Questions about Sikhism and Caste

[Jagdip Singh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Jee Ke Fateh!

I had earlier asked these questions to another Sikh forum. They were unable to answer them. Hopefully this forum won't be the same way.

On the other forum I read many posts about how Sikhs should eliminate caste. I am very much against caste. I have a list of things that will explain why caste has not been rejected by Sikhs as well as other questions which are driving me and others away from Sikhism and closer to Christianity. Please don't hold it against me for asking such questions. I only want to hear some real answers. Please spare me the sakhi stories and other such mythology. :

1. Why did all 10 gurus only marry within their Khatri caste? An intercaste marriage by any of the Gurus would have encouraged more Sikhs to do so.

2. Why were all 10 gurus of the Khatri caste background ? 7 of the last 10 were direct descendents of the same Sodhi line of Khatris. What method was used to choose the next Guru ?

3. If the Gurus were truly messengers of God then why didn't they take their birth in a dalit's home ? A message of a holyman representing the dirt poor is more likely to get more support then the message of a holyman from a rich businessman background.

4. I support intercaste marriage because everyone is equal. On that same basis (Sikhism) I support Interreligious marriage too. Why are so many Sikhs against Interreligious marriage? What is their reason? Everyone is equal according to the Guru Granth Sahib. If it is for the fear of losing a Sikh to another religion then let me remind those Sikhs that in the Guru Granth Sahib it says that there is more than 1 path to God. Equality as talked about in the Guru Granth Sahib refers to equality of all mankind. Guru Granth Sahib's teachings on caste/creed/race equality do not apply to the Indian subcontinent alone.

5. Why do Sikhs continue to use their surnames or list their caste names as surnames when all Sikhs have been instructed to use just "Singh" and "Kaur" ?

6. Did Guru Nanak Sahib ever claim to be a messenger of God or in contact with God ? How do we know that what he said was true or not ? How do we know that he was not just reforming Hinduism by mixing in some islamic elements ?

7. What proof is there that what Guru Nanak Sahib preached was the word of God ? Was it merely blind faith of Indians who will believe in anything ?

8. If Guru Gobind Singh was truly a messenger of God then why would he cry and feel sad when the Sahibzadas were killed? His own message says to not get attached to worldly things. If he truly were a messenger of God he would have given his own life to save others in the same way Jesus Christ did much earlier.

9. Why has Sikhism not spread outside of Punjab and Punjabis ? Yes, there are some non-punjabis that convert. On the whole the overwhelming majority of Sikhs are Punjabi & most don't follow it. I have found Sikhism to be too ritualistic, rigid and unreal of a religion to live with in the year 2004.

10. Why is haircutting not allowed? Please give a proper reason.

11. Why is Kosher meat not allowed to be eaten by Sikhs? Again I want a proper answer.

12. Why is there no reference to Jesus Christ in Guru Granth Sahib ? If ever there was a prophet to have a legitimate claim to being a messenger of God it is Jesus Christ.

13. How can Guru Granth Sahib be regarded as the "word of God" when all of it's contents are just 1 big compilation of holy men with the same ideology ? There are some like Bhagat Kabir who has some of his baani in Guru Granth Sahib and the other half of his baani is not included.

14. Why is there so much importance placed on the Gurus themselves? They are not God. Sikhs all over the world have pictures of the Gurus & often worship those pictures.

15. What is the position of Sikhism on gays and gay marriage ?

16. What is the position of Sikhism on Abortion ?

17. If Sikhism is indeed not just another sect of Hinduism then why does the Dasam Granth in the words of Guru Gobind Singh claim it to be ?

18. Why are there gurdwaras which are only there for specific castes ? Shouldn't gurdwaras be open to all?

19. Why did Guru Gobind Singh (As stated in his own words in Dasam Granth) worship such Hindu gods like: Ram, Bhavani Devi, Sun God and demigod Inder ? This sounds very hypocritical. On the one hand his message is of One god and on the other he worships multiple incarnations of God .

20. If Sikhism truly believes that there is more than 1 path to God then why do Sikhs get upset at others who leave Sikhism for other religions out of their own free choice? It is simply a matter of choice.

If any of you have the answers please let me know.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Jee Ke Fateh!

[Raveender]

Jagdip..first of all...have u ever read any books on sikhism before u came up here and gave us your bold questions. Usually, id like to think that there are some educated questions brought up by the poster's here and it seems that ures has just been to get a quick list of answers without doing your homework first..

I cant be arsed with most of your questions becoz im very sure that if u actually stopped sitting around and moping and instead read thru the different topics on this forums or other sites, you'd have your answers. My response to no 5 is this...dont generalise, not everyone uses their caste names, there are some who do, some who dont..it doesnt make anyone less of a sikh or more of a sikh..you are a sikh because you choose to follow in the guruji's footsteps and emulate the way of life they have set out. It's not the absolute law but if u actually read thru them and think about it, everything that our dear gurujis said and preached make you into a more wholesome and better person, I dont recall ever reading anywhere that any of our gurujis asked any of their followers to do the wrong thing or something that didnt make sense.

To no 7, there are definining moments in the life of Guru Nanak Devji, very early on even, which showed him to be a spiritual and person immersed in thought, there are the events where he dissapeared and returned back from a river, mind my inability to explain the whole story to you but i think its better for you to go out there, read up on this and make your own educated decisions. Ifyou would like to find out more about any of our Guruji's, then im sure your well stocked local Gurduwara will have enuff info for you to read to your heart's content..and if for some reason it doesnt, then well..there's this thing called the internet where you could learn more than you could imagine on any given subject

A question id like to post back to you is...how do confirm to me thatthat Jesus Christ was a legitimate messenger of GOD? You werent exactly roaming the streets back in the day and thus its only thru what you have read and what Christians have said. I mean, honestly, do you actually think that any follower of any religion on this earth is gonna come out and say anything to make their religion look bad? no..didnt think so...at the end of the day...its all down to YOU..how you live your life while on this earth, how you treat other ppl..how you treat other creatures, how you go about your daily routines, thats whats important, because when you breathe your last breath, its gonna be just you and GOD, not the ppl who have their caste names, not the ppl who go to different types of Gurduwaras, not the ppl who who blow up planes, buildings,..just you..

Im sorry to anyone out there if I have insulted you, or said soemthing hurting, but you know...we live in this world once..we shld make sure that with this one chance, we can make a difference, to ourselves, to our community, to our family and we dont burden ourselves with petty arguments or ridiculous comments...

[Amrikingh]

"Around of applause for Raveender"

[khalsafateh]

WJKK WJKF,

Hi, I think I can answer some of your qus, but I don't think I have enough knowledge to answer all of them.

In answer to qu8, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not cry when he was told that his sons had been killed and this is what shockd all the sikhs around him who asked why he wasn't crying and he is said to have said that why should he cry for his 4 sons when he has thousands of other sons (his sikhs) to protect and look after. I don't know where you heard about him crying, but this is what I have read.

qu10 - We don't cut our hair because it is a living gift (since it grows) that we have been given by god, so we should look after it. I think that by cutting our hair we are throwing god's gift back in his face and saying we aren't thankful for what we've been given.

qu7 - what do u mean by "what proof"? Are you talking about miracles and stuff, of which there r plenty, coz if not, then what proof is there that Jesus preached the word of god??

qu9 - what do u find ritualistic and rigid about sikhism - u r not very clear on that - coz I've been a sikh for almost 10 yrs and I have found it to be one of the less ritualistic religions and there is much more freedom in sikhism than you may find in other religions.

qu11 - Sikhs aren't allowed to eat any meat at all, whether it's kosher or not.

qu12 - again you do not state what gives Jesus Christ a legitimate claim to being a messenger of god, and not our gurus.

qu14 - There is nothing saying that sikhs all over the world worship pictures of the gurus coz as my dad says have you seen/spoke ot all the sikhs in the world to get this idea? The guru jis themselves said that they shldn't be worshipped as idols. People have their pictures to respect them, but i can't speak for everyone.

qu18 - gdwaras are open to all. It may just be that "specific castes" attend them, but they would not throw anyone out because they aren't of that caste - besides sikhs don't believe in caste. I admit that different sects seem to have been created within sikhism, so it may not be so much specific castes, but more likely a specific sect attends certain gdwaras.

qu19 - I can't say if what I say is 100% correct, but Guru Gobind Singh Ji refered to god as Waheguru, Ram, Hari - basically saying that all religions have their own name for god, but in effect they are all talking about the same god, hence trying to show that there is only one god and he may have many names, but he remains the same.

qu20 - It is difficult to answer some of ur qus coz u write a lot of assumptions. As far as I know, Sikhs do not get "upset" when someone leaves sikhi of their own accord, as long as it is that and not force. One of the guru ji's said that if you are a sikh try to be the best sikh u can be, if you are a muslim try to be the best muslim you can be etc - basically whatever religion you are try to be the best.

I hope I have answered some of ur qus and I know that I am not an authority on sikhism coz there is still much for me to learn, and I hope you will forgive me if I have written anything out of turn or caused offence. I also hope you find the answers to all ur qus. On that note, I will say Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!

[Jagdip Singh]

Raveender instead of dodging questions and attacking Christianity please just answer all 20 questions. thanks in advance.

[Jagdip Singh]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!

2 things:

1. I am not a Christian yet. I am exploring Sikhism itself and other faiths too. So please lay off attacking other religions and just answer questions.

2. I am not here to attack Sikhism. I apologize if any of you percieve it to be that way. I am merely seeking answers.

n answer to qu8, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not cry when he was told that his sons had been killed and this is what shockd all the sikhs around him who asked why he wasn't crying and he is said to have said that why should he cry for his 4 sons when he has thousands of other sons (his sikhs) to protect and look after. I don't know where you heard about him crying, but this is what I have read.

