Does listening to non-raag Kirtan effect spirtuality?

[Mystical]

Now adays ive come across quite a few non-raag kirtan, but raag kirtan is coming back and I love it personally. But the question i wanted to ask was does listening to non-raag Kirtan effect spirtuality? Or even have a different effect no us?

[gsingh00]

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[Guest]

I agree with Gurpreeet Singh !

[Niranjana]

With due respect to my brothers and sister above, this is rather a blanket statement - akin to what many "mona" and "sehajdhari" individuals like to state about the kakkars - i.e. it is not hair and kirpan that is important but the spirituality ("Rub kesha vich nahee, dil vich hai").

It seems that those who like Kirtan which is either commercial (i.e. Indian "Ragis" who are usually poor musicians but love to earn tax free earnings from Gurdwara Sangats by playing Bollywood rip off tunes) or enjoy the 'wicked' and 'happening' sounds of a peculiar style of kirtan clearly "invented" over the course of the past 50 or so years (usually with no trained musicians, hence the out of tune tablas being banged on with full force and very little in the way of any skill and 'besura' vocals over a folk tune meted out on the harmonium - alternatively this can also be with dholki and cheneh with the kirtan interpersed with random lines made by the leading vocalist, however I digress into another debate) are simply doing the same with other parts of our tradition and maryada - i.e. only the words matter and nothing else.

I have always found it strange that those items which are practically written in stone for all to see are usually ignored or passed over (i.e. The use of Raags as is the discussion here, the key themes of the Japji Sahib, Rehras and Sohila Sahib, the "Sri Mukhvak" of Guru Gobind Singh in the Dasam Granth etc etc) and instead those who claim to be the upholders of Tat Gurmat and the 'backbone' of the Panth have free reign to invent and propagate traditions and customs that never existed supporting them with questionable references and poor analysis, usually based on what one individual may have said or experienced, however contrary that may be to Guru-Maryada.

[vijaydeep Singh]

GURFATEH

In Paths also when Path says Gurbani,they are not as per Ragas.And Kathkars also may not use Ragas to explain.Actaul Rag is love to Akal.

[drawrof]

There was a tradition up until 100 years ago,

where the hukamnama/vaak was taken in the appropriate raag, as the santhya incorporated that....

something simple which we are not even aware of is the basic tune for

"satnaaam, satnaam, satnaam ji, vaaheguru, vaaheguru, vaaheguru ji"...it is in raag maajh.

Further, when people think of raag they may think of theatrics, that is not what constitutes raag or brings essence to it in gurmat. From my understanding the process of naad to anahad is what brings about the spiritual transformation where bani goes from nirgun to sargun. Everything starts from the dhuni of oangkar...I believe guru sahib has just allowed us to be expressive of it by choosing 60 raags (these include all variations of gauree) and allowing us to experience akaal/nirankar in those modes.

[gsingh00]

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[drawrof]

gurpreet_singh,

I know this was addressed as a question to Niranjana, but I wanted to share my own perspective on this, I hope I don't seem too intrusive.

There is a theory amongst some sufi's of god's qualities, which are deemed as jalaal-majestic and jamaal-beauty...It can be seen as yin/yang, shaktee/shaktaa....the whole point is that there are qualities which are manifest in creation which are attributed to waheguru.

The issue here becomes complex, because the importance of raag is what is at question.

Some believe raag is just music or tunes and gurbani is the 'tat' or nirankar 'jot'...my question to that is when gurbani mentions that bilawal is great, or sri raag is great etc...is the raag then not part of gurbani?.....or is it merely a metaphor...and when gurbani is a metaphor is it simple poetry telling us to meditate, or is it a divine incantation? from what I have gathered from listening to katha by bhai avtar singh about some old mahapurakhs (ie. baba bir singh naurangabad) used to do 51 japji sahibs a day (which makes sense as japji sahib has been considered to be a malamantar-something to recite all the time).

