/kirpan etc). (This was jot down by baba ganesh singh nirmala) If i remember the reference correctly given by one of my freind. Conclustion, lineages are good only if they are kept in orginal form. So far, these people who represent lineages have not convinced me the true form of khalsa due to their manmat practices. Also like to point out, if akalbir needs to have Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar di Sikhi then concentrate more on seeva of sadhu-sangat, and learn sikhi through sant/sadhu from any sampardha instead of gettin confuse from which sampardha one take amrit from.... because let me assure you- Sant mahapursh always will never teach you "irka" like us (Kalyugi Jeev's) towards other. No Sampardha have any manoply over sant/mahapursh. They are the roohoni jot of Guroo nanak dev nirankar. Best example i can think of sant baba harnaam SINGH bhuchowalie who was nirmala. Even though he was nirmala, he order his student (Sant baba nand singh ji) to spread Guru Nanak Diii Sikhi without intiating him into Nirmala Sampardha. Sant/mahapursh have better things to do than looking for scores in their sampardha because for them everything is Guru Maharaj. These lineages, jatha does not matter to them much. Also akalbir, Amrit is One doest matter if other says they are not. Amrit is one. It comes by blessing of Guroo Maharaj. No amrit is invalid. They are all valid as long bani's are recited. Thats what makes it amrit. Thats it for now...any spelling mistakes...appolgies..No Hard feelings!. It came from heart. I have been observing how people are losing the plot and concentrating more on lineages than doing "Naam" "Dhaan" "Ishanan". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akalbir Posted July 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 Thank you very much to all those that have replied so far. You have been a lot of help. From the last post by N30 Singh ji, I have taken that it doesn't matter where I take amrit. I should follow SGGS and learn from the various Sants no matter what sampradaya they com from. If I have understodd wrong please correct me. akalbir 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 Yes akalbir.... just follow siri guroo granth sahib ji, dasam granth sahib ji and take guidance/teachings of sggs ji from various saints, gyani, kathavachaks to understand our guroo better Wish you best luck 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhsingh Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 excellent post neo this is very true " just because you beleive in lineages "does not mean" they are automatically puratan as guroo maharaj started" listen, just follow gurujis bani!, but also listen to what the panth as a whole have agreed on, ie. akaal takhts hukamnaamas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh princess Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Good post Neoji. Akalbir don't let the personal views of anyone let you be diverted from the path of taking Amrit. Just approach the Guru Granth Sahib with humility and the Guru will guide you away from the narrow world of sampardhaya, gurudevs and 'lineages' to the gurmat gaddi rah. When you have the Guru as your guide what need have you of gurudevs or this dal or that dal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Yup, u wont even need us any more! wahoooooo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 This is not in response to Akalbir, but to the misunderstanding about the samprday in N30's post; I respect your opinions on such issues and have met Nirmalay who themselves feel frustrated by self-imposed definitions, however, for the sake of clarity on this issue, I wish to add a few corrections; The Udasis (no 'dh' in Udasi) do believe in Sarbloh Drabar and Dasam Darbar. According to one source Sarbloh Darbar was originally given to an Udasi in the deccan by Guru ji. The Udasis are, and always have been a very diverse order. The reaction to Singh Sabhia has pushed them both ways, some closer, most away. As for Nihangs and the use of alcohol, there are reasons behind this. I'm sure the Nihangs here can explain better than myself. I have to disagree with your information on the Nirmalay. On what grounds do you state they have strayed from what Guru ji wanted of them? There is certainly a difference upon emphasis on the Khalsa roop between upsamprda, but the vast majority are singularly keshdhari..I have only met two sehajdhari Nirmalay in my time. Historically, the original five were sent to Kashi before the birth of the Khalsa as such. There are differences between samprday who descend from Bhai Daya Singh and those who descend from Bhai Dharam Singh in terms of emphasis upon the khalsa roop. This is nothing new. Baba Nand Singh being a shish of Baba Harnam Singh, who was his gurdev, is regarded as a Nirmala. All who hold puratan values will wish to transcend all boundaries, while remaining faithful to their own traditions. For example, I