Read the Zaffarnama. Examine the tone of the writing.

qu10 - We don't cut our hair because it is a living gift (since it grows) that we have been given by god, so we should look after it. I think that by cutting our hair we are throwing god's gift back in his face and saying we aren't thankful for what we've been given.

Why is the same not true for fingernails?

qu7 - what do u mean by "what proof"? Are you talking about miracles and stuff, of which there r plenty, coz if not, then what proof is there that Jesus preached the word of god??

Read the bible.

qu9 - what do u find ritualistic and rigid about sikhism - u r not very clear on that - coz I've been a sikh for almost 10 yrs and I have found it to be one of the less ritualistic religions and there is much more freedom in sikhism than you may find in other religions.

Keeping hair, kirpan, kachara, etc.

qu11 - Sikhs aren't allowed to eat any meat at all, whether it's kosher or not.

Really? then why did Akal takht take out a hukamnama in 1980 declaring it officially to be allowed?

qu12 - again you do not state what gives Jesus Christ a legitimate claim to being a messenger of god, and not our gurus.

read the bible

qu14 - There is nothing saying that sikhs all over the world worship pictures of the gurus coz as my dad says have you seen/spoke ot all the sikhs in the world to get this idea? The guru jis themselves said that they shldn't be worshipped as idols. People have their pictures to respect them, but i can't speak for everyone.

The SGGS itself is worshiped as an idol. I bow down before no one except God himself. Pictures, books, rocks and snakes cannot be real incarnations of God.

qu18 - gdwaras are open to all. It may just be that "specific castes" attend them, but they would not throw anyone out because they aren't of that caste - besides sikhs don't believe in caste. I admit that different sects seem to have been created within sikhism, so it may not be so much specific castes, but more likely a specific sect attends certain gdwaras.

Have you not heard of Lubana, Ramgharia, Nanaksaar gurdwaras?

qu19 - I can't say if what I say is 100% correct, but Guru Gobind Singh Ji refered to god as Waheguru, Ram, Hari - basically saying that all religions have their own name for god, but in effect they are all talking about the same god, hence trying to show that there is only one god and he may have many names, but he remains the same.

That is fine but why do Sikhs get so worked up when a Sikh leaves Sikhism and joins christianity out of choice?

qu20 - It is difficult to answer some of ur qus coz u write a lot of assumptions. As far as I know, Sikhs do not get "upset" when someone leaves sikhi of their own accord, as long as it is that and not force. One of the guru ji's said that if you are a sikh try to be the best sikh u can be, if you are a muslim try to be the best muslim you can be etc - basically whatever religion you are try to be the best.

Just read the "Anti-Sikhism" part of the forum. Read sikhnet or sikh-history.com. There are posts after posts slamming Christianity the religion just because some people chose to join it out of choice. Why does Sikhism not accept a person's right to choose his or her religion?

The biggest questions for me remain:

1. What is the exact need for keeping hair? If hair then why not fingernails?

2. Why did Gurus not marry outside of caste? They talked the talk but their actions indicate otherwise.

3. Why were females not allowed to take part in the Seva when the Saravar of Harmandhir sahib was being cleaned?

4. How can SGGS regarded as the word of God when all of its contents were selectively chosen from many different authors who existed in different time periods and were of the same ideology. It appears to be just 1 big compilation of like minded people's work.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!

[Jagdip Singh]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!

This is my response to Raveender:

My response to no 5 is this...dont generalise, not everyone uses their caste names, there are some who do, some who dont..it doesnt make anyone less of a sikh or more of a sikh..

Anyone that uses a surname different from Singh and Kaur and uses name like Dhillon, Gill, etc. is a casteist and following caste. That is another way to advertise one's caste.

I dont recall ever reading anywhere that any of our gurujis asked any of their followers to do the wrong thing or something that didnt make sense.

That is fine but I am not an advocate of blind faith.

To no 7, there are definining moments in the life of Guru Nanak Devji, very early on even, which showed him to be a spiritual and person immersed in thought, there are the events where he dissapeared and returned back from a river, mind my inability to explain the whole story to you but i think its better for you to go out there, read up on this and make your own educated decisions. Ifyou would like to find out more about any of our Guruji's, then im sure your well stocked local Gurduwara will have enuff info for you to read to your heart's content..and if for some reason it doesnt, then well..there's this thing called the internet where you could learn more than you could imagine on any given subject

How do we know that Guru Nanak wasn't just a mere reformer of Hinduism? He never claimed to start any new religion or to be any messenger of God.

A question id like to post back to you is...how do confirm to me thatthat Jesus Christ was a legitimate messenger of GOD?

Read the bible.

If all you can do is attack Christianity then we have nothing to talk about. It is a sad state of affairs when you have no other choice since you obviously can't answer questions on Sikhism. This is one reason why Sikhism is declining and Sikhs are looking at other options for religions. The days of blindfaith are over.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!

[Infernal Monk]

First of all Jagdip, I would just like to point out no one is attacking Christianity. All that has been said by anyone here is a reversal of your logic. You ask how do we know if Guru Nanak Dev ji was a messenger of god; the person then turned around and asked you how do we know Jesus Christ was a messenger of god. He was not trying to say that Jesus was not a messenger of God, he was just posing your own question to you. I don't see how it's attacking if it's being done to Christianity and not attacking when being done to Sikhism.

Also you said:

I dont recall ever reading anywhere that any of our gurujis asked any of their followers to do the wrong thing or something that didnt make sense.

That is fine but I am not an advocate of blind faith.

Well then how come you say

A question id like to post back to you is...how do confirm to me thatthat Jesus Christ was a legitimate messenger of GOD?

Read the bible.

Is this not similar? He said he had never read anywhere that guru's asked their followers to do wrong things, and you say you don't believe in blind faith. However after that in response to his question about Jesus' claim as messenger of god, you said read the bible. Don't you see how that can be taken as blind faith.

I just want to say this one final thing. All that I have said in this post has not been to disparage Christianity or make Sikhsim look better. I'm merely trying to make Jagdip see things in a more objective manner. You seem to have a bias towards Christianity, which is fine, but then your whole post is almost useless because I'm assuming you asked these questions to learn about Sikhism. If you have already formed an opinion you won't see the answers in an objective light.

If all you can do is attack Christianity then we have nothing to talk about. It is a sad state of affairs when you have no other choice since you obviously can't answer questions on Sikhism. This is one reason why Sikhism is declining and Sikhs are looking at other options for religions. The days of blindfaith are over.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!

No one is attacking Christianity, all of the earlier posts were trying to answer your questions or even raise questions about your questions so as to make it a bit more objective.

[Guest]

Jagdip Singh,

I m going to answer your questions to my best knowledge.

1. Why did all 10 gurus only marry within their Khatri caste? An

intercaste marriage by any of the Gurus would have encouraged more

Sikhs to do so.

For what i have understood. Guru's were born in Indian sub

culture....so their parents were influenced by indian culture which is quite common

those days even these days. I think all guroo maharaj marriages were

arranged by their parents.

2. Why were all 10 gurus of the Khatri caste background ? 7 of

the last 10 were direct descendents of the same Sodhi line of Khatris.

What method was used to choose the next Guru ?

May be an conincidence....whats with net picking on these points...did

u actually focused on sakhiya of Guru Maharaj...how the successcors

were chosen...All the guroo's in the sikh history were put in very harsh

tests before getting gurships.

To read more about all the ten master lifes..you should have a look at

this link:

http://www.jargsahib.com/sikhgurusahib.html

Click on the picture to read more about them.

3. If the Gurus were truly messengers of God then why didn't

they take their birth in a dalit's home ? A message of a holyman

representing the dirt poor is more likely to get more support then the message

of a holyman from a rich businessman background.

Bhagat Ravidas Maharaj/Bhagat Namdev was born in very low caste family

but their shabads are in Siri Guru Granth sahib ji. Guru Maharaj

himself took their shabad and put them (Guru Granth sahib) which is jot of 10

Guru's manifisted in the divine holy book. Guru Maharaj never

discrminated against anyone.

4. I support intercaste marriage because everyone is equal. On

that same basis (Sikhism) I support Interreligious marriage too. Why are

so many Sikhs against Interreligious marriage? What is their reason?

Everyone is equal according to the Guru Granth Sahib. If it is for the

fear of losing a Sikh to another religion then let me remind those Sikhs

that in the Guru Granth Sahib it says that there is more than 1 path to

God. Equality as talked about in the Guru Granth Sahib refers to

equality of all mankind. Guru Granth Sahib's teachings on caste/creed/race

equality do not apply to the Indian subcontinent alone.

Actually if you look at white sikh converts (3ho sikh jatha). You will

see they happily do interreligious marriages. But what ends up

happening is due to lack of tolerance or acceptance from either side...now you

can do your research and compare who has more tolerance sikhism or

christianity...please use scriptures as your true reference...anything else

won't be credible..

So ,they end up getting divorced. Rare people are those who actually

work things out between them and being faithful to each other faiths

respectively without converting one another.

5. Why do Sikhs continue to use their surnames or list their

caste names as surnames when all Sikhs have been instructed to use just

"Singh" and "Kaur" ?

I think you generalising here...i agree some might promote casteism

even after coming into fold of khalsa of Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Also i

like to clear up one point of my personal. When i took amrit- I was

given Singh as my last name. Now thats change of name in all my indentity

cards. I don't want to go through hassle of changin my name in cards.

Why? I beleif just because i have last caste name doesnt make me

promoting casteism and besides it takes for forever to change names in forgein

countries.. All my freinds call me - Singh... its not like i tell them

no call me with my last name. I think its your intention what it

counts....

6. Did Guru Nanak Sahib ever claim to be a messenger of God or

in contact with God ? How do we know that what he said was true or not ?

How do we know that he was not just reforming Hinduism by mixing in

some islamic elements ?

