The NaamDhari claim-

[amardeep]

i was browsing through the net to find out more about the naamdhari sikhs, and found this:

http://namdhari.faithweb.com/granthpanth.htm

on this page, they try to refuse that Guru Maharaj ever gave Gurgaddi to the Guru Granth Sahib, and they use this verse to proove that there HAS to be a human Guru at all times:

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person(partakh), emancipates him. ||5||

the word partakh means:

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary

Adv. (from Sk. Pratyaksha) visible, obviour, evient, perceptible, clear, overt

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.d...%A8%96%E0%A8%BF

how do one refuse these claims?

i was searching through the books at the local Gurdwara recently, and also found a book by Dalip Singh called Guru Gobind Singh and Khalsa discipline, but it said Gurgaddi was only given to the Khalsa, and slammed Banda Bahadur Singh, so a friend of mine took it from me and told the Gurdwara librarian to throw it out..

[fatehsingh]

Namdharis claim this, Nihangs claim that, Singh Sabha claims another thing, 24 other million sects claim another thing. They all claim they are right and the other is wrong. If one wants to do research do it yourself and do it for yourself, don't drag your friends or uncles or relatives into it because then you are just listening to more bias. For all you know Dalip Singh could be right (I am not saying he is) and now your friend got the book thrown out of the library so all the knowledge is gone.

Do you see a pattern here? Be faithful to your Guru, whoever, whatever that is and if you don't respect the other person's religion, don't disrespect it either.

Happy Eid.

Fateh Singh

[amardeep]

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...ri&start=90

i have just spend the last 5 hours reading this debate..their arguments seem to be strong and valid....

are there any sikh, muslim, hindu or any other independant sources mentioning the Gurgaddi being given to the Guru Granth Sahib?

im not doubting the Granth to be my Guru at all, but i would still like to see it

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Read Sau Sakhi and Charan Pahil in there.It is water from cloath covering Guru Granth Sahib Ji diped in it.

Read Sarbloh Granth and 12 forms of Guru,Ten Masters,Guru Granth and Guru Panth.It was decided when Five beloved one gave baptism making Gobind Rai Ji As Gabind Singh Ji,Guru Panth and Guru Granth Sahib Ji are Guru Granth since they were made to enlighten the universe.

It is wrong to say that something newer happned at Nanded.

[amardeep]

none of the old eye witness account and puratan books say that Guru Jee took amrit from panj pyare....they all say he took Amrit himself...

[chatanga]

Fateh to everyone. For a possible answer ti this please read or research "AMARNAMAH" by a poet of Akali Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Darbar. Dhadi Nathmal was his name , he was an eyewitness to what happned at Hazur Sahib. This Amarnamah I have read a little peice of but nothing relating to gurgaddi to the granth. Also please dont be fooled by namdhari,they are liars and the panth has proved it many times, but their 2 mainliars chakrvati and alam both continued to carry on with thier Ram Singh is Guru stuff. Also I met a namdhari and i aked him what caste was Balak Singh? he was arora khatri. What caste was Akali Guru Gobind Singh? Sodhi Khatri. A sakhi of Bibi Bhani relates that Akali Guru Amardas gave her a boon that the Gurgaddi always remain in thier family. You may have heard of this sakhi. So if Akali Guru Amardas Ji gave this boon how could the gurgaddi have gone to Balak Singh who wasnt even the caste as Akali Guru Gobind Singh never mind being from the same family? The namdhari replied ive never heard that sakhi. " Of course you havent "I said. "Why would you be told that. It would negate everything the namdhari stand for."

Plus Ram Singh was true to the Khalsa Panth. The present namdharis are all anti panth congressis. they have never supported the sikh before or after 1984.

chatanga

[fatehsingh]

Yaawwwwn http://ik13.com/Rasses/SGPS%20Raas%201.pdf page 611 Bibi Bhani never received such a boon... weren't the Gurus Anti-Caste/Lastname as per the '(allegedly)mainstream' preachings? ... <yawn> this is getting really old and really tired and sad to say the least.... read it, believe it, don't believe it, who cares! y resort to name-callings? u got so many more followers (allegedly with the exact same beliefs), atleast act like u got some strength and security in faith with that number, rather than cursing and pulling beards in Godvaras... ah! blast it!.. I'm going back to sleep... Bhale Nindo Bhale Nindo, Bhale Nindo Log. Tann Mann Ram Piare Jog. ...ZzZZzzzZzzz

[Dynamic_Banda]

As communities integrate they appreciate one anothers differences and similarities, and as they disintegrate into like minded friendship clans and groups and jathabandi etc etc, they feel safe in that bubble and insecure to see or accept anything outside of it..

