Mr §ingh Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 ever thought that women look at men in "that" way aswell? of course women can be in the panj pyare. look. there werent any white or black people in the original panj. does that mean there cant be a white or black panj today? of course not. it was gurus hukam that 5 men came up and they were predestined, but women can still be in the panj!!!!! hmm agree wiv u but u mean 5 SIKHS ?!?! I agree wiv u fully and hey So Teel Bangel ji..not that I'mm trying to offend you or anythin like that but according to The SIkh Rehat maryada Woman are aloud to be wiv in the Panj Pyaare.. are we THAT "Smart" that we can COntrevert...the Sikh REhat Maryada publish by Akal Takhat Saheb :S :S :S :o? Personlly I can't challange the Sikh rehat Maryada thus I can only accept it and agree wiv that Sikh Woman Should/are alloud today to be in the Panj pyaare deos it really matter? lol wouldn't u feel offended if sum1 called u Penji lol //BHULLA CHUKKA MAAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 hey guys of course it was gurus hukam 5 people were gonna come up - he knew exactly who they were before they even stood up. guruji is all knowing. baba deep singh was also in that crowd, and many others. they were brave enough to give their head but they didnt. there is a reason behind everything. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator note: No rumour or personal views. This site should not be used for personal views but for real facts and references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 hey guys of course it was gurus hukam 5 people were gonna come up - he knew exactly who they were before they even stood up. guruji is all knowing. baba deep singh was also in that crowd, and many others. they were brave enough to give their head but they didnt. there is a reason behind everything. could u care to tell us where did u get that prophecy from about baba deep singh ji??? pls reply back 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manvir Singh Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 sat sri akall, khalsa jee i have a picture of the panj piyaree which includes females hopefully this will settle our debate however i have not been able to find a way of posting it on the messageboard so if someone can show me how i will gladly share waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishpinder.K.Jagpal Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 wow... this should be interesting a picture with the panj pyiare which includes women... hmmm...., but i think the mentalilty of the youth today is based strongly on equal rights, yes, sikhi is about eqaulity, that dont mean certain things like this change, mayb its my 'backward thinking' which knows that the panj pyiare were 5 men and can only be 5 men, but if u ask ur parents or people in the generation above us, im sure they would agree with me on my points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 wow... this should be interesting a picture with the panj pyiare which includes women... hmmm...., but i think the mentalilty of the youth today is based strongly on equal rights, yes, sikhi is about eqaulity, that dont mean certain things like this change, mayb its my 'backward thinking' which knows that the panj pyiare were 5 men and can only be 5 men, but if u ask ur parents or people in the generation above us, im sure they would agree with me on my points! well I asked My parent about this. and they Also said that in the SIkh REhat Maryada It States that EVERy1 in REhat.. No matter Sex / CAste /race.. etc is alloud to Amrit Shakana = GIve Amrit...though ONLY IF THEY ARE IN REHAT:::. and Another thing My personal point of veiw is.. I don't see any Equality If WOman are not alloud to give Amrit and be a part of Panj Pyaare..If Women are alloud to do other Sevas.. Doesn´t mean that they have equalk rights any way Because they can´t Give Amrit , That is completly against Equility.. I can see no Equality...IN SIKHISigm -> IF <- that is the case:o :o :roll: :roll: :roll: That was my personal point of veiw my personal though abouth this: *IN GODS EYES NO1 ...IS SHUDAR...OR BRAHMAN......MAN OR WOMAN* -> YES TO EQUALITY NO TO DISCRIMINATION! //BHULLA CHUKKA MAAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUKHBIR Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, If the Amrit ceremony of 1699 was to be carried out as a historical re-enactment then it would be inaccurate to have a female representing one of the original panj pyarae because the fact of the matter is that none of the panj pyarae of 1699 were women that's fairly straightforward. The fact that they were men is hardly surprising given the very different attitudes that existed at the time could you really expect unaccompanied women to attend? And given they would be there with their family or husband do you think they would be allowed to stand up at a public meeting? We are talking about a time where even in what we consider to be our liberal old 'blighty' women were expected to be seen and not heard. It was not until 1870 that women in this country were legally allowed to keep any money they had earned !! Bear in mind also that women have only had the right to vote in this country for less than a hundred years and we are talking about Panjab over 300 years ago. It is amazing to think how recently the western concept of gender equality came into being (women get equal voting rights in England in 1928) whereas Guru Nanak Dev Ji was sponsoring women's equality 500 years ago! Sikhi preaches equality and equality is what we should have, there are those within our community that practise a version of casteism that is not to say that Sikhs believe in caste, it is simply people who consider themselves to be Sikh that are following un-Sikh practices. In the same way in practical term's those of us who have grown up in Panjabi households will be aware that often that gender equality doesn't exist however you may not lay the blame for that situation at the door of the Sikh faith, the instructions are there if you follow them you shall reap the benefits and if not then that's your choice. As stated in the beginning of this post it is correct that no women did stand on that historical day but that is no reason at all to say women should not take part in the Amrit ceremony today. It is totally in line with Guruji's teachings that women should not be discriminated against on any grounds. Simply, if a women can receive amrit she should also be able to administer it for once it is taken are we all not one? Don't forget that Guruji received amrit himself after administering it in order to exemplify the total equality it provided. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, If the Amrit ceremony of 1699 was to be carried out as a historical re-enactment then it would be inaccurate to have a female representing one of the original panj pyarae because the fact of the matter is that none of the panj pyarae of 1699 were women that's fairly straightforward. The fact that they were men is hardly surprising given the very different attitudes that existed at the time could you really expect unaccompanied women to attend? And given they would be there with their family or husband do you think they would be allowed to stand up at a public meeting? We are talking about a time where even in what we consider to be our liberal old 'blighty' women were expected to be seen and not heard. It was not until 1870 that women in this country were legally allowed to keep any money they had earned !! Bear in mind also that women have only had the right to vote in this country for less than a hundred years and we are talking about Panjab over 300 years ago. It is amazing to think how recently the western concept of gender equality came into being (women get equal voting rights in England in 1928) whereas Guru Nanak Dev Ji was sponsoring women's equality 500 years ago! Sikhi preaches equality and equality is what we should have, there are those within our community that practise a version of casteism that is not to say that Sikhs believe in caste, it is simply people who consider themselves to be Sikh that are following un-Sikh practices. In the same way in practical term's those of us who have grown up in Panjabi households will be aware that often that gender equality doesn't exist however you may not lay the blame for that situation at the door of the Sikh faith, the instructions are there if you follow them you shall reap the benefits and if not then that's your choice. As stated in the beginning of this post it is correct that no women did stand on that historical day but that is no reason at all to say women should not take part in the Amrit ceremony today. It is totally in line with Guruji's teachings that women should not be discriminated against on any grounds. Simply, if a women can receive amrit she should also be able to administer it for once it is taken are we all not one? Don't forget that Guruji received amrit himself after administering it in order to exemplify the total equality it provided. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh true said And now We've got the answer 4 WHY no women stod up that day... now we know that does that say n e thing? As stated in the beginning of this post it is correct that no women did stand on that historical day but that is no reason at all to say women should not take part in the Amrit ceremony today. NOw we also knwo WHY there weren't n e woman involved in the Panj pyaare 1699.....That explains it all...and thus Women are not to blame! as My Veer Sukhbir Singh ji stated... It is totally in line with Guruji's teachings that women should not be discriminated against on any grounds. Simply, if a women can receive amrit she should also be able to administer it for once it is taken are we all not one? //Bhulla CHukka Maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 WJKK WJKF Well I think that women should not be part of the panj pyaray. The reason being that when Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked for a head all men stood up and why didn't any women stand upon the Guru. According to Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Bindrawale, He also stated in their bachan that women should not be part of the panj pyaray for the same reason as above. Jazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishpinder.K.Jagpal Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 nice to see someone else agreeing with me!! thanx jazz! hey manvir singh, still waiting for the pic! :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAAL Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 look we gettin too too western, its stupid this western philosphy of equality, these extreme women rights activists, i think its gettin to apni kuris heads, their philosphy if u can urintate whilst standind so can we! but it stupid, there are certain things we can and can not do, like males cant have babies, (unless medically altered). we have bein living in harmony since satjug, now in kaljug, we cum to england, and thats all right, sum how i dont thinkso. If it wernt for the feminists u wouldnt have had these silly questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Now if you want to discuss it then you must provide references as personal comments and opinion will be deleted without any notice. Reference/s (e.g., a web site, book, magazine, journal etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 WJKK WJKF SAngat ji I've got a referance from the SIkh REhat Maryada.. SIKH REHAT MARYADA states: c. The five beloved (Panj Piyare) ones who administer ambrosial baptism not include a disabled person, such as a person who is blind or blind in one eye, lame, one with a broken or disabled limb, or one suffering from some chronic disease. The number should not include anyone who has committed a breach of the Sikh discipline and principles. All of them should be committed baptised Sikhs with appealing personalities. d. Any man or woman of any country, religion or caste who embraces Sikhism and solemnly undertakes to abide by its principles is entitled to ambrosial baptism. source: http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html Now my point is that it doesn¨t say taht only men are allowed to be a part of the Panj pyaare.. it says : All of them should be committed baptised Sikhs with appealing personalities. now that means that it can either be a man or woman who give Amrit... The condiction is that the person is in Rehat //Bhulla Chukka Maaf WJKK WJKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishpinder.K.Jagpal Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 have u emailed them askin whether women can do this seva, cause to others it may just be presumed that evryone knows that only men can do this seva! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 altho i am not on either side for or against women doin panj pyare di seva.... mr singh ur quoting from the sgoc rehat maryada... they dont even let women do shri guru granth sahib di palki di seva in the morning.... :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogroup singh Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 ok time to give my input to this debate. I have been reading it for long and I thought of posting few quotes from Gurbani so I can make it clear that everybody should understand Gurbani first if they want to question Sikh Rehat maryada or anything related to Amrit-Dhari Singhs. Here are the quotes: (473-14, Asa Mahala 1) naanak fikai boli-ai tan man fikaa ho-ay. O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid. fiko fikaa sadee-ai fikay fikee so-ay. He is called the most insipid of the insipid; the most insipid of the insipid is his reputation. fikaa dargeh satee-ai muhi thukaa fikay paa-ay. The insipid person is discarded in the Court of the Lord, and the insipid one's face is spat upon. fikaa moorakh aakhee-ai paanaa lahai sajaa-ay. ||1|| The insipid one is called a fool; he is beaten with shoes in punishment. ||1|| I will post my reply to on going debate soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishpinder.K.Jagpal Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 ummm.... i dont understand how the quote relates to this topic... plz enlighten us... taken from the Damdami Taksal website "...Amrit has only been prepared and bestowed by Panj Piaré and never by one or two Singhs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Here is my tw0 cents, we all know at 1699 singhs gave head for khalsa panth! so they deserve it. so whats the debate for?? get over it people.. start another thread about "Sikh Women doing seeva at harminder sahib" or something.. because thats the most important issue to talk about as for now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogroup singh Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 ummm.... i dont understand how the quote relates to this topic... plz enlighten us... Sister, Those quotes are there to guide everyone with Gurbani that don't involve yourself in blaming each other or ORGS but discuss it with peace of mind and intelligently. My reply is still there to come as I said, so im not done but I wanted to paste that real quick so we don't go off the limits with our personal comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Hi there, Not read any of the Posts, sorry but i Had to ask the question, WHY are all the Spice Girls Women?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAAL Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 cause the name is spice GIRLS dont u get it, if was spice people, then they could of had a man, actually their manager was male :? i am all confused now! now in sikhi we call them the panj pyare and not the panj pyareea oh i dont know, to hard for such a feeble mind sorry i tried though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Please take the spice girl gossip in general thread. Stick to the topic or else this topic will be locked!!!! So yeah please post spice girls convo in general forum!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Sorry Pradhaan Ji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 So kyo Maanda Aakhiye Jit Jaama Rajan ?!?! hmm: So KYO manda aakhiye Jit Jaama Rajan. and LOADS of more quotes are avalable ..showing theat GUru ji wanted EQUALITY.........jus picked the most common one...... But if Guru JI Wanted Equality.. then Women are alloud to be a part of panj pyaare...... if not equality..tha thats another case.. altho i am not on either side for or against women doin panj pyare di seva.... mr singh ur quoting from the sgoc rehat maryada... they dont even let women do shri guru granth sahib di palki di seva in the morning.... :roll: IS IT :|?!?!?! :shock: .....Wasn't aware of that :S *YES to equality.. NO to discrimination..!!!* /bhulla CHukka maaf WJKK WJKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAAL Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Just cause we live in the west, doesnt measn our philosophy is wrong, you come here been brought up on the western ideals and principals, and forsake your own, i say again, this way of thinking has come from the time of satjug and has worked then was working untill the time of guru jee, and in most households is still working now. Just cause you are not allowed to do something in discrmination. you sure you arnt a spice girl? First of all find out what the indian philosphy was, why it worked, and why it is breaking down in todays society, (other then the fact that it is kaljug) i am away for about a week or so if i get interent access i will try and email something, i will copy extracts of an email i got yesterday, and you know what it so true! >If you get a promotion ahead of her, that is favoritism. >If she gets a job ahead of you, it's equal opportunity. >If you make a decision without consulting her, you're a chauvinist. >If she makes a decision without consulting you, she's a liberated woman. >If you ask her to do something she doesn't enjoy, that's domination. >If she asks you, it's a favor. Thats todays western philosophy about Equality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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