I know this is gonna cause a pungah

[double_edge]

Hi all,

I have a question that may possibly have been covered already on various threads, but i'd like to, if i may consolidate the knowledge shared by yourselves so that i may increase my understanding in one particular area..

Please let me state clearly in advance that the aim is not to offend, neither am i affiliated to any particular Jatha or political group. im what u might call an open mind.

Ok, so heres whats confusing me: People are very passionate abt recognising Sikhi as an independent religion (or way of life as i understand it).. and alot of people seem to be very anti Hinduism.. from what i gather the bulk of this is to do with the attrocitiies commited against Sikhs in 84 and the actions of various right wing Hindu organisations upto the present day trying to "absorb" Sikhi as a branch of Hinduism..

But where do we exactly draw the line between our beleifs and theirs?

The reason i ask is that i have recently been trying to read translations of Baani and Dassam Granth (www.sridasam.org if anyone wants to check it out) and there are numerous and repeated references to "Hindu" dieties such as Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, Bhagauti/Durga/Channdi (who i understand are one and the same, and from what i gather it would seem they are referring to her as a Mother figure to the universe, almost like Mahraj in their female aspect), Krishan, Ram, Indra, Kaali etc the list goes on.

So we're not Hindus, i consider myself a Sikh (albeit a shamefully poor excuse for a Sikh) but why all the common denominators?

One explanation i have been given is that all the aformentioned Devs and Devis exist, and there is a heirarchy with everyone doing their respective jobs keeping Mahraj's system in balance, that would be everything from individually influencing our lives due to our Karam, to providing, nurturing and in time destroying all the temporal things on the planet.(and thats just one explanation i've been given, could be totally wrong for all i know),

So our Gurus recognise and refer to all of the above mentioned dieties then where is Sikhi in relation to Hinduism?

I understand there are going to be some very passionate responses to this post, but please, if i may request that we stay on topic. I would much rather read 5 pages of different thoughts and hopefully learned opinions that 10 pages of people having a Punjabi Rumble! (lets save that for the "yo mamma so fat thread, which i'll start later )

[Niranjana]

<<Ok, so heres whats confusing me: People are very passionate abt recognising Sikhi as an independent religion (or way of life as i understand it).. and alot of people seem to be very anti Hinduism.. from what i gather the bulk of this is to do with the attrocitiies commited against Sikhs in 84 and the actions of various right wing Hindu organisations upto the present day trying to "absorb" Sikhi as a branch of Hinduism.>>

As you stated “the actions of VARIOUS RIGHT WING Hindu organisations†– unfortunately some people ignore the “right wing†part and lump all Hindus into the same category, the same way, that Sikhs are lumped into certain stereotypes. This is where the problems begin and although deep down everyone knows this, no one is happy to accept that they have been harsh in their judgement.

<<But where do we exactly draw the line between our beleifs and theirs? >>

We have the Sikh Rehit Maryada which spells out our conduct and we have Gurbani from both the Sri Guru and the Dasam Granth Sahibs to guide us in our jeevans. This should be what we focus upon.

<<The reason i ask is that i have recently been trying to read translations of Baani and Dassam Granth (www.sridasam.org if anyone wants to check it out) and there are numerous and repeated references to "Hindu" dieties such as Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, Bhagauti/Durga/Channdi (who i understand are one and the same, and from what i gather it would seem they are referring to her as a Mother figure to the universe, almost like Mahraj in their female aspect), Krishan, Ram, Indra, Kaali etc the list goes on. >>

What problem is there if these are mentioned? Have a look at another religious text, say the Koran, it will mention Jesus and Abraham, does that mean Muslims are essentially Christian or Jewish? Semetic, yes, the same – no. Same, Sikhs are part of the South Asian subcontinent, we are not foreign to that land, but we are not identical to everyone else in it.

<<So we're not Hindus, i consider myself a Sikh (albeit a shamefully poor excuse for a Sikh) but why all the common denominators?>>

Singh Sahib, we are not all black, white, brown, yellow or whatever, but why all the common denominators when it comes to being human? No two legal systems or civic codes from different countries are the same, likewise with organisations, but they also have common denominators.

<<One explanation i have been given is that all the aformentioned Devs and Devis exist, and there is a heirarchy with everyone doing their respective jobs keeping Mahraj's system in balance, that would be everything from individually influencing our lives due to our Karam, to providing, nurturing and in time destroying all the temporal things on the planet.(and thats just one explanation i've been given, could be totally wrong for all i know), >>

That’s one theory…

<<So our Gurus recognise and refer to all of the above mentioned dieties then where is Sikhi in relation to Hinduism?>>

As above, the Koran recognises all the prophets before Muhammad, including Jesus and Abraham, where do you think that leaves Islam in relation to Christianity and Judaism? I think the answer is quite clear…

Mere mention of something or mere respect of someone, does not equate to worship of that item, person, being or idea.