To be honest I dont care who gurgaddi was passed onto, from my experiences and own research I believe it was passed on to Aad Dasam Sarbloh Guru Maharaj, as well as the shashtar roop as well as the Khalsa which in my opinion is the Buddhadal and anyone who has earned their place in the khalsa through their actions.

If a muslim tells me Guru Nanak was no prophet I aint gonna argue, I just say fine, thats your belief, if a naamdhari tells me not to wear blue I aint gonna argue, I just say safe, your view and at this moment in time mine is to wear blue.

According to our actions and experiences each one of us will blossom in a different way, but as long as we are all blossoming in the garden of love for akaal, who cares what type of flower you become. Just be the most beautiful you can be, and maybe the great lord akaalpurakh himself will become pleased and pick you from the garden and hold you in his hands, even if its for a split second it will be worth it,

If however time is wasted trying to strangle the other flowers and become dominate, you either take the form of grass or weeds.. both of which are removed by the gardener and thrown away, and as they fade away they just become compost for those who remain..

Bhale Nindo, Bhale Nindo, Bhale Nindo log.

Small disclaimer- as mentioned the above is my view according to where I stand at this moment in time, may akaal protect and bless us all.

[chatanga]

Question for Dynamic

Are non budha dal sikhs khalsa?

chatanga

[Xylitol]

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person(partakh), emancipates him. ||5||

simple. when dasm dwar opens, our Guru creates a sareer of the 5 elements (and so is partakh) and appears before us to bless us with his Darshan. it's a high avastha, but there are many sikhs around who can confirm this, if they are willing to discuss the subject.

[amardeep]

does it not mean that the Guru(in form of the Panj Pyare) will come and bless the person with Khande da Amrit?

[Dynamic_Banda]

anyone who is on the right path is Khalsa (pure) but only the dal panth is khalsa panth .. in my opinion, the rest are sikh panth, khalsa panth may be the embodiment of the guru, however their purpose is to serve the sikh panth.. is one higher then the other? apeh guru apeh chela..

non of the above is backed up by some religious texts if it is please let me know, lol its just what I believe in my crazy head I was asked so I shared.

back to the post maybe it means any of the numerous forms of akaal will emancipate him, as after all the only true partakh form is akaal. which is everything yet one..

?

[Xylitol]

imo people who are pure are khalsa. not necessarily those of us who are on the path. khalsa could be from any religion according to this definition - but very very few would fit within this defintion. although we all call ourselves khalsa and commonly use it to refer to those people who follow khalsa panth - the path shown by Guru Gobind Singh ji.

[chatanga]

fateh

going back to the namdharis, they rely very heavily on Sau Sakhi. A lot of the gianais i have spoken to about sau sakhi, say generally its one of those tezts that have been heavily corrupted, but also there are many versions of it. However i have read about 30 sakhis of the copy that i have, and i didnt find anything out of the ordinary about it. Akal Sahai I will read the other 70 soon. Any other gurmukhs out there read sau sakhi? and what are you rcomments on it?

chatanga

[fatehsingh]

At the end of the day if you need a history book to tell you who your present Hazra Hazoor Guru is, then that really sucks to say the least. Namdharis see their Guru as the Akal Purakh Satguru, Nihangs see God in a different form, singh sabha folks see God in a different form, other people see God in other forms, Dhanna saw God in a rock, who are these 'Online-Gurmukhs' (where do I get a license? eGurseekz.com?) to judge who is right or wrong?

Let's think before blabbering. As for the lineage issue, these days anyone seems to be able to track their origins back to some point in history anyhow. So as long as someone has a good reason and evidence that satisfy their own minds to believe in what they believe in, why raise your blood-pressure for no good reason?