Why would he claim? Why Nirankar(god himself in sargun saroop[human

form]) have to claim....if there is claim that i m Nirankar then there is

Ego. Nirankar doesnt have ego.

He did came contact with Nirankar(formless lord) when he disappered in

the river for few days. Where Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar was given updesh

"ikongkar satnam Kartar Purakh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal

Murat, Ajuni Sahiabang Gurparsad"

One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being

Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth,

Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~

7. What proof is there that what Guru Nanak Sahib preached was

the word of God ? Was it merely blind faith of Indians who will believe

in anything ?

You want proof?

Here is proof: All the sikh saints have followed the teachings of Guru

Nanak Sahib and show us those teaching in practical form.

If you want enough proof. Show me one line from Siri Guroo granth Sahib

where there is hatred towards christianity, islam, buddhist, hindus

etc?? That is big proof of tolerance and acceptance of other faiths.. does

christianity talks about loving un-jesus beleivers ?? now does it??

If you give me answer - read bible then i m done with this debate. I

can tell you the same.. go read siri guroo granth sahib ji before even

debating.

8. If Guru Gobind Singh was truly a messenger of God then why

would he cry and feel sad when the Sahibzadas were killed? His own

message says to not get attached to worldly things. If he truly were a

messenger of God he would have given his own life to save others in the same

way Jesus Christ did much earlier.

That is a misinformation. Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj never cried or

felt sad. He was happy of that fact the sahibzadas were shaheeds(matyr)

to save this humanity but didnt converted to islamic oppression.

Its really foolish of you to show me that jesus christ was more than

matyr than Guru Maharaj. I would say.. its a big slap on jesus christ

face when you compared two holy people and try to show us one was bigger

matyr than other... If you have understood matyrdom you wouldnt made

that foolish comment...i personally saw "passion of christ" .. i was

crying... it remind of guroo maharaj and singhs getting shaheeds because of

humanity. We say matyrs don't have any Dharam but you and your

materalistic world ridule jesus matyrdom to seek converts... shame on you mate.

9. Why has Sikhism not spread outside of Punjab and Punjabis ?

Yes, there are some non-punjabis that convert. On the whole the

overwhelming majority of Sikhs are Punjabi & most don't follow it. I have found

Sikhism to be too ritualistic, rigid and unreal of a religion to live

with in the year 2004.

Sikhi concentrates on quality not quantity. If they are missing the

gems so be it. Thats their karma. I m sure you heard of word "Karma".

Sikhi is way of life. We don't care about who is following the religion

and who's is not? Sikhi is strived for having saints and soldiers

rather having malech's who seek converts or create missionaries.

We say " If you are hindu be a good hindu, if you are muslim be a good

muslim" and stay in anand... what does christian missionaries do?? seek

converts...take advantage of people...pay them money, buy them food &

clothes to get converts...

We say "Nanak Naam Chardi-kala, terai Bhanie Sarbat da

Bhalla"

10. Why is haircutting not allowed? Please give a proper reason.

All the prophets including jesus had un-cut hair. Uncut Hair(Kesh) is a

tradition of Indian religions(dharma) to enhance spirituality and

besides we beleive in naturalism

I will answer rest of your questions from 11- 20 in my 2nd post. I m

going home from work.. I ll post them tonight

[Balbir Singh]

Satsriakal.

Jagdip Singh Ji!

Here are few words to each question raised by you.

1. Living with Hukam is accepting God's Will as it comes. Our Gurus agreed with God's Hukam and married the person who was chosen for them by the Supreme. They did not marry someone from a different caste to show the strength of their ego. They married a human being in whom God dwelled Himself.

We can ask anybody after his marriage. Why did he not marry anyone else?

2. One, who is spreading God's wisdom namely Simran, may transfer this responsibility to someone who can carry the seva on. He does this in accordance with God's Will.

It may be we people who are caring of caste. Perhaps we are not able to get rid of caste system up to now.

3. Every person takes birth on earth with same wisdom of God and same earthy combination of elements. The difference between a dalit and a businessman is the result of an injected and prejudiced system of the society. Our Gurus took birth in a family as God wanted them to be.

It looks like that your questions are in reality directed toward God. You have asked those to people on this forum. God answers directly to those whom He chooses. His grace can be recognized that way.

4. You started this question with "I support intercaste marriage because everyone is equal."

Where is God's Will in this statement? Once God's Will is recognized your question number four and many others will disappear.

5. Whenever on earth ego and ignorance increases, people's behavior changes. Using extensions with their names is one of the results of this. Only the true knowledge of Simran brings them again on the right path.

6. Where there is claim there is duality. Our Gurus never claimed.

Come to know the truth of Simran. You will be astonished how convinced our Gurus were.

Also, Truth is neither Hindu nor Muslim or a mixture of those. Our Gurus spread the wisdom of Truth and not Hinduism or Islam nor the mixture of those.

7. Did you ever ask anyone to prove the taste of water and its effects when you were thirsty?

Better come to know Truth and enjoy the ecstasy of human life.

8. God is in everyone. God acts in all. All actions are HIS Hukam. Once this Truth is realized, one does not bother what God does.

By the way how were you convinced that God does not cry? When God reveals fully, He gives the wisdom behind all His actions.

This is a different thing that Guru Gobind Singh Ji accepted the sacrifice of his sons as God's Will and did not cry.

9. I am also of the opinion that true Sikhi will spread when true wisdom of NAM or Simran will spread. Please do not be convinced that Sikhi is bad because many Sikhs do not know real Simran.

10. One, who starts living with God's Will, loose interests in cutting hair.

By cutting finger nails one becomes efficient and more creative by using hands. Mere by cutting hair head does not become better efficient and more creative.

God loves to enjoy the growth of the consciousness, its efficient use and its creative actions to merge into Truth.

Let this question be answered for always.

11. Our Gurus have nowhere recommended or rejected to eat any kind of meat. With Simran and growing consciousness of mind food habits change automatically.

Anyone can start Simran. He may be a vegetarian or a meat eater. Poor are those who stick to either way but miss Simran.

12. Our Gurus were talking to Hindus or Muslims.

One may find easily that their message was for all. They told that God is in all and everyone is born with the wisdom to realize Him.

I assure you that Simran works equally in a Christian also.

Also, I have not come to know one Christian who knows the original techniques to realize God.

After knowing Simran one forgets his caste and his worldly religion.

13. There is so much written about Truth. Only reading about 'Truth' does not lead one to Truth. This does not prove that all statements about 'Truth' are false.

Should we hesitate to accept it that we have not come to know the truth yet.

To you question number fourteen, fifteen and sixteen I would say that it is God's Will how a person lives his life. Or should God let us decide this?

17. Anybody can claim that Gurus and their message belong to them. It would help much after they come to know real Simran.

18. Gurudwara is for all. Please watch it carefully. Those are people living within walls who try to block the way for others to reach Guru and God. They have created prison of Maya around them.

Please do not be worried. Not one ignorant may stand against God's Will.

19. Guru Gobind Singh Ji has not worshiped Hindu Gods.

There is great wisdom behind names Ram, Bhagauti, Siva and other names. This wisdom is only transferred when one receives NAM. This wisdom leads to ONE God.

20. One cannot be misled anymore once Truth is revealed. Everything else is hypocrisy.

Can anyone convince you that there is darkness as Sun shines?

--------

My personal suggestion is this. Please do not seek truth in a discussion. Forums on Internet are to increase the thirst only.

Balbir Singh

[Mehtab Singh]

Amazing responses by Bhai Balbir Singh Jee and N30 veer.

1. Why did all 10 gurus only marry within their Khatri caste? An intercaste marriage by any of the Gurus would have encouraged more Sikhs to do so. This has been answered already, and beautifully.

2. Why were all 10 gurus of the Khatri caste background ? 7 of the last 10 were direct descendents of the same Sodhi line of Khatris. What method was used to choose the next Guru ?

Taken from : http://members.dancris.com/~sikh/chap05.html

Bibi Bhani, Guru's youngest daughter, used to attend her father. She used to fan him, draw water and work in the kitchen. One day the Guru was sitting on his couch (chauki) in deep meditation, when Bibi Bhani noticed that one leg of his couch had broken. Fearing that his meditation would be disturbed, she put her arm in place of the broken leg to support the couch. When the Guru opened his eyes, he found blood coming out of Bibi Bhani's arm. On inquiry Bibi explained that broken leg might have caused disturbance in his meditation and so she thought herself fortunate to serve Guru by substituting her arm for the broken leg of the couch. The Guru commented,"Whosoever does good work, shall reap the reward thereof." He invited her to ask for any favor. She humbly requested that the Guruship should remain in her family. It is believed that the Guru told Bibi Bhani that the Guruship was not a bed of roses and he warned her of the trouble and torture that the later Gurus would have to go through. Bibi Bhani agreed to embrace all those troubles, and again requested to grant her the wish that the Guruship would remain in her family. So far the Guruship was earned by obedience and devotion to the Guru. Here again Bibi Bhani earned it, for her family, with her devotion and sacrifice. The Guru granted her the wish and the Guruship thereafter remained in Bibi Bhani's family.

Mind you! It was earned, and not intended to be kept in the same family!

4. I support intercaste marriage because everyone is equal. On that same basis (Sikhism) I support Interreligious marriage too. Why are so many Sikhs against Interreligious marriage? What is their reason? Everyone is equal according to the Guru Granth Sahib. If it is for the fear of losing a Sikh to another religion then let me remind those Sikhs that in the Guru Granth Sahib it says that there is more than 1 path to God. Equality as talked about in the Guru Granth Sahib refers to equality of all mankind. Guru Granth Sahib's teachings on caste/creed/race equality do not apply to the Indian subcontinent alone.