I completely, no doubt, agree that bani can be read without raag to have its affect as we are being touched by god and it isn't like there has to be a certain context, but as a holistic process I can't see raag not being important.....now I honestly don't have it in me to justify how...but this is one of my long term goals

[Niranjana]

Gurpreet Singh asked:

"So are you trying to imply that the essence of gurbani is found in the raag?"

I wouldn't normally answer a question with another question, but here it will perhaps illustrate my point from my earlier post, since what you are asking is no different to a 'mona' asking an Amritdhari Sikh:

"So are you trying to imply that the essence of Sikhi is found in keeping Kesh and a Kirpan?"

[Guest SAdmin]

Please read articles from this link http://www.gurmatsangeetproject.com/Pages/ArticlesPapers.asp .. They will give you good explanation of Ragas based Gurbani.

Writer of article mentions (Tilang Mahala 1; Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Page 722) :

As the Word of the Lord comes to me

So do I express it, O Lalo

Perhaps this is how Bani was revealed to the Guru Sahiban and they just faithfully documented it, in the Ragas that it was revealed to them.

You can read the whole article because it has some great points.

[Pheena]

With due respect to my brothers and sister above, this is rather a blanket statement - akin to what many "mona" and "sehajdhari" individuals like to state about the kakkars - i.e. it is not hair and kirpan that is important but the spirituality ("Rub kesha vich nahee, dil vich hai").

It seems that those who like Kirtan which is either commercial (i.e. Indian "Ragis" who are usually poor musicians but love to earn tax free earnings from Gurdwara Sangats by playing Bollywood rip off tunes) or enjoy the 'wicked' and 'happening' sounds of a peculiar style of kirtan clearly "invented" over the course of the past 50 or so years (usually with no trained musicians, hence the out of tune tablas being banged on with full force and very little in the way of any skill and 'besura' vocals over a folk tune meted out on the harmonium - alternatively this can also be with dholki and cheneh with the kirtan interpersed with random lines made by the leading vocalist, however I digress into another debate) are simply doing the same with other parts of our tradition and maryada - i.e. only the words matter and nothing else.

I have always found it strange that those items which are practically written in stone for all to see are usually ignored or passed over (i.e. The use of Raags as is the discussion here, the key themes of the Japji Sahib, Rehras and Sohila Sahib, the "Sri Mukhvak" of Guru Gobind Singh in the Dasam Granth etc etc) and instead those who claim to be the upholders of Tat Gurmat and the 'backbone' of the Panth have free reign to invent and propagate traditions and customs that never existed supporting them with questionable references and poor analysis, usually based on what one individual may have said or experienced, however contrary that may be to Guru-Maryada.

First of all I most certainly understand the passion in your words, so im not in disagreement with you but if you can please provide some thoughts to my inquiry.

Due to the "free reigns" (as you have suggested) that have been established and the wide spread of non-raag kirtan, do you suppose we create a hardrule to play only raag kirtan. If such a rule is established from these "upholders of Tat Gurmat" what of those who wish to sing yet are unable to sing in raag due to either their vocal limitations or the lack of teachers to teach the proper raag style of kirtan.

I personally know maybe 2-3 people who have the potential and/or ability to sing in raag out of the 15-20 or so individuals who do kirtan in my community. In your personal view do you feel that those 15 should not sing at all? I am not suggesting that these people are anti-raag, but they are unable to due to the obvious circumstances i mentioned above.

I suppose making do with what you have is not a possible solution, or is it?

[gsingh00]

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[Guest SAdmin]

The original question was " Does listening to non-raag Kirtan effect spirtuality?" ...

Ans: Spirituality comes when your nature becomes immaterial. Bhagat Kabir Ji explains extreme way of spirituality.

Kabeer Jee on Pannaa 1365

kabeer preeth eik sio keeeae aan dhubidhhaa jaae ||

bhaavai laa(n)bae kaes kar bhaavai gharar muddaae ||25||

Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.