[chatanga]

Fateh to all

By your reasoning fateh singh, then people would revert back to those 5 groups who are khaarj from the panth dhirmalia ram raiye etc. These people claim the truth for themselves, so if we say dont follow these people, then why draw the line at others? the namdhari claim is the same as the Prithi Chands claim over Akali Guru Arjan Dev Jee. They too draw up the same lineage to prove that they were the rightful heirs to gurgaddi. So falsedom and false parchaar has to be combated, otherwise we will end up like the hindus, with a new sect arising evry day. Also the same about people the radha swamis., the sacha sauda mob, and bhaniara amongst countless others who are eating into the fabric of soceity.

Chatanga

[amardeep]

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?Sour...&Line_No=48

Arjan (Dev) transformed himself into Harigobind and sat majestically.

Now the Sodhi lineage has started and they all will show their selves turn by turn.

The Sikhs prayed and asked that they have seen the six Gurus (how many more are to come) .

The true Guru, the knower of the unknowable and seer of the invisible told the Sikhs to listen to.

The lineage of the Sodhis have been established on the sound foundation.

Four more Gurus will come to earth (yuga 2, yuga 2 i.e. 2+2=4)

-Bhai Gurdass vaara

i had it explained like this:

the remaining 4 Gurus were all linked to each other by father-son relation.. Guru Har Rai was the father of Guru Har Krishan Maharaj, and the later two Guru Maharajs Guru Tegh Bahadur was the father of Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj...therefore we have 2 categories of Gurus,....

[fatehsingh]

Fateh to all

By your reasoning fateh singh, then people would revert back to those 5 groups who are khaarj from the panth dhirmalia ram raiye etc. These people claim the truth for themselves, so if we say dont follow these people, then why draw the line at others? the namdhari claim is the same as the Prithi Chands claim over Akali Guru Arjan Dev Jee. They too draw up the same lineage to prove that they were the rightful heirs to gurgaddi. So falsedom and false parchaar has to be combated, otherwise we will end up like the hindus, with a new sect arising evry day. Also the same about people the radha swamis., the sacha sauda mob, and bhaniara amongst countless others who are eating into the fabric of soceity.

Chatanga

What difference would that make? Would your version of Sikhism cease to exist? If you believe your religion will cease to exist due to existence of other religions then what kind of faith do you really have? If you stay honest to yourself you will agree that more history in terms of writings as well as old artifacts has been tampered with or destroyed by the singh sabha folks who claim to be be from the tyar-bar-tyar camp than all other groups combined. In fact I cannot think of how Namdharis have 'eaten into the fabric' of ur society. Was it the Namdharis that white-washed frescos and put up bathroom tiles on walls of historic Gurdwaras? How many Namdharis go to the Gurdwara in which you are a committee member and FORCE and THRUST their views upon the people sitting there? When Namdharis are not even allowed to perform Kirtan or Ardas in most historic and non-historic singh sabha controlled Gurdwaras today and the very fact that Namdharis are quite distinct in appearance and can be spotted a mile away. So how are they 'eating into ur fabric'? To me it seems Namdharis have their own fabric of a very different material and color. Be honest and stay true to the topic. grouping Namdharis (or any other group) with any other group is unfair to say the least. There is much rubbish said about Namdharis, not that I expect you to try to find out the truth, but still it is at the very basic level a case of morality that you do not paint a group of people by just hearing one side of the story or magically 'assume', as many people have the tendency to do, such and such is true or false about them. Again, not that it makes a difference. Like I said before: Bhale Nindo Bhale Nindo Bhale Nindo Log. Tann Mann Ram Piare Jog.

[chatanga]

My version of Sikhi would not cease to exist. Why would Akali Guru Har rai Jee condemn Ram Rai for changing 1 word of Gurbani, when he could have equally said, " my version of sikhi will still exist" . The version of sikhi existing is not the debate here, but the shrewd people taking advantage of the fears of people and profiting from them. Duz your version of Sikhi exist still? even tho the Singh Sabha tileds over fresco that purport to be pictures of the Gurus? Again not that it makes a difference. Well to you maybe, if its against what you say. But then again you never try to listen to the opposite side.