See this : http://sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness/vie...light=52+hukams

38)Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahi daeni. Uos ghar daevni jithae Akal Purukh di sikhi ha, jo karzaai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaeki atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand to a clean shaven. Give her hand in a house where God's Sikhi exists, where the household is not in debt, is of a good nature, is disciplined and knowledgable.

It is Gurujee's hukam that Sikhs should intermarry!

5. Why do Sikhs continue to use their surnames or list their caste names as surnames when all Sikhs have been instructed to use just "Singh" and "Kaur" ? Already answered.

6. Did Guru Nanak Sahib ever claim to be a messenger of God or in contact with God ? How do we know that what he said was true or not ? How do we know that he was not just reforming Hinduism by mixing in some islamic elements ? Did you ever hear of the tuk "Jaisi meh aaye Khasam ki bani, taisda kari gyaan veh Lalo", meaning "As the Divine Word comes, so I speak it". Gurujee didn't make up His own theories. It was direct word of God.

7. What proof is there that what Guru Nanak Sahib preached was the word of God ? Was it merely blind faith of Indians who will believe in anything ? I just answered it.

8. If Guru Gobind Singh was truly a messenger of God then why would he cry and feel sad when the Sahibzadas were killed? His own message says to not get attached to worldly things. If he truly were a messenger of God he would have given his own life to save others in the same way Jesus Christ did much earlier. This also has been answered. And by the way, its one thing to give your life, and another to sacrifice your father, mother, kids, and beloved followers. Thats what Guru Gobind Singh did!

9. Why has Sikhism not spread outside of Punjab and Punjabis ? Yes, there are some non-punjabis that convert. On the whole the overwhelming majority of Sikhs are Punjabi & most don't follow it. I have found Sikhism to be too ritualistic, rigid and unreal of a religion to live with in the year 2004.

Check this out : http://www.searchsikhism.com/writers.html

Western Writers' thinking about Sikhism and Gurbani

1) Miss Pearl S. Buck, a noble laureate, while giving her comments on the English Translation of Guru Granth Sahib, wrote, "I have studied the scripture of great religions, but I do not find elsewhere the same power of appeal to the heart and mind as I find here in these volumes. They are compact in spite of their length and are a revelation of the vast reaches of the human heart varying from the most noble concept of God to the recognition and indeed the insistence upon the practical needs of the human body. There is something strangely modern about these scriptures and this puzzled me until I learned they are in fact comparatively modern, compiled as late as 16th century, when explorers were beginning to discover that the globe, upon which we all live, is a single entity divided only by arbitrary lines of our own making. Perhaps this sense of unity is the source of power I find in these volumes. They speak to the people of any religion or of none. They speak for the human heart and the searching mind."

2) H.L.Bradshaw, a well known professor, after thoroughly studying the philosophy of Sikhism observed that Sikhism is a universal world faith, a message for all men. This is amply demonstrated in the writings of the Gurus. Sikhs must cease to think of their faith as "just another good religion" and must begin to think in terms of Sikhism as being the religion for this new age. The religion preached by Guru Nanak is the faith of New Age. It completely supplants and fulfills all the former dispensations of older religions. Books must be written proving this. The other religions also contain the truth, but Sikhism contains the fullness of truth. Bradshaw also says that Guru Granth Sahib of all the world religions alone states that there are innumerable worlds and universes other than our own. The previous scriptures were all concerned only with this world and its spiritual counterpart. To imply that they spoke of other worlds as does the Guru Granth Sahib is to stretch their obvious meaning out of context. The Sikh religion is truly the answer to the problems of modern man. Archer very rightly commented that, "The religion of the Adi Granth is a universal and practical religion....Due to ancient prejudice of the Sikhs it could not spread in the world. The world today needs its message of peace and love."

3) Another writer Dorothy Field writes: Pure Sikhism is far above dependence on Hindu ritual and is capable of a distinct position as a world religion as long as Sikhs maintain their distinctive. The religion is also one which should appeal to the occidental mind. It is essentially a practical religion. If judges from the pragmatically standpoint - a favorite in some quarters - it would rank almost FIRST IN THE WORLD (Emphasis by the author). Of no other religion can it be said that it has made a nation in so short a time. Field further observed: The religion of Sikhs is one of the most interesting at present existing in India, possibly indeed in the whole world. A reading of the Granth strongly suggests that Sikhism should be regarded as a new and separate world religion rather than a reformed sect of Hinduism.

4) Arnold Toynbee, a historian who has done much work in comparing cultures writes: Mankind's religious future may be obscure, yet one thing can be foreseen. The living higher religions are going to influence each other more than ever before, in the days of increasing communications between all parts of the world and branches of the human race. In this coming religious debate, the Sikh religious debate, the Sikh religion and its scriptures, the Adi Granth, will have something special of value to say to the rest of the world. In other words, it is not only Sikhs who see that Sikhism unlike most other religions is a philosophy which has validity for all cultures but non-Sikh writers also endorse this view.

It will be interesting to know the comments of Dr.W.O.Cole, Chairman Consultant, Religious Education Projects, U.K. who has written half dozen books on Sikhism. In 1985, he visited India where communal disturbances had created a virtual turmoil and thousands of people had been killed. He gave a message to Punjabis (through them to the whole of humanity): Remember the tenets of Guru Nanak, his concepts of oneness of God and Universal Brotherhood of man. If any community holds the key to the national integration of India, it is the Sikhs all the way.

After a key note lecture by him on the "Mission and Message of Guru Nanak" he was asked what drew him to the study of Sikhism. He replied, "Theologically, I can not answer this question. You may call it the purpose of God. But to be more specific, the unique concept of Universality and the system of Langar (free community meal) in Sikhism are the two features that attracted me to the study of Sikhism. Langar is the exclusive feature of Sikhism and found nowhere else in the world. Sikhism is the only religion which welcomes each and everyone to the Langar without any discrimination of caste, creed, color or sex."

The opinion of some Hindu mystics also need to be quoted to know their experiences with Sikh faith. Swami Nitya Nand (expired at the age of 135 years) writes in his books "Gur Gian": I, in the company of my Guru, Brahma Nand Ji went to Mathra...while on pilgrimage tour, we reached Punjab and there "We met Swami Satya Nand Udasi. He explained the philosophy and religious practices of Nanak in such way that Swami Brahma Nand Ji enjoyed a mystic lore. During the visit to Golden Temple, Amritsar, his soul was so much affected that he became a devotee of the Guru. After spending some time in the Punjab, he went to Hardwar. Though he was hail and hearty, one day I saw tears in his eyes. I asked the reason for that. He replied, I sifted sand the whole of my life. The truth was in the house of Guru Nanak. I will have to take one more birth in that house, only then will I attain Kalyan." After saying that the soul left his body.

Swami Nitya Nand also wrote of his own experience: I also constantly meditate on WaheGuru revealed by Guru Nanak. I practiced Yoga Asanas under the guidance of Yogis and did that for many years. The bliss and peace that I enjoy now had never been attained earlier.

Oh no! Its Christians appreciating Sikhism! What do we do now! Also to add to your info, a Christian once said "You Sikhs will all go to hell. Why? Because we Christians had only one Jesus Christ and we are out to convert the whole world. You have had thousands of Jesus Christs and yet you never brought about any awareness about your religion."

10. Why is haircutting not allowed? Please give a proper reason. Listen to katha by Gyani Sant Singh Jee Maskeen ar www.proudtobesikh.com , under the heading Gubani Vikhia Sahit on the right hand side. Its entitled Kakaar.

11. Why is Kosher meat not allowed to be eaten by Sikhs? Again I want a proper answer.People have their own views about meat and Sikhism. Those who believe that non-Halal meat is allowed, this is what they have to say : Muslims eat Halal meat. Guru Gobind Singh Jee wanted His Sikhs to not fear anyone but Waheguru, and so (they believe) it was told not to eat Halal meat as a sign of defiance to the Mughals.

12. Why is there no reference to Jesus Christ in Guru Granth Sahib ? If ever there was a prophet to have a legitimate claim to being a messenger of God it is Jesus Christ. We can say the same about Guru Sahibaans. But then again we are more accepting than a majority religion who claims heaven as their dad's property and condemns everyone else to hell. If that makes them happy, go ahead and dance to the Bhangra tunes you find!

baedh kathaebee bhaedh n jaathaa ||

The Vedas and the Bible do not know the mystery of God.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Maaroo

1021

What can the poor Vedas and Bibles do? People do not understand the One and Only Lord. ||6||

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Bhairao

1153

13. How can Guru Granth Sahib be regarded as the "word of God" when all of it's contents are just 1 big compilation of holy men with the same ideology ? There are some like Bhagat Kabir who has some of his baani in Guru Granth Sahib and the other half of his baani is not included.Guru Arjan Dev Jee while compiling Adi Granth rejected a few saints whose Bani was not in accordance with Gurbani. Only what was God's message was included. Why wasn't half of Kabir Jee's Bani included? That only Gurujee knows!

14. Why is there so much importance placed on the Gurus themselves? They are not God. Sikhs all over the world have pictures of the Gurus & often worship those pictures. Thats THEIR mistake. Gurujee never asked to be worshipped. Bachittar Natak explains everything about Gurujee. Before leaving this world, the Guru had ordained,"If any one erects a shrine in my honor, his offspring shall perish."

16. What is the position of Sikhism on Abortion ? Strictly forbidden!

18. Why are there gurdwaras which are only there for specific castes ? Shouldn't gurdwaras be open to all? Again, you are blaming the mistake of a few people on the entire religion!

19. Why did Guru Gobind Singh (As stated in his own words in Dasam Granth) worship such Hindu gods like: Ram, Bhavani Devi, Sun God and demigod Inder ? This sounds very hypocritical. On the one hand his message is of One god and on the other he worships multiple incarnations of God .