You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

Sikhism believes that "Naam" is more important if you truly want to achieve spirituality.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2474

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=420

Now in this shabad http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=201 Guru Ji is praising Siree Raag but at the end he is giving instruction to abide by the rules of Guru.. You can read translation at http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/0083.html

[drawrof]

guys,

raag is a musical measure, I am not alluding to a style of singing such

dhrupadh, badda khayal, shota khayal, ghazal, etc....

The point here is that even simple tunes can be sung in raag...the correct one at that....satnaam, satnaam, satnaam ji....vaheguru, vaheguru, vaheguru ji is sung in raag maajh....why can't we learn the right sequence of notes and try to sing it in that...thats all I am saying (at a very rudimentary level)

[gsingh00]

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[Guest Javanmard]

The raag is EXPLICITLY mentioned in gurbani and it is hence OBLIGATORY to play it as it is Guru's hukam. Playing outside the inidicated raag is simply manmat. No discussion or grey zone here.

[Singh47]

Since banis are in Raag, it only makes sense to think that our “Raagis” should also sing in those Raags. Why else would Guru Jee write all those Banis in specific Raags? All those filmi tunes are ones own Manmat. We need to bring Raag Vidhiya back into mainstream Panthic practices. To sing in Raag is Gurmat, which is what we need to follow.

[Pheena]

The raag is EXPLICITLY mentioned in gurbani and it is hence OBLIGATORY to play it as it is Guru's hukam. Playing outside the inidicated raag is simply manmat. No discussion or grey zone here.

As is attending the Sangat of the Saints and bowing to them, yet people consider that to be manmat as well to bow to True Saints. Which is far more clearly expressed and made "OBLIGATORY" as you put it.

I have seen people weep in Vairaag while singing with this "Manmat"? Why did this Grace fall upon the Manmats of non-raag style yet full of love Kirtan?

[Guest]

I am with pheena on this one.

Here is my take on it overall,

At the end of day, from socio-religious perspective, Yes Kirtan in Raagas is very important in the panth so Gurmat Sangeet Vidya & Maryada started by our guru's kept alive...should be 100 percent promoted...!

However from the adhyatamic perspective, raags in kirtan is not needed to attach with Vahiguroo, only truest highest moment of pyaar, bairaag voice is more than enough to receive grace of Vahiguroo.

Sant Attar Singh Ji Mustanewale and Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Wale didn't sing kirtan in raags yet their voice travelled miles without any loud speaker, invoke pyaar, masti, naam rang among people even in hearts of katarpanthis and sinners.

[Guest Javanmard]

Guru Arjan's written words have more value than the voice of any sant...

[Guest]

I believe Sikhi is not black and white dharam , there is always exceptional area. Exceptional area/cases challenges one's mindset on many levels, it shows one's their own state in Sikhi.

[Guest Javanmard]

It's Maharaj's explicit words for God's sake!!!!

[Guest]

please share gurbani tuk along with ang number with us?

[gsingh00]

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[Guest Javanmard]

Doing paath is not the same as doing kirtan. When doing paath one recites a text, when doing kirtan one performs sacred music. Your argument is hence non valid!

Don't try and mix things up because you guys can't be bothered to learn rags! The raag is indicated at the beginning of most compositions: this clearly means that this is how it should be played. end of discussion.

If you're not happy with it battle it out with Maharaj as you guys seem to know the sacred art of kirtan better than Maharaj. Who on earth are we to decide that raags are not needed. They are indicated by Maharaj end of discussion.

If you were musicians you'd realise that you make no sense. It's like someone playing Mozart's concerto for piano with a trumpett when it's clearly meant for a piano.

Then some Admin Cut comes along and says: Mainun changa nahin lagda! Let's play it MY way!!!

Who on earth are we usurp Maharaj's authority!!!!

Sant or no Sant it doesn't matter!!!!!!!!

When it says Raag Gauri then it's Raag Gauri and NOTHING ELSE!!!

Maharaj knows better!