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana.

[Inder Singh]

This same old topic again.

Sikhism originated in Hindustan, as a result it drew upon Hindu mythology. There are numerous traditions in Hindustan that use shiva vishnu kali etc as metaphors for internal concepts. There is not one uniform interpretation of the godess kali across India she is portrayed differently in different traditions.

These devta and devtian are just metaphors for sprirtual concepts, they are not "real", in the way we westerners use the word. Spiritual teachers can use these concepts to expound their own philosophy. Sikh philosphy is different to some traditions in hindustan and it also shares some similarities with some traditions.

In other words don't worry be happy

[double_edge]

Wow, never heard it put that way.. Devs and Devis simply metaphors? thats deep.. definately food for thought.. thanks man.. anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

[Guest SAdmin]

I read these articles long time back and didn't have time to check them again. But writer has given good piece of information to look at and rest is upto us how we take it.

I think it is worth checking these two articles.

http://www.boloji.com/sikhism/005.htm

http://www.boloji.com/sikhism/005a.htm

I welcome all my Sikh brothers/sisters to comments on these two articles. Please come up with some objective answers.

[Slugz]

Unfortunately, I dont think it is Hindu mythology!

Someone very close to me was on his way to Heimkunt Sahib... and on the way he passed a holy Hindu Mandir... and the Hindus urged him to bow his head as a form of respect for the Mandir but he refused to...

A few minutes later he saw a Hindu GOD staring directly at him... no BS... understandably he was like 'aww thwadiiii!'

[Pheena]

Look at God from being a Human without a Lable from any Sect/Religion/Ethinicty..etc and tell me if you cannot see Jesus, Muhammed, Guru Nanak, Buddha, Krishan as all his forms. When we confine ourselves to a religion/sect/ethinicty then everything else becomes the other and what our personal religion/sect/ethnicty belives in becomes ours.

The Truth about the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva are not 'Hindu' nor are they in any way confined to the umbrellas of 'Hindus'. Yoga is not 'Hindu' these are the Truths under the umbrella of Existance/God. Because they were first realized by Rishi in the Indian subcontinent does not mean it belonged to them, just as the Electricity does not belong belong to the West or Christianity. It is a discovery for Humanity. Looking at this world and all that has been spoke about God and his Creation from an objective stand point. It all is Yours. This Knowledge, wisdom belongs to everyone, not one sect, religion or nation. It is Yours, it is Mine, it is theirs. but we are too confined to our boundries and dare not see the world as our own. A Saint is such that he gives up his family and his Lables and only then does he become related to the entire world/existance and every Lable becomes his own...every man, woman child becomes his and he sees them as a part of them.

"Maanas key Jaat subh Aiko Pachaan"

my apologies as i think i went off the tangent a little.

[Guest]

awesome best post pheena purkha .. you smashed it again :D

[Inder Singh]

Look at God from being a Human without a Lable from any Sect/Religion/Ethinicty..etc and tell me if you cannot see Jesus, Muhammed, Guru Nanak, Buddha, Krishan as all his forms. When we confine ourselves to a religion/sect/ethinicty then everything else becomes the other and what our personal religion/sect/ethnicty belives in becomes ours.

if you are a sikh you see "god" from the specific cultural viewpoint of a sikh, if you are a muslim or christian you see god in a different way to a Sikh. I am sorry but all this new age drivel of the "sameness" of all religions is quite wrong. Religions/cultures are different we should respect diversity within religions, not try to make them all the same, in my view that is a deep insult to religious traditions.

With regard to the rest of Pheena's post it is very nicely put, but 99.9% of people have not realised spritual union with whatever, and are striving to do so (or not) these people live in a world of differences and simply saying that we are all one etc. will not help a spirtual aspirant in any way. Enquiry into Sikhism and trying to understand how Hinduism relates to it, can help a spiritual aspirant on his/her journey, rather just prattling on about with meaningless niceties.