"I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh, Krishna Avatar)

20. If Sikhism truly believes that there is more than 1 path to God then why do Sikhs get upset at others who leave Sikhism for other religions out of their own free choice? It is simply a matter of choice. Who is asking you to NOT leave? Go ahead! And for the rest of your life, condemn those who don't follow your way of religion. For the rest of your life, feel free to SELL your beliefs to others like what most are doing already. For the rest of your life, sin 7 days a week and confess every Sunday (like thats gonna wash em off...lol).

Here is more knowledge for you : http://www.sikhs.org/relig_se.htm

Salvation for the 'choosen people'. Sikhism believes anyone can achieve salvation irrespective of the religion that they follow if they endear God in their heart and daily actions.

Christian concept of Jesus as son of God. Sikhism regards all as the children of God.

Infant baptism. In Sikhism child baptism into the Khalsa brotherhood is discouraged. One should only become a Khalsa when they are able to fully understand the duties and responsibilities.

Special Day for worship. There is no special day like Sunday or Sabbath for worship.

Heaven and Hell as physical entities. In Sikhism there are no such physical places. Hell is equivalent to the cycles of births and deaths and heaven is equivalent to the soul merging with God. (ps : this is just the webmaster's view. Gurbani doesn't tell fairy tales about heaven/hell. Bhai Randheer Singh has said clearly in Undithi Duniya that heaven/hell are very much real)

Priests. Guru Gobind Singh abolished the priestly class making Sikhism free from their weaknesses and egos, the only priest is the Living Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib which contains all the knowledge and which is available for reading by any Sikh.

I have a lot of respect for Jesus Christ. I also recently watched Passion of the Christ and started respecting him even more. But it made me wonder, that our Gurus and shaheeds faced million times more pain, yet didn't utter a sound in grief. Jesus did say at one point "Oh Lord why have You forsaken me!" And what did Guru Arjan Dev Jee say? "Tera keeya meetha laage, Har Naam padarth Nanak maangey". "Your Will seems so sweet. Nanak begs for the gift of your name."

[Raveender]

Sat Sri Akal Jagdip,

since you are hell bent in your beliefs that Sikhism is so flawed for your liking, ill do the best I can, please let me say that what im saying is purely my own thought and based on my understandings..also, let me apologize to you and to anyone there who felt insulted with my supposed attack on Christianity, that wasnt my intention.

I am a Sikh, and I belief very much in my religion as i have been a follower of it for my whole life and I have never been lead astray. When you go to a gurduwara, the gianniji is the person who preaches, and he interprets what the Guru Granth Sahibji is saying. For me, the gianiji is there to guide us, but it is always up to us to do our own reading, understand and make our own educated decisions. The situation that the Gurujis lived in all those years back, the environments, the socio economic scene, is very much different to what you and I are used to at the moment, however, i find it amazing that whatever was preached back in the day is still valid until today, if you can interpret the meaning and messages embedded in our Granth Sahib ji and evolve it to the situations of today.

Ok lets look at your questions and see if we can get you some of the answers...

2. There was no absolute method used to choose the next Guru, throughout each of our Guruji's lives, they met many of their followers, some were more spiritual than others and who displayed traits that would help Sikhism at that point to progress further. This are individuals who were not worried about materialistic belongings, but had a common,true and sincere love for the Gurujis and wanted to go about and do their sewa to mankind just as the Gurujis before them had.

3.Im sorry, i felt this question was just an assumption you were making, there is no written rule that a holy person should be born in a poor house or rich house. It really doesnt make any difference. its not the house you are born in, its you..Guru Nanak ji was born to a family which was of a higher stature at the time, businessmen or civil servant, but Guru Nanakji had no interest in all that, from his young age his mind was not with possessing properties or goods but was to help mankind. Are you assuming that all rich people are bad and grow up to be cheats and all poor people good and grow up to start a religion and be highly enlightended? Id like to think that you have some control of your own life and that you decide your own future, dont base your assumptions blindly.

4. Yes there are people dead against it, but again there are people who dont have problems with it. Dont generalise and speak like as though you've gone around the world to make get this consensus. there are many paths to GOD. We all pray to the same GOD but we take different paths to him. I agree with your post that everyone is equal, but it seems that you always like to take what people think. You have your own mind, and you should be able to make your own decisions as to whom you want to marry or be with. More and more people I know have intercaste marriages, maybe its not happening in your part of the world but it is where i am from. The main thing is, the person you marry should make you happy and feel at peace, i mean you are going to be with him/her for the rest of your life, so you should be comfortable with him/her, how you decide to raise your children if you have an intereligious marriage, well that would be up to the individuals, should they be sikhs,,should they be hindus, christians, buddhist, or shld they have the best of both worlds. It all depends on the individual, dont ever be binded by what people you dont know are telling you, make your own choices because at the end of the day only you will answer for them, not them.

5. Why do they use their surnames, I dont know but i dont want to judge their whole personality based on that. Like i told you earlier, a Sikh is a Sikh no matter if he uses his caste name when he shouldnt but what matters is if the individual itself. How he lives his life, how he helps his fellow man without looking at caste, creed or color, those are the things that make a difference in this world and those are the things that all of us shld strive for. Helping, doing sewa with prayers in your mind,and heart doing something wholeheartedly and not expecting any gains in return, thats what matters

6. From some websites I have been to and books I have read, there was an incident when Guru Nanak Devji went to a stream for for his bath and it was there that Guruji got into a state of trance and was blessed by GOD and was asked to preach to mankind and rid it off the evils that was happening. Guruji appeared to the surface 3 days later and thus began his long journey to bring man back to the rightous path. My many apologies for not being able to back this up with names, Im hoping my fellow friends who read this forum can help substantiate this. How I can prove this, well I cant, but then i could turn back to you and say the same about Jesus Christ. My hope is, you have an open mind, if you need only facts and exact dates to help you understand Sikhism, then theres no point, the point is to learn about Sikhism and what it preaches and try your best to follow it. I dont recall having any islamic elements in Sikhism, my apologies, maybe you could explain what elements of Islam were brought in. All i can think of if any was there is only one GOD, but in Islam, whoever is not a Muslim is an infidel and should be converted. So again, what elements of Islam were brought in?

7. Again, another question which is hard to understand not because we dont understand Sikhism but because the answer you seek would be based on assumptions. The banis, the Guru Granth Sahib ji, all have teachings of what Guruji preached, read it, absorb it, answer your own question

9. Being the youngest of the major religions in the world, it has spread across the world, you could go to most countries and find Sikhs or a Gurduwara. Guru Nanakji also travelled to many destinations during his time. Im sorry you have found Sikhism too rigid for your liking. I dont and im living just fine in the year 2004. I know many others who agree with me.

12. With all due respect Jaspal, Jesus Christ, Prophet Mohammad, they werent GOD, they are his messengers. The reference Guru Granth Sahib ji has is GOD Almighty, as we said earlier, all are on different paths leading to the same thing. GOD is the common entity here, different religions preach differently, but it ends up we are praying to the same common thing.

14. Then I ask you this, why are there pictures and statues of Jesus Christ and crosses in many Christian homes? Are you saying that you would be ok if it were a cross or a picture of Jesus Christ but not if it were pictures of Guruji? There are pictures of Gurus across Sikh homes as marks of respect, GOD is everywhere, and we pray to him asking him for his guidance and blessings anytime, anywhere.

15. I guess, again i would stick to my own guns on this one, Im not speaking for anyone else in this forum, gays and gay marriages is not the norm, if individuals decide to pursue it, then its their own choice, and again they should do what makes them comfortable, at the end of the day we will answer for all our actions this earth. Its not easy to change the perception of human beings on issues of taboo like this. And im sure you would agree that if a person is gay and hellbent on getting married he would want nothing more than to have the blessings of his/her family. Well its up to him/her to explain his/her actions if there is a need for justification. No one wants to loose their family or loved ones but i guess explanations and patience. Please let me know what other scriptures of other religions have to say about this. This is an on going conflict to all religions and we hear about it almost everyday, gay marriages in the us, gay preachers etc you've heard im sure...

16. Again another touchy issue, i speak for my own, if a pregnancy happens by accident between two careless individuals, then they should not punish an unborn child for their mistake, they should do what is right, get married, and raise it with love. If it happens by force, then well, im afraid its really difficult situation to be in. Again, with matters such as this maybe since im not exposed to it so much i cant give you proper answers, again if the other scriptures out there have got answers on them please let me know

18 Again, in Malaysia which is where Im from, i havent seen this. But a Gurdwara is the house gf GOD. Anyone can go in and pray if they so wish.

And if you are stopped from going in maybe you should explain to the individuals about Sikhism. But dont let individuals stop you from doing what you must do

20 Individuals getting angry is not the fault of the Guru Granth Sahibji, maybe these individuals feel they have failed in helping their fellow Sikhs understand or comprehend what the teachings of the Gurus are. At the end of the day, if and individual feels that he/she cant handle the simplicity of Sikhism, and needs to have all the answers laid out in front of him/her, then when do you get a chance to use the greatest gift of all from GOD...you mind! You need to learn, and interpret, question if you have to, but always take the initiative

Rite, Im quite sure u'll be far from happy with all of my answers, thats fine by me, I answered from my heart and from my understanding and if you feel the need to reply my post by undermining whats been said with the way you feel, then so be it. I have spent my time reading forums, reading books, listening to the SGGS ji, I try to live my life the best i can based on the teaching of my Gurus. Id like to tell you something, GOD made a diverse world, he created all types of men and every so often he put stumbling blocks in front of us. I belive it is a test of faith to see how we manage ourselves and how we use what he have learnt to solve the situation, do we crack and blame HIM or do we presevere, with our faith in our hearts, thinking with our minds and overcoming a bad situation by coming out on top and learning from it. I am a strong beliver in never worrying about what other people have to say about what I do, as long as I know that I am doing the right thing, based on my beloved religion and principles and im not hurting anyone in return. Sikhism is alive and kicking and it will always be, i find it offending that you say its blindfaith. Blind faith is for individuals who dont use their brains to think. Sikhism shows you the path, u need to use your mind to thread that path with its teachings as your guide to do what is right or wrong and become a better person

Ok, I hope you find peace in whatever your decision, I dont think anyone is here to force you to do something that you dont wish to do (im not). Again my apologies to anyone out there and to you Jaspal for anything I may have said to insult or hurt you, im merely human and im trying my best to learn everyday to make myself a better person. Take care,god bless and good luck.