would love to see all taking on timeless values of compassion, righteousness, truth, but I don't have to give up my traditions to reach that end! One more thing to bear in mind is that three of these four are ideally sadhu orders - in that they area attached to the world but to serve best, they remain virakat. Some nowadays are grishthi, but they are in the minority. The issue really is about understanding what Sikhi actually is, what our real history is, sustaining the vidya that is disappearing, following original traditions. This is at odds with modern reformed histories and identities which are new and are at times blatantly at odds with original traditions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 N30Singh, Udhasis, Seva panthis, Nirmalas and Nihangs ALL acknowledge Adi Guru Durbar, Dasam Guru Durbar and Sarbloh Guru Durbar. There are still associations within these sampardas. Regarding Udhasis, it is a well known fact that without them, there would BE no Khalsa. Their immense seva within the annals of Sikh history far outweighs the contribution of ANY modern Jatha, committee, etc. Their council has ALWAYS been sought (whenever possible) when Sarbat Khalsa is held, for Udhasis are known to be men of wisdom. Regarding Nihangs, the issue of caste is not a "serious problem" as N30Singh claims. It may be a "problem" for those who have been educated in modern mainstream Sikhism, or those attempting to divorce Sikhism from Punjabi Saviachaar. In addition, there are a WIDE variety of Nihangs that exist, and with them, a wide variety of rehits too. Newsflash...not all Nihangs are bibeki, and not all nihangs follow sarbloh rehit. This is a fairytale spread by people who lack information about Nihang Maryada and wish to propagate their own version of what Nihang Singh rehit entails. Unlike modern mainstream Sikhism that wants everyone to look, act, walk, talk, breath, eat and shit at the same time and in perfect synch, Sanatan Sikhi is diverse and allows for indidivuality and expression of character based upon one's own virtues. Alcohol, meat and cannabis are used by Nihangs, and are very much part of Nihang maryada - regardless of what modern Sikhs may think. This doesnt mean all Nihang Singhs are drug addicts, alchoholics and butchers. Inevitably, there are those who ABUSE the freedom given to them, but this is a minority. N30Singh, it may be wise for your own sake to stop jumping to conclusions and placing judgement on people based upon your principles without knowing the full facts. You may be a moderator on this discussion board, but it does not give you a license to spread bull$hit based on your own limited perception of historical facts and respective maryada of these sampardas. Lalleshvari.... "Sanatan Sikhi" is NOT "puratan". This would be considered this an blatent insult by many Sanatan Sikhs... By defining Sikhi as "puratan" implies that is it dependent on TIME. Sanatan by definition means that Sikhi is ETERNAL and represents the PUREST essence of Akal Purakh. If we are to use the term "Puratan" to define Sikhi, then we have immediately placed a LIMIT on what Sikhi represents. Puratan implies it is a creation dependent on TIME. As such, what is created in time, is destroyed by time. By using the term "puratan" you have LIMIT has been placed on the virtues of Akaal Purakh too. Indeed, your own Nirmala scholars have utilsied the term SANATAN in their numerous texts.... Puratan also has negative conotations as I am sure u are aware, and that term can be considered very derogatory too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Regarding Nihangs, the issue of caste is not a "serious problem" as N30Singh claims. It may be a "problem" for those who have been educated in modern mainstream Sikhism, or those attempting to divorce Sikhism from Punjabi Saviachaar. In addition, there are a WIDE variety of Nihangs that exist, and with them, a wide variety of rehits too. Newsflash...not all Nihangs are bibeki, and not all nihangs follow sarbloh rehit. This is a fairytale spread by people who lack information about Nihang Maryada and wish to propagate their own version of what Nihang Singh rehit entails. Unlike modern mainstream Sikhism that wants everyone to look, act, walk, talk, breath, eat and (admin-cut) at the same time and in perfect synch, Sanatan Sikhi is diverse and allows for indidivuality and expression of character based upon one's own virtues. Alcohol, meat and cannabis are used by Nihangs, and are very much part of Nihang maryada - regardless of what modern Sikhs may think. This doesnt mean all Nihang Singhs are drug addicts, alchoholics and butchers. Inevitably, there are those who ABUSE the freedom given to them, but this is a minority. Narsingha, if you think caste discrmination is not a big deal within nihang dals then thats your "own" version of sikhi not Puratan. Perhaps you may need to be re-born as low caste-(Majbhi Sikh) and get discrminated against of who