[Pheena]

Look at God from being a Human without a Lable from any Sect/Religion/Ethinicty..etc and tell me if you cannot see Jesus, Muhammed, Guru Nanak, Buddha, Krishan as all his forms. When we confine ourselves to a religion/sect/ethinicty then everything else becomes the other and what our personal religion/sect/ethnicty belives in becomes ours.

if you are a sikh you see "god" from the specific cultural viewpoint of a sikh, if you are a muslim or christian you see god in a different way to a Sikh. I am sorry but all this new age drivel of the "sameness" of all religions is quite wrong. Religions/cultures are different we should respect diversity within religions, not try to make them all the same, in my view that is a deep insult to religious traditions.

Veer ji, By no means am i trying to belittle the importance of diversity of religions and their perceptions of God. But what i am saying is that behind these diversities is the same source, the same stream of divinity. When we confine ourselves to a Religion then the stream that is defined by Sikhi becomes our and the rest become theirs. As we own our and they own theirs. Such is not the case in the eye of the one who belongs to the one who belongs to the creator alone and sees the entire creation as His.

As in the quote the first words i said, from a human's prespective, not as someone who is a part of an 'ism'. Just be a part of existance without Lables, then every message is for you. Look at how many ways he is trying to get you to come to him, thru Krishna, thru Jesus, thru buddha he is calling for you.

[Inder Singh]

I understand what you are saying, sohneyo, but we cannot confuse different planes. We are discussing in this thread hindu and sikh religion, if we start saying "O it doesn't matter everything is waheguru" then there is no point in discssing anything.

Let me give you an example that i read somewhere once, to clarify what i mean. If everything is one, if everyone is Brahman or underlying divinity or whatever. Then there is no difference between mother sister or wife but in everyday life there is a difference

[Pheena]

I understand what you are saying, sohneyo, but we cannot confuse different planes. We are discussing in this thread hindu and sikh religion, if we start saying "O it doesn't matter everything is waheguru" then there is no point in discssing anything.

If only it was that simple to do than just say. Perhaps it should be and perhaps there is no need to discuss anything given that we can grasp that one simple truth that he is everything. Only then there would be nothing left to discuss and we can all go home for aloo they paronthay with lasiee :yum:

Let me give you an example that i read somewhere once, to clarify what i mean. If everything is one, if everyone is Brahman or underlying divinity or whatever. Then there is no difference between mother sister or wife but in everyday life there is a difference

[mloco]

the difference between Sikhi and Hinduism is that we dont worship the Hindu gods.

We are told the truth of how they are created and who they are and what they did. Nowehere are we told to worship them. On the contrary - all their feats end up being attributed to Waheguru. The Hindu trinity does not get nadar of Waheguru - this is his play - they are not Nirankar - bt that does not mean that they are not huge devte.

Even in Dasam Granth Sahib, after description of something a Hindu god has done it is followed with a phrase like 'the Creator himself has created this play'

According to Chandi Di Vaar there are two sides to devte - the demons and the 'gods' - that fight each other. Both the feats of the demons and gods are praised by Guruji. Sikhi is above both of these - we take no side - we have no enemy. This is nishani of a true Sikh - that they have no enemy, you only fight when it necessary, and is the right thing to do - when all other means have failed.

We only fight in self defence, otherwise our duty is to serve the Creator, the one True God.

[Inder Singh]

the difference between Sikhi and Hinduism is that we dont worship the Hindu gods.

if you do some reading about the hindu religious tradition you will find out that Hindus are not supposed to worship their pantheon of deities as gods or as a god, but they are used as props or meditation devices to reach the higher universal divinity (call it what you want)

It is due to degredation of hindu religious tradition and ignorance (lack of education/reading) that hindu people worship deities.

[mloco]

then why do you deny their existence

[mloco]

then why do you deny their existence

Remember Guru Sahib said that there was no Hindu and no Musulman - because the religions had been bastardised.

[Inder Singh]

first of all did Guru sahib say there "was no Hindu or Mussalman" or i am not Hindu or musalman" i really am not sure could someone clarify.

Secondly i never denied the existence of Hindu gods, I merely proposed a different sort of existence.

Thirdly i don't understand how your question "then why do you deny their existence" follows on from the answer i gave in a previous post. I merely stated that Hindu gods can be worshipped as an aid to meditation, for Hindus, to realise the all encompassing divinty which is beyond shape or form, subject and object - the one true god. This does not mean they have to exist.

To clarify in another post i stated that Hindu gods can be looked at as metaphors for internal spriritual concepts, they can be viewed in this way by someone standing outside the tradition and analysing it, but someone who is active inside Hindu tradition will see their Gods as a means of aiding meditation, towards higher goals. Assuming they are not ignorant of the real teaching of their religion.

[x_suman_x]

niranjana thats a good explanation