[Raveender]

Sat Sri Akaal everyone

After posting my reply, i saw a number of other posts already posted. Id like to apoligize to this forum that I dont have references to back up whatever I have said in my post, as I noticed that almost everyone had proper references. Id like to say that Im still learning everyday about the amazing beauty of our religion and whatever my comments are from my own personal understandings and thoughts about how i see, belief and understand Sikhism. take care and god bless

[Guest]

1. Why did all 10 gurus only marry within their Khatri caste?

First, let me clarify that not all the ten Gurus were married. The eighth Guru, Sri Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji left for his heavenly abode in his childhood. He was not married.

In addition, one should keep it in mind that most of our Gurus were married before they got the 'Guruship'. Do not forget that Guru Angad Dev Ji and Guru Amardas Ji were not even Sikh, when they were married.

You are not the first man, who has asked such question. I remember that in daily 'Punjabi Tribune', they published such questions in their 'Sampaadak Di Daak' column.

Before addressing such a question, I would like to ask you a question: - Is it against the Gurmat to marry within own caste?

Had any Guru been married to a Brahman girl, someone would start to ask why Guru Ji married a Brahman girl, and not any 'Balmik' girl. Had any Guru been married to a Balmik girl, someone would start to ask why Guru Ji married a Balmik girl, and not any Brahman girl. As Gurus, Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guru Arjan Dev Ji (second marriage), Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji, and Guru Gobind Singh Ji were married. There are dozens of castes in Punjab. How was it possible that our Gurus, who were Khatris by chance, would have married the women belonged to all the castes?

Suppose, our Gurus had married women of all the Indian castes, someone would start to raise controversy like this, "Why our Gurus did not marry any Caucasians girl?" Then again, "Why our Gurus did not marry any Nigerian girl?"

You have written, "Please spare me the sakhi stories and other such mythology". Do you know what the word 'Sakhi' means? How do you know that Gurus were married within their caste? Don't you think these are only Sakhis, which tell us that Gurus were married within their caste?

The principles of Sikhism are not based on stories, dear. On the other hand, Christianity is based on stories. Even then, you say, "which are driving me and others away from Sikhism and closer to Christianity".

Read some 'Sakhis' of our Gurus. When you read all the 'Sakhis', I would like to ask you a question, why any of non-Khatri Sikhs did not bring the 'Dola' of his daughter for Guru Gobind Singh Ji, after the death of Mother Jeeto Ji?

An intercaste marriage by any of the Gurus would have encouraged more Sikhs to do so.

Did the marriages of our Gurus within their caste discourage the Sikhs to do inter-caste marriages?

On the other hand, inter-caste marriages were so common during 'Vedic' era in Brahmans and Khatris. We often hear that casteism is an essential part of Hinduism. Did those inter-caste marriages encourage modern Hindus to do inter-caste marriages? If you say Hindus are being married out of their castes, then so are the Sikhs.

2. Why were all 10 gurus of the Khatri caste background ? 7 of the last 10 were direct descendents of the same Sodhi line of Khatris.

Was it wrong that all the Gurus were Khatri? Was it wrong that 7 Gurus were direct descendents of the Sodhhi lineage?

Read our literature to know why it happened. 'Apni Katha' in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib explains it in details.

Here again, had our Gurus been Brahmans, Vaishs, Shudras or Jatts, you would have asked why any of them was not Caucasian or Japanese.

There was nothing new that any Khatri became a Guru. It was very common in ancient India that Khatris became Guru. King Janak Vaidehi is just an example.

What method was used to choose the next Guru ?

Read our old 'Saakhis' and the Gurbani CAREFULLY.

3. If the Gurus were truly messengers of God then why didn't they take their birth in a dalit's home ?

How would you reply to these questions:

If the Gurus were truly messengers of God, then why did they not take birth in a Brahman's home?

If the Gurus were truly messengers of God for all the humanity, then why did they not take birth in an American's or European's house?

A message of a holyman representing the dirt poor is more likely to get more support then the message of a holyman from a rich businessman background.

You are perfectly wrong here.

The message of Bhagat Ravidas Ji could not have support if it would not have added in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Open your eyes and see how the message of our Gurus, who were from so-called high caste, is getting support across the world.

4. I support intercaste marriage because everyone is equal.

What does it make a different? Inter-caste marriages are being solemnized even before your birth.

On that same basis (Sikhism) I support Interreligious marriage too.

Even inter-religion marriages, if you prefer to use this term, are being solemnized across the world. The Religion is an essential part of one's existence and is necessary to get salvation, for some people. For others, it is just an 'opinion'. Marriage itself is a religion. Don't you understand the term 'Grahasth Dharma'?

If you support 'inter-religion religion', it is your 'opinion'. After all, you are living in 'free world'.

Why are so many Sikhs against Interreligious marriage? What is their reason? Everyone is equal according to the Guru Granth Sahib.

Marriage is not a child's game. You have the right to support your 'revolutionary' idea of 'inter-religion marriage', others have the right to oppose it.

Do you know real brother-sister were married, IN AN OPEN CEREMONY in India very recently? As a revolutionary, you may support it. You have the right to do so. However, others will oppose it. Even then, it will happen again and again whether you support it or oppose it. After all, it is a free world. In addition, it is not new either. It was being happened even hundred years ago.

If it is for the fear of losing a Sikh to another religion then let me remind those Sikhs that in the Guru Granth Sahib it says that there is more than 1 path to God. Equality as talked about in the Guru Granth Sahib refers to equality of all mankind. Guru Granth Sahib's teachings on caste/creed/race equality do not apply to the Indian subcontinent alone.

Yes, there are more than one path, but at the same time, Guru Granth Sahib Ji says: -

'Mannai Mag Na Challai Panth'.

The 'Gursikh' follows only one 'Path', which is the 'main road': - 'Gurmukh Gaadi Raah Chalaaya' (Pauri 14, Vaar 18, Bhai Sahib Gurdaas Ji).

5. Why do Sikhs continue to use their surnames or list their caste names as surnames when all Sikhs have been instructed to use just "Singh" and "Kaur" ?

Are you a Sikh? Do you use your caste as surname? If you do, it does not mean all the Sikhs do this.

Dear, not all the Sikhs do this. You are asking such questions; it does not mean all the Sikhs do this.

6. Did Guru Nanak Sahib ever claim to be a messenger of God or in contact with God ?

You were saying, "Everyone is equal according to the Guru Granth Sahib", and "the Guru Granth Sahib it says that there is more than 1 path to God". Now, you have written, "Did Guru Nanak Sahib ever claim to be a messenger of God or in contact with God?"

Had you read/annalyes the Gurbani, you would not have said like this. It makes it very clear that you do NOT know about the Sikhism.

First of all, make your mind and tell us if you believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib or not. There are many lines, which prove that Guru ji came to this world as a messenger o fthe God.

Here are the lines, which are written by Guru Nanak Dev Ji: -

Haun Dhhaadhhi Vekaar Kaarai Laaya.

Raat Dihai Kai Vaar Dhurauh Furmaaya.

Dhhadhhi Sachchai Mahal Khasam Bulaaya.

Sachi Sifat Saalaah Kaparha Paaya.

Sacha Amrit Naam Bhojan Aaya.

Gurmati Khaadha Rajj Tin Sukh Paaya.

Dhhaadhhi Kare Pasaayo Sabd Vajaaya.

Nanak Sach Saalaah Poora Paaya.

(Vaar Maajh Kee Tatha Salok Mahla 1, Page 150).

How do we know that what he said was true or not ?

We know that what he said was true. That is why we are Sikhs. Otherwise, we would not have been Sikhs. (Dear, you are not included in 'we' used in my reply).

How do we know that he was not just reforming Hinduism by mixing in some islamic elements ?

When I want to drink water, I see if it is pure or not. It does not matter to me if this water is naturally pure or is purified by the authorities.

We (you are not included in this word, here) follow Sikhism, which is the pure form of 'Dharma'. We do not bother if Sikhism is a reformed Hinduism or not, though we know that Sikhism and Hinduism are two different religions. How do we (you are not included) it? It is written in Gurbani, "Hindu Anna" (page 875, Sri Guru Granth Sahib). We are not 'Anne', so we are not Hindus.

7. What proof is there that what Guru Nanak Sahib preached was the word of God ? Was it merely blind faith of Indians who will believe in anything ?

The Word of the God is self-proved, dear. One needs 'Antar-Drishti' to understand it.

Not only Indians, but thousands of non-Indians believed Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Those Indians, who were/are blind, did/do NOT believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Neither he cried, nor felt sad.

In addition, read the 'Bible' and see if Christ was sad or not when being killed. You said by yourself that some questions are driving you closer to Christianity.

To understand a small part of the life of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, you will have to take birth on this earth for 9765556185487987674326678219876769187646789 4321864327432198764329864329879854329864329 87643987643298764329843269432187432578094187 63209607632063298632876439876432198764321643 20643210643206432876432864329876432764321986 43287687643287687687664320876076 + 79810965160051875421098797432198043219874309 752197520987321989809865296520954217985429879 798872098654297098754098754987954654209665098509565096509654 9754097545410975497540975498798 + 789015981090976091987618687198761380691687643 12086986104187061766719678432198764321876976 76432876876763767676777776843269862198698643 21876876432198698432169864321987669868716986 432198694321876432198764321986432198643298769 6943218764321678943186387987643298643298643298643287 times.