you are. Then you will feel what they feel! I dont need to remind you that guroo maharaj himself in siri guroo granth sahib ji strictly prohibits caste distincation.... This man-mat practice in Nihang Dal is equalivent as hindu higher caste discrminating against dalits, outcaste. There might be extra flavours of beleifs (ie- sleeping with multiple women's, drinking alchohol and get high etc) within nihang dals but does that automatically meet standards of ad guroo granth, dasam guroo granth & sarbloh guroo granth??? I yet have to see quotes from sikh scriptures where drinking alchohol is all good in sikhi. Jathedar santa singh ji himself takes his jhooti off upon see any nihang high on alchohol on enough instances and beat the *** outta them and you are telling me its alright????? That shows your real crediblity of representation of Budda Dal. Lalleshvari.... "Sanatan Sikhi" is NOT "puratan". This would be considered this an blatent insult by many Sanatan Sikhs... By defining Sikhi as "puratan" implies that is it dependent on TIME. Sanatan by definition means that Sikhi is ETERNAL and represents the PUREST essence of Akal Purakh. If we are to use the term "Puratan" to define Sikhi, then we have immediately placed a LIMIT on what Sikhi represents. Puratan implies it is a creation dependent on TIME. As such, what is created in time, is destroyed by time. By using the term "puratan" you have LIMIT has been placed on the virtues of Akaal Purakh too. Indeed, your own Nirmala scholars have utilsied the term SANATAN in their numerous texts.... Puratan also has negative conotations as I am sure u are aware, and that term can be considered very derogatory too Narsingha there is no such thing as Snatan in sikhi ideology and in budda dal. May be its time you should stop bringin your family background beleifs into the sites that represent budda dal sites. Some of Nihang Singhs really laugh at the word "Sanatan". You should stop givin your opnions on sanatan and bring an audio or video updesh - Gurdev Jatherdar Santa Singh Ji of Budda Dal whether sikhi is sanatan sikhi or puratan sikhi because thats what it matters not your opnion's and not your gurdev opnion in U.K. Narsingha and some of the stuff in your sites you have done more damage to budda dal than any good. To recover that damage We will bring interview of Nihang Gurmant Singh Budda Dal who spent all his life in Budda Dal soon to represent all right representation of Budda Dal. So you better start saving your sites crediblity because "I Assure you" you will not have any! Ta Ta 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhsingh Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 excellent neo singh!!! i cant wait for the video !!! "Narsingha, if you think caste discrmination is not a big deal within nihang dals then thats your "own" version of sikhi not Puratan. " - neo exactly! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh princess Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Alcohol, meat and cannabis are used by Nihangs, and are very much part of Nihang maryada - regardless of what modern Sikhs may think. This doesnt mean all Nihang Singhs are drug addicts, alchoholics and butchers. Inevitably, there are those who ABUSE the freedom given to them, but this is a minority. He is the Giver of peace to the breath of life, the Giver of life to the soul; how can you forget Him, you ignorant person? You taste the weak, insipid wine, and you have gone insane. You have uselessly wasted this precious human life. ||1|| O man, such is the foolishness you practice. Guru Arjan Devji, Guru Granth Sahib page 1001 In my heart I cherish the Glories of the Lord, the Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause|| Even if wine is made from the water of the Ganges, O Saints, do not drink it. This wine, and any other polluted water which mixes with the Ganges, is not separate from it. ||1|| Bhagat Ravidass Ji Guru Granth Sahib page 1293 Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. Bhagat Kabirji Guru Granth Sahib page 1377 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 It appears that like your contemporaries, you chose to ignore the evidence presented on the Sanatan Sikh websites. If as you suggest there is "no such thing" as Sanatan Sikhi, please present EVIDENCE to the contrary...perhaps Bhagat Kabir and Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji, and countless Nihang, Nirmala, Udhasi, and Seva Panthi texts and authors are also 'wrong' in your opnion (or in the opinion of your latest source of knowledge - Nihang Gurmant Singh). If you have an issue about caste, please read up on Sikh history. Perhaps you wish to ask Nihang Gurmant Singh what happened at DamDama Sahib the weeks following the events of Anandpur Sahib in 1999(?)