[shaheediyan]

Veer Chatanga Ji,

Could you kindly explain 3 things to me please:

1 - The Namdhari tradition is 150 years old, older than many of the Jathaas claiming long lineages, there have been numerous generations of Namdhari born and raised in their version of the faith, that has been their education and their history, how is it the fault of these innocents that they beleive what they have been taught by their mother, father, teacher and Namdhari Guru? How can we condemn these people for no fault of their own?

2 - How about the putatan Sikh traditions the Namdhari have kept alive i.e. uncut NITNEM, simplicity (clothing etc), wedding costs (only they as a complete group still do not allow dowry and are happy to marry 15 couples in one go and save langar costs to the poorer families), Guru's kirtan tradition...etc.... should we not give them credit for having kept alive strictly some of our Guru's traditions? And should we not try and learn these traditions to share amongst the greater panth...

3 - What is your solution to "your" Namdhari problem?

Consider this, tomorrow, when Baba Ram Singh Singh Ji Namdhari does not return, and their is a chance that Namdhari want to assimilate back to the wider panth and accept Satguru as their Guru, will they do so if the wider panth is filled with hate against them for a decision made by someone 150 years ago?

Or would it be better to keep a civislised open dialogue with them and be confident in Satguru's kirpa, that Sat-Gursikh sangat will bring our brothers to Satguru's charan once again?

(The above are personal views, I am not debating Namdhari Guru Jagjit Singh Ji's legitimacy, I respect Baba Ji for his gigantic effort in keeping kirtan maryada (and other Gur-maryada) alive, but beleive in and am obedient only to my Satguru - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj).

[chatanga]

Dear Shaheediyan

You make some very valid point which i completely agree with about the namdharis. I know that they have certainly kept simplicity and raag kirtan an essential part of thier life, which i bow to. However they break or defy the tradition that began 150 years before they did, about the Granth being the Guru. Ram Singh had to go pesh at Akal Bunga and apologise for his supporters calling him guru. But these people still didnt stop. So either his supporters are telling the truth and Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh is lying, or Guru Maharaaj is telling the truth. I know which i'd rather believe.

[shaheediyan]

Veer ji,

The issue isn't about what you choose to believe, it's about looking at people as individuals, understanding their circumstantial upbringing and remaining focused on your own path whilst accepting Guru ji's hukum and diversity; and learning all you can from all the elements that have inherited different gun of our Kalgidar paatshah, whilst staying true to your own beliefs.

Vaheguru

[cybersingh]

Blah, Blah, Blah ..........this person is sikh, this person isn't..........how many times has this "discussion" went on? Let's discuss the teachings of GurBani.....isn't that what sikhi is about?........

Mehlaa 4, panna 314

updays je ditaa satguroo so suni-aa sikhee kannay.

The Sikhs listen to the Teachings imparted by the True Guru.

jin satgur kaa bhaanaa mani-aa tin charhee chavgan vannay.

Those who surrender to the True Guru's Will are imbued with the four-fold Love of the Lord.

ih chaal niraalee gurmukhee gur deekhi-aa sun man bhinnay. ||25||

This is the unique and distinct life-style of the Gurmukhs: listening to the Guru's Teachings, their minds blossom forth. ||25||

or how about from Asa Di Vaar, if you listen carefully.........

panna 465, mehlaa 1..........

sikhee sikhi-aa gur veechaar.

Contemplating the Guru, I have been taught these teachings;

How often do we do this? how often do we spend more time in Nitnem Banis and vahiguru jaap.......hardly any and yet we judge as to who is a true Gursikh and who isn't.........ask yourself this first and then speak otherwise its not worth it.............

[fatehsingh]

be quiet cybersingh.. ur an RSS HINDOO CONGRESSI AGENT!

(covers ears and shouts!) BBBRRRUUAAHH!! JO BOLE SO NIHAAAL!!! SAT SRI AKAAAAAL!!!!!

[Guest]

Veer ji,

The issue isn't about what you choose to believe, it's about looking as people as individuals, understanding their circumstantial upbringing and remaining focused on your own path whilst accepting Guru ji's hukum and diversity and learning all you can from all the elements that have inherited different gun of our Kalgidar paatshah, whilst staying true to your own beliefs.

Vaheguru

great post shaheediyan veer