Historically, Guru Gobind Singh Ji saved the lives of many. Not just spiritually, but physically also. Can you tell how many lives were saved by Christ, physically?

You contradict your own statement. It makes it clear that how are in great 'Dubidhaa'.

Not 'some', but thousands of non-Punjabis are Sikhs.

That is true, unfortunately.

Your post is a big proof that you do NOT know Sikhism and the Gurbani. Read my points given above.

Time changes, but Sikhism does not. Sikhism is neither ritualistic, nor rigid, nor unreal. Read good books on Sikhism. Do 'Ardaas' in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

How can you ask such a question? Why is haircutting not allowed? Why don't you ask why legcutting is not allowed? Why don't you ask why neck-cutting is not allowed?

Rather, you should ask the people, who cut their hair, why they do so.

11. Why is Kosher meat not allowed to be eaten by Sikhs? Again I want a proper answer.

[sexy_singh]

i think the only thing worse than the original post is the first reply by someone who really needs to stop posting without learning how to write english properly.

Dear original poster, you started off with some good questions and i was finding myself both interested and intrigued in your direction of analysis. Then i realised what a damn fool you are. You come to a sikh website and ask us to tell you why sikhism isnt the way you'd like it to be.

You know what the answer is to that? Go elsewhere. No one cares if you convert to christianity. You arent doing any favors to anyone by asking these oh-so-far-fetching questions.

Not that they are that profound in anyway. Half of the sikh teenage populace with an inkling of curiousity end up thinking about these issues as a matter of course.

The fact that you are so arrogant to mock the beloved founders of our faith is horrible. Learn some freaking respect. Most of the people here would kick your ass into the ground for being so rude about our gurus.

My view on the matter is this. IF you find that your way of thinking, your way of being religious is right, then by all means follow that way. Start your own religion. Be the guru the others failed to be. But dont come here being direspectful.

You might have noticed i didnt answer any of your questions. The reason for that is that your approach isnt one of genuine interest and curiousity but one of contempt and condescension.

I extend you a loud bugger off on behalf of likeminded sikhs.

[sexy_singh]

oh and to most people the entirety of the bible is a bunch of sakhis and mythology. How can you be so pompous on the basis of such questionable authority? Do you really believe life was created as in Genesis? There is a whole lot of evidence saying that aint true ma friend...

The new testament is a heap of second hand account transmitted through various cultural periods with each leaving their mark on the text. who knows how authentic that text is, and its hard to verify anything back to the original.

to say the inclusion of something like "this is the word of lord god allah" would make sri guru granth sahib more holy is laughable. the beauty of the sikh writers to me is their humility and humbleness. it would be so uncharacteristic of them to go saying, "hey listen up, im send by god.. thats means im reallly holy .. just so you know. now let me teach you, not by example, but by giving you sermons and lectures". See preaching is given little value. its nothing. Preaching from authority alone can be understood from the same angle. That is why the sikh gurus avoided it.

That isnt the way of the sikh. It lacks genuiness. No religious act means anything unless it is a genuine result of consistent and actual application of principle. Every sikh kid knows this quote attributed to baba nanak, "truth is high, but higher still is truthful living".

to me this sums up the sikh way. forget about what you can say. what can you do? and it is this subtle but crucial point which the idealistic amongst us lose sight. When you are so focused on pushing every little thing to make sure your view is rock solid water tight without contradictions you also leave reality and start wandering around in some fairy tale utopian dream land.

The worst mistake you can make then is to come back to earth and tell everyone else how flawed they are. All you are doing is sitting back and judging others while occasionally doing things cuz you wanna prove to yourself and others that you are better than them.

If that is the motivation behind your actions. IF you are driven by making others look bad and yourself a bit better. Then you are probably a poor religious person. You are the sort of person who causes trouble. You are the root cause of fanaticism.

Most of these refutation posts are a joke too. Whats with posting long messages with little content. Say something original and if you cant, stop repeating whats already been said.

Its a silly idea to allow someone to ask so many questions in one thread. Its gonna be a mess to follow. Can some admin address this?

Actually ranveers second post was quite good. and neo makes a good point about christian missionaries. I find it funny that these idealists come on here and talk about these perfect ideas yet have probably never applied them in their lives for a good amount of time.

[Pheena]

Holy Moly... : :shock: :thumbsup:

[sexy_singh]

i just read inferno munks post. it was wicked... good stuff veer.

also i noticed the original poster put up a shorter list of questions that im willing to tackle.. so here goes!

The biggest questions for me remain:

1. What is the exact need for keeping hair? If hair then why not fingernails?

It makes us look cool. Few sights are more beautiful than a singh or kaur. It partially serves to distinguish sikhs amongst others. But apart from that, it suffices to say that its our thing. We do it, no one else does it. Its a sikh thing. We owe no one any justification.

2. Why did Gurus not marry outside of caste? They talked the talk but their actions indicate otherwise.

Because they werent a bunch of holier-than-thou point scorers. They didnt live their lives with the sole aim of making as many remarkable choices as possible and then gloating in their moral superiority. They didnt reach all their decisions just to make a point. You think that is a good quality to have? To do things just cuz it makes you look good? Its freakin pathetic. And the gurus were above that sort of nonsense. The gurus lived their lives without dramatising things. They took what came their way in stride. Gurus made sure each decision was made in harmony with philosophy but there was no need to make it a point to have each decision mean something profound and meaningful on its own.

3. Why were females not allowed to take part in the Seva when the Saravar of Harmandhir sahib was being cleaned?

Im not sure if you are even right about this, but I wouldnt deny it anyway. Because the SGPC are a bunch of monkeys. They are poor leaders driven by political goals who fail to represent sikhs honestly. If they make backward decisions then more than anything else, that serves as an indictment of their flawed ways.

4. How can SGGS regarded as the word of God when all of its contents were selectively chosen from many different authors who existed in different time periods and were of the same ideology. It appears to be just 1 big compilation of like minded people's work.

As opposed to what? What do you want us to say here? We celebrate this diversity. Its not seen as a negative thing, how can it be? Make your case that it isnt the word of god. And when you go about doing that, please prove to us how any scripture found anywhere is the word of god. You'll find that it is impossible to do. Its a matter of belief and we sikhs believe sri guru granth sahib ji is true. You want us to apologise for that?

[sexy_singh]

Anyone that uses a surname different from Singh and Kaur and uses name like Dhillon, Gill, etc. is a casteist and following caste. That is another way to advertise one's caste.

Bzz! Sorry wrong. A name is but a name. IT doesnt have to mean anything at all. The fact that you see a name as being equivalent to practising casteism is your fallacy. Honestly, how hard is it to determine someone caste? Its trivial if you really wanna know. The smart thing is to realise that attempting to pretend that castes dont exist doesnt make it so. Its also smacks of idealism when in reality people do subscribe to caste. That isnt necessary bad, a point which obviously escapes a person concerned only with establishing moral superiority. You see, if you can live your life, by treating others fairly, irrespective of their caste is, then you have conquered casteism.

[Jagdip Singh]

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

I think the only thing worse than the original post is the first reply by someone who really needs to stop posting without learning how to write english properly.

Quite ironic that he is from "England".

Dear original poster, you started off with some good questions and i was finding myself both interested and intrigued in your direction of analysis. Then i realised what a damn fool you are. You come to a sikh website and ask us to tell you why sikhism isnt the way you'd like it to be.

I just asked simple questions if it's a crime to do so according to yourself then please ignore them.

You know what the answer is to that? Go elsewhere. No one cares if you convert to christianity. You arent dont any favors to anyone by asking these oh-so-far-fetching questions.

It's attitudes like those that are responsible for Sikh youths becoming non-believers and instead of increasing Sikhism's worldwide numbers by converting non-Punjabis this Sikh religion seems to be losing it's own members to other religions and remains as a regional religion of Punjab.

By the way I am also exploring Buddhism, Islam and other religions. Are you going to mock them too?

The fact that you are so arrogant to mock the beloved founders of our faith is horrible. Learn some freaking respect. Most of the people here would kick your ass into the ground for being so rude about our gurus.

If mocking is equivalent to asking simple questions then I am guilty of doing so. Why are Sikhs reluctant to ask questions about Sikhism and follow blind faith?

You might have noticed i didnt answer any of your questions. The reason for that is that your approach isnt one of genuine interest and curiousity but one of contempt and condescension.

My interest is "genuine". This is just a poor cop-out on your part for not being able to adequately answer ANY of the questions.

and to most people the entirety of the bible is a bunch of sakhis and mythology. How can you be so pompous on the basis of such questionable authority? Do you really believe life was created as in Genesis? There is a whole lot of evidence saying that aint true ma friend...

Go ahead and slander Christianity. Is that your answers to the questions? Do you have no other response? I am not a Christian yet

The new testament is a heap of second hand account transmitted through various cultural periods with each leaving their mark on the text. who knows how authentic that text is, and its hard to verify anything back to the original.

Actually the new testament is a continuation of the Old testament as Christianity claims to be a continuation of Judaism. Its authenticity is not questioned in the way that the authenticity of both the Dasam Granth and Adi Granth are questioned. The Adi Granth is nothing more than a compilation of the work of individuals with the same ideology over a period of a couple hundred years. Hardly the "word of God" as some Sikhs claim.

If that is the motivation behind your actions. IF you are driven by making others look bad and yourself a bit better. Then you are probably a poor religious person. You are the sort of person who causes trouble. You are the root cause of fanaticism.

I am driven by the quest of knowledge and truth. If the truth hurts then so be it.