...assuming he is aware of Sikh history. If you do not agree with what is presented on the Sanatan Sikh websites, then by all means take it up with Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh ji - who advocates the current practices of the Amrit Sanchar of the Budha Dal with regards to caste. I assume Gurmant Singh is aware of Baba Santa Singh's authority and has himself taken amrit from the Budha Dal (as you claim). Are you suggesting that Nihang Gurmant Singh does not agree with Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh and the Budha Dal? With regards to alcohol, could you give me the exact date/ocation where you claim Baba Santa Singh is said to have beaten up a Nihang for consuming alcohol. This comes as a surprise to me as Baba Santa Singh himself has no issues with the use of alcohol when he did katha of Ratan Singh Bhangu's Prachin Panth Prakash that speaks of Nihangs consuming alcohol (sura). He even speaks of this in the translation he has done of Ratan Singh Bhangu's works... Sikh princess..thank you for the quotes but we ave gotten accustomed to individuals quoting out of context to suit their own perception. A valiant attempt nonetheless. Incidentally, Bhagat Kabir mentions the concept of "Sanatan"...does this mean you agree with this too seeing how you are so quick to quote his anti-fish stance? Rest assured, videos and audio clips are coming soon. The only reason they have not come up on the website is due to time constraints. However, I expect given your attitude towards Sanatan Sikhs, you will dismiss these forms of evidence too and chose to target myself personally...a truly pathetic state of affairs. I hope that Nihang Gurmant Singh is aware that his video will be put on the internet. As such, could you also ask him for the following information (...perhaps he has already given it): a) When did he take amrit from the Budha Dal What was his role within the Budha Dal (so we can have this confirmed) c) Is he aware of www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org and of the evidence presented there d) Is the aim of the video to present hiw personal views, or those of the Budha Dal. If they are those of the Budha Dal, what authority does he have to do so. For example, Nihang Niddar Singh is officially recognised as Jathedar of the Budha Dal in the UK and was given permission by Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh himself. e) Is the video a ploy by anti-Sanatan Sikhs to try pitching Nihang against Nihang...and is Nihang Gurmant Singh aware that www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org are made by Nihangs of the Budha Dal. Also, seeing that Nihang Gurmant SIngh is in Canada I am sure he has a telephone number where he can be contacted. Please be kind enough to pass this onto me (via PM) so I can call him and speak to him directly. I am sure he has no problems speaking to fellow Nihangs of the Budha Dal...unless he has something to hide. As a final point, the Sanatan Sikh websites have been made with the BLESSING of Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh ji himself....so your claim that we are misrepresenting the Budha Dal and spreading misinformation is as true as your desire to appear intelligent... In addition, try not to get personal and emotional, it only serves to highlight your own stupidity... Have a lovely evening... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 If you have an issue about caste, please read up on Sikh history. Perhaps you wish to ask Nihang Gurmant Singh what happened at DamDama Sahib the weeks following the events of Anandpur Sahib in 1999(?)...assuming he is aware of Sikh history. What happened in 1999? Why dont you nihal us with the stuff that happened. All i know...guroo's told us to rise from all this caste distincation and caste discrimation...thats all i care.. I dont need no jathedar to feed me "caste discrimation events" as puratan tradition or whatever. Obviously, in the nihang dals they(higher caste) wouldnt care how much seeva one has for the dal, prem one has towards sikhi and jathedar but blow their trumphet of caste bullocks to get Farla or Gaddi. Here is that thread by drawrof which neither you or your gurdev(Nihang Niddar Singh) could answer it. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3312 I was also told of an incident, recently, where a mazbhi sikh was given a farla and was then beaten because he didn't share that he was a mazbhi. Another thing that was mentioned by a prominent member of the buddha dal was that if a mazbhi were to touch his baata, then he would put it in fire to purify it. This is more than enough reason to feel sad for those lives who use sikh bana in disguise to destroy tenants of Sikhism. No wonder, you wouldnt need a rss force to destroy sikhi when you got negative elements within sikh community. This reminds of an sakhi of bhagat ravi das went to mandir where he went do pooja and was kicked out because of his low caste by bhramans. If you do not agree with what is presented on the Sanatan Sikh websites, then by all means take it up with Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh ji - who advocates the current practices of the Amrit Sanchar of the Budha Dal with regards to caste. I assume Gurmant Singh is aware of Baba Santa Singh's authority and has himself taken amrit from the Budha Dal (as you claim). I agree with some of things and i disagree with some of practices that nihangs of uk beleif ie- other amrit is invalid, cussing on shaheed singhs, consumption of alchohol, sleeping with any women except musli(prostitute), eating meat without maryada ie- at kfc, macdonalds and few more things. With regards to alcohol, could you give me the exact date/ocation where you claim Baba Santa Singh is said to have beaten up a Nihang for consuming alcohol. This comes as a surprise to me as Baba Santa Singh himself has no issues with the use of alcohol when he did katha of Ratan Singh Bhangu's Prachin Panth Prakash that speaks of Nihangs consuming alcohol (sura). He even speaks of this in the translation he has done of Ratan Singh Bhangu's works... I will get back to you regarding whom/when did jathedar santa singh beat up. As you know there are enuf na ngs out there in Punjab giving budda dal bad name which you discussed in your site under admin cut section... all because use and abuse of alchohol...root causes...! In the meantime, why dont you start off with the names of jathedars or farla dhari singhs who have consumed alcohol?? Rest assured, videos and audio clips are coming soon. The only reason they have not come up on the website is due to time constraints. However, I expect given your attitude towards Sanatan Sikhs, you will dismiss these forms of evidence too and chose to target myself personally...a truly pathetic state of affairs. Hey been waiting for long time now. As for your targetting yourself concerns one should know at some point you were ex-akj and have you own dodgy beleifs of soo called sanatan sikhi because of your family back ground. (I dont wish to cross boundaries of invasion of one privacy) so i ll stop at that!. This should be enough reason for other readers to know how you being using budda dal for your own personal gratifications. I hope that Nihang Gurmant Singh is aware that his video will be put on the internet. As such, could you also ask him for the following information (...perhaps he has already given it): a) When did he take amrit from the Budha Dal What was his role within the Budha Dal (so we can have this confirmed) c) Is he aware of www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org and of the evidence presented there d) Is the aim of the video to present hiw personal views, or those of the Budha Dal. If they are those of the Budha Dal, what authority does he have to do so. For example, Nihang Niddar Singh is officially recognised as Jathedar of the Budha Dal in the UK and was given permission by Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh himself. e) Is the video a ploy by anti-Sanatan Sikhs to try pitching Nihang against Nihang...and is Nihang Gurmant Singh aware that www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org are made by Nihangs of the Budha Dal. Also, seeing that Nihang Gurmant SIngh is in Canada I am sure he has a telephone number where he can be contacted. Please be kind enough to pass this onto me (via PM) so I can call him and speak to him directly. I am sure he has no problems speaking to fellow Nihangs of the Budha Dal...unless he has something to hide. I ll pm you tom evening with his phone number you can ask these questions yourself. In meantime, you can also contact your gurdev in uk. I m sure he knows about him. As a final point, the Sanatan Sikh websites have been made with the BLESSING of Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh ji himself....so your claim that we are misrepresenting the Budha Dal and spreading misinformation is as true as your desire to appear intelligent... In addition, try not to get personal and emotional, it only serves to highlight your own stupidity... Have a lovely evening Permission might be given by Jathedar santa singh ji but again its not like each and every line is exact his wording or your gurdev wording... lot of mirch-masala added by yourself to stir up hate for your own gratifications. I most congrulate you though to create this kinda hate chain-reaction between sikhs in U.K by two sites of yours. We will try as much as possible to bring unity! Take Care Purkha! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 N30Singh, I have a bit of time before I tuck into my ham sandwich (from Pret a Manger). So here goes... I await your PM Mr N30Singh....and we will take things from there. After seeing your childish behaviour here, you will understand why I chose to speak to Nihang Gurmant Singh directly. We have been through this before many times...first with the fanatics amongst the AKJ, then with those loose cannons affiliated with the "Taksal". Like them, you do not present any evidence, and choose to slander and insult (either myself or Nihang Niddar Singh, or Baba Santa Singh). Whats next...are you going to blame us for the AIDS epidemic in Punjab? Now Mr N30Singh takes the uncanny step of chosing to bring my family into this so-called discussion. Congratulations my dear boy. Remember, the next step is usually creating a website that mocks the Nihangs who people do not like...I hope your HTML skills are up to it! Such actions simply prove that like your peers, you will chose to resort to personal insults when all else fails. N30Singh, you are not the first, and you certainly will not be the last to chose such an avenue in order to please your own vindictive nature.....perhaps in a few weeks I will be receiving a death threat from you too or a brick through the window? One more addition to the BBQ I am building at the back... An old saying, "knowledge is only poison to the ignorant"....and from your reaction, it seems to have cause acute toxicity within your nervous tissue. Now you seek to replenish yourself by targeting me personally....if it pleases you, please continue...lets see how Sikhs of today behave when confronted with history and traditions they find unpalatable. Do you thinkl that by insulting me or targetting me you will prevent knowledge from coming out? You fail to realise that you have lost the respect of many people by acting in such a low manner..... Once again, you fail to forget that the Websites presents the views of Sanatan Sikhs (Nihangs, Udhasis, Nirmalas and Seva Panthis) and historical evidence. Perhaps you think I am Giani Gian Singh, Rattan Singh Bhangu, Bhai Desa, Singh, or the numerous other sources that have been cited? Trust me, if these websites were going against Nihang sentiments as you claim, I would not have come back alive from visitng the Budha Dal Vaheer as all the top Akali Nihang Singhs are aware of the websites....who do you think has been asked to upgrade www.budhadal.com??? I hope that dear Amrit Pal Singh will not receive similar treatment when he brings out the translation of "Hazoori Maryada Prabodh" in the future which will inevitably rattle a few cages.. Anyway, continue as you please... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Aside from your private messages to one another; i have to agree with neo. Im far from narrow minded, maybe its just ignorance..but some practises are just traditions which i beleive, personally, are taken out of context. They might have applied to singhs back in the day, but i dont see how it serves a purpose today. But then again, it is tradition i guess. At the end of the day, i think we should all focus on love..and loving god..everything else is just a bad habit drawing us back in maya. Doesnt make us a bad person..just hinders spiritual progression. But to an extent, we are all guilty, so pointing fingers to certain groups,etc is pointless, because "mainstream" sikhs have got alot of short comings too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 There are entire sections on the websites explaining why we are bringing out this information...please read them.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Hey been waiting for long time now. As for your targetting yourself concerns one should know at some point you were ex-akj and have you own dodgy beleifs of soo called sanatan sikhi because of your family back ground. (I dont wish to cross boundaries of invasion of one privacy) so i ll stop at that!. This should be enough reason for other readers to know how you being using budda dal for your own personal gratifications. Permission might be given by Jathedar santa singh ji but again its not like each and every line is exact his wording or your gurdev wording... lot of mirch-masala added by yourself to stir up hate for your own gratifications. I most congrulate you though to create this kinda hate chain-reaction between sikhs in U.K by two sites of yours. Narsingha, Ignore all that. I appolize. I must admit my anger went over control because somehow i really cant see this forum being used to promote alcohol, eating meat at kfc, sleeping other woman's its alright in Sikhi. Last thing I and whole panth want to see is one singh asking another singh -"Which brand of alcohol(daru) you use"?? Oh no. Don't use that. This brand is much better. This a pure kanjarkhana. Whats next?? Few Nihang Singhs use gurdwara to bring kanjaraiya's to have a belly dance and say thats also allowed in sikhi and back it up with the quote ... off course...This suitation will be quite similiar with masa-rangar attempted to do the same thing when Singhs chopped his head off! I be visiting chigwell this summer... I ll get few days to visit lesta akhara. I ll ask these questions directly if Nihang Niddar Singh allow me to do or if has time. I was wondering if you can answer my query to in my previous post: What happened in 1999? Why dont you nihal us with the stuff that happened. All i know...guroo's told us to rise from all this caste distincation and caste discrimation...thats all i care.. I dont need no jathedar to feed me "caste discrimation events" as puratan tradition or whatever. Obviously, in the nihang dals they(higher caste) wouldnt care how much seeva one has for the dal, prem one has towards sikhi and jathedar but blow their trumphet of caste admin-cut to get Farla or Gaddi. Here is that thread by drawrof which neither you or your gurdev(Nihang Niddar Singh) could answer it. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3312 This is more than enough reason to feel sad for those lives who use sikh bana in disguise to destroy tenants of Sikhism. No wonder, you wouldnt need a rss force to destroy sikhi when you got negative elements within sikh community. This reminds of an sakhi of bhagat ravi das went to mandir where he went do pooja and was kicked out because of his low caste by bhramans. In the meantime, why dont you start off with the names of jathedars or farla dhari singhs who have consumed alcohol?? I wil await for your replies. Oh btw You fail to realise that you have lost the respect of many people by acting in such a low manner..... I couldnt care less if people do my nindiya or upma. I care for respect in Dargah. You Should act same. Its much better than getting offended and punch a brick or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Pls send me Nihang Gurmant Singh's numder when you have it...and we'll take things from there. Nihang Niddar Singh doesnt mind anyone asking him questions on any topic...if anything, he welcomes discussion and debates...as long as there is mutual sharing of knowledge and not a grudge match. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 I am both very surprised and dissaponited by the behaviour of members of this forum who are in theory supposed to share a common love and devotion for Sikhi in its original form. It is indeed very easy to slander the puratan sampradayas. After all it is true that each one of them has internal problems that need to be resolved. Yet at the same time all institutions have. Our beloved Gurus created the four sampradayas for the well-being of the Panth and to be honest they haven't such a bad job. The Udasis have been able to bring the Sindhis into the Sikh fold, the Nirmalas were the teachers who gave free education to boys and girls when the ideal of free education was still just a dream in the minds of most Europeans, they planted the seeds of Sikhi in the hearts of hundreds of thousands, many of them died fighting against the ennemies of the Panth; the Sevapanthis and their constant concern for welfare and communal harmony were and still are a shining example of teh way of seva; as for the Nihangs if it wasn't for them none of us would be here discussing this issue. If it wasn't for them none of us would be here. The British had launched a campaign to wipe them out and yet they are still here: a living reminder of the chivalreque values of the Panth, a constant appeal to all of us to realise that this life is a battle and that as Khalsa our duty is to take part in it! The four sampradayas still do a lot of good and in fact they are growingly doing more for the Panth than any other Neo-Sikh organisation... It would be so easy to point out the finger at so-called "glorious" Panthic institutions and jathas and their shameless practise of corruption, rape, paedophilia and murder... it would be so easy to name them but I think we have better to do....in due time they shall be punished for their sins!!! The four sampradayas unlike the jathas are the legacy of our Gurus. It is our duty to keep them.The Budha Dal as caring mother for the Panth has been through huge sacrifices for the Panth but we just behave like ungrateful spoiled brats... Yes the sampradayas have problems but I have a question to ask you all: If your mother were ill would you leave her or try to heal her? I know my mother is ill but I also know how much she has done for me. I won't leave her: what about you? Regarding the use of puratan and sanatan, Narsingha has made a very valid point and I agree with him! 8) Sanatan despite the inherent problems of misinterpretations by a third part makes total sense!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakash Singh Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 N30 Singh where are you staying whilst in the uk? yeh ill see you at chigwell... but you wont see me :twisted: ... ha ha ha. i went to the Leicester Akhara yesterday, was wicked, pure unadulerated river of knowledge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Lalleshvari..killer post man..made me cry Totally agree with you 100% Gurfateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhsingh Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Lalleshvari..killer post man..made me cry Totally agree with you 100% Gurfateh ????/ he hasnt posted once this entire topic.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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