Its a silly idea to allow someone to ask so many questions in one thread. Its gonna be a mess to follow. Can some admin address this?

Since you unable to provide answers you have to resort to ask for a ban?

This is my final post on this one-sided fanatic hateful site. I am leaving on my own accord. I will try a third Sikh forum: Sikhnet.com . Sikhawareness.com and sikh-history.com both failed to answer a single question.

Actually ranveers second post was quite good. and neo makes a good point about christian missionaries. I find it funny that these idealists come on here and talk about these perfect ideas yet have probably never applied them in their lives for a good amount of time.

I never asked for an attack on Christians or Christianity. I asked simple questions about Sikhism. None of you have bothered to answer a single question.

The biggest questions for me remain:

1. What is the exact need for keeping hair? If hair then why not fingernails?

It makes us look cool. Few sights are more beautiful than a singh or kaur. It partially serves to distinguish sikhs amongst others. But apart from that, it suffices to say that its our thing. We do it, no one else does it. Its a sikh thing. We owe no one any justification.

A NON-ANSWER. Once you find a reason for hair then you can give a reason why nail cutting is allowed. Thanks in advance.

Quote:

2. Why did Gurus not marry outside of caste? They talked the talk but their actions indicate otherwise.

Because they werent a bunch of holier-than-thou point scorers. They didnt live their lives with the sole aim of making as many remarkable choices as possible and then gloating in their moral superiority. They didnt make all their decisions just to make a point. You think that is a good quality to have? To do things just cuz it makes you look good? Its freakin pathetic. And the gurus were above that sort of nonsense. The gurus lived their lives without dramatising things. They took what came their way in stride. Gurus made sure each decision was made in harmony with philosophy but there was no need to make it a point to have each decision mean something profound and meaningful on its own.

Another NON-ANSWER. What is the lie in saying that they only married in caste and talked about abolishing caste? The best way to abolish caste is intermarriage. That is something the actions of all the Gurus showed that they didn't beleive in 1 iotta.

Quote:

3. Why were females not allowed to take part in the Seva when the Saravar of Harmandhir sahib was being cleaned?

Im not sure if you are even right about this, but I wouldnt deny it anyway. Because the SGPC are a bunch of monkeys. They are poor leaders driven by political goals who fail to represent sikhs honestly. If they make backward decisions then more than anything else, that serves as an indictment of their flawed ways.

Again another non-Sikh. Sikhism talks about equality. In practice its policies regarding women's participation is the same as the Taliban's treatment of women. Why is there almost no women granthis when they make up 1/2 the population? Sorry I must correct that last statement. Since Sikhs have been killing off their baby girls it's correct to say that women are closer to 35% of the Sikh population in India.

Quote:

4. How can SGGS regarded as the word of God when all of its contents were selectively chosen from many different authors who existed in different time periods and were of the same ideology. It appears to be just 1 big compilation of like minded people's work.

As opposed to what? What do you want us to say here? We celebrate this diversity. Its not seen as a negative thing, how can it be? Make your case that it isnt the word of god. And when you go about doing that, please prove to us how any scripture found anywhere is the word of god. You'll find that it is impossible to do. Its a matter of belief and we sikhs believe sri guru granth sahib ji is true. You want us to apologise for that?

This is another cop-out NON-ANSWER. It's a compilation of similar ideas of people with similar ideologies. Can you even tell me why only some of Kabir's shaloks were included in this Adi Granth?

Can you tell me why Sikhs worship the Adi Granth as an Idol?

Can you provide me with any evidence to show that Sikhism is not just another sect of Hinduism and that Guru Nanak was not merely just reforming Hinduism. He never claimed to be a messenger of God himself. He never claimed to start Sikhism. If you have proof of any of that please provide it.

All that you believe is blind faith. That is all you have shown in your non-answers and hateful responses to legitimate questions. Would you treat a white man who was interested in converting the vey same way?

As we can not have a fair discussion of ideas here, and some people have resorted to slander of other religions and threatening me with bans I am leaving this site on my own accord.

This is my final post. I will post the same questions on Sikhnet shortly.

By the way I am looking at Arya Samaj a lot closer than Christianity. Are you going to attack Arya Samaj and Hindus now and go on and on about how Hindus did this and that to Sikhism? Get a life you fundamentalist haters. Arya Samaj is the exact same Sikhism without the meaningless rituals. Just tell me which came first Adi Granth or the Vedas ? That's why Dharmender the actor and Shaheed Bhagat Singh both were members of this great religion.

I wholeheartedly agree with Swami Dayanand ji's comments about Guru Nanak. Nanak was nothing more than a fraud.

Bzz! Sorry wrong. A name is but a name. IT doesnt have to mean anything at all. The fact that you see a name as being equivalent to practising casteism is your fallacy. Honestly, how hard is it to determine someone caste? Its trivial if you really wanna know. The smart thing is to realise that attempting to pretend that castes dont exist doesnt make it so. Its also smacks of idealism when in reality people do subscribe to caste. That isnt necessary bad, a point which obviously escapes a person concerned only with establishing moral superiority. You see, if you can live your life, by treating others fairly, irrespective of their caste is, then you have conquered casteism.

This statement shows us that You along with a great deal other Sikhs endorse caste. Don't you get it? Caste is a man-made artificial way to split people. Those who are "low caste" are humans too. By having names like Dhillon, Gill, Randhawa and flaunting your being Jatt and Khatri heritages you people are in effect slapping across the face those who have not been fortunate enough to be born into upper class homes. I am of Jatt heritage myself but strongly am opposed to caste because I sincerely believe in FULL EQAULITY. The same cannot be said of Sikhs and Sikhism.

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

[sexy_singh]

Its never a crime to ask a question. But you and everyone else here knows you are working under a pretense. In fact any number of assumptions can be drawn as to your motivation, but i will not indulge in them in this post.

No that isnt ironic. Ironic means something else. Perhaps the word you are looking for is coincidence.

It's attitudes like those that are responsible for Sikh youths becoming non-believers ...

Im a sikh youth. Im quite aware of what problems sikh youth face and what sort of things they think about, thankyou very much.

Feel free to explore whatever religion you'd like. That isnt something i care about. I will not mock any religion, nor have i done that. If you are talking about my comments as to the veracity of biblical literature then you must realise that says nothing about christ or other key figures in christianity.

Perhaps your inability to glean any "answers" as you are so fond of repeating hinges on your lack of actual interest. Its quite evident that you have come here with an agenda and you seem to think we cannot see it. Please do not insult our intelligence.

Go ahead and slander Christianity. Is that your answers to the questions? Do you have no other response? I am not a Christian yet

Again, i couldnt care less what religion you belong to. Stop playing the victim here. And i'd like to ask you the same. Do you not have any other response apart from whinging about a non-answer and crying about the sikhs hating the little christian/arya-samaj-member.

You keep trying to get people to take up the old nails vs hair thing. Do you honestly think we havent seen that a million times before? Find something new please. You are quite boring and redundant. Im not biting you, troll. We keep kesh because its a sikh thing to do. Its part of our identity. That is enough.

You cannot abolish castes without forcing your morality upon others. And that is fundamentally at odds with sikh principles. Please try to grasp this with your limited intellect.

Stop blatantly lying. Im sure you cannot prove the 35% figure you have pulled out of your behind. I see you have no qualms over making up lies to make an argument.

Treat what white man? Hypotheticals are a favorite tool of the idealistic moral warrior. Well done. No one threatened to ban you, stop acting like a little kid. I was asking an admin to point out to you that it inpractical to have a thread with so many questions being answered. It leads to large posts which leave the basic ideas lost in clutter.

The sikh grievances over the years are well documented and if you were truly openminded you wouldnt dismiss them the way you have. Calling me a fundamentalist is a joke. Im far from it, in fact in all my posts i've argued against fundamentalism. You are showing your true colours by putting out more bait. Im not biting:

. Arya Samaj is the exact same Sikhism without the meaningless rituals. Just tell me which came first Adi Granth or the Vedas ?

thanks for calling my guru a fraud. This debate is over. Im going to sleep.

[sexy_singh]

uh, dumbass you say castes are wrong just by existing then you go on to admit to be jatt. You are really bad at this. Im sorry to have wasted my time. heh.

[commander]

Whats with all the trolls lately?

Jagga, you are welcome to "convert" to Christianity any time you want. Why the heck are you here anyways?

Mod(s), if you will be so kind to delete all posts by this troll, I do not think the sangat will mind.

[sexy_singh]

commander i only returned to SA after a long break today .. i didnt realise there were trolls on the loose :/

this guy isnt a christian. i reckon hes a hindu fundamentalist of some kind. you can tell by the way he spells "shalok".

*sigh* talk about envy

i picked him straight away. shoulda trusted my instincts. wasted a whole night for no reason. at least i can stake claim to cracking him open .. even tho it meant the release of hateful venom.

sat sri akal everyone.

[Infernal Monk]

I think this thread can be locked now. Simply because all the questions that have been asked have been answered in a very fair and kind manner. Also because if the one asking is not willing to see anything in an objective light then this is really a waste of time. I do not see what else you want Jagdip. If you look on the first page of this post some very good answers have been given.

And on the topic of hair; there are a few reasons why Sikhs keep hair. For one it is because we consider it a gift from god, and if god gives you a gift you cherish it. Two, it was said by Guru Gobind Singh ji, that Sikhs should keep their hair so as to provide a unique identity. I believe there was a quote along the lines of: my Sikh will be seen in a crowd of 1,000. It was to empower Sikhs to fear no one especially the Mughals at the time trying to covert everyone.

I also invite you to your own thought. You told others questioning Christianity to read the bible; well then I encourage you to read SGGS, or other Sikh literature. Your questions have been answered, if you are still not satisfied, then please be my guest and read some.