Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

[chatanga]

fateh you say its been over 20 yeras , but try telling this t o the poeple who suffered. remember about 2 years ago, a widow from the 84 pogrom threatrended to jump from a high building cos she had no reconpensation from ravan govt. for 20 she struggled for justice, so why should we forget wat hapened to her? its easy for you to mock as you always seem to do, but im sure that Bhai Ram Singh taught how to sympathise with thiose people who needed help.

also for over 60 years the Jews have been hunting for the nazi killers of there people. udham singh waited for over 26 years b4 he avenged jallianwale. time has no relevance in things like this. i hope you understand this.

my vidya guru told me this sakhi , its for evry one but specifically for Fateh Singh:

At anandpur sahib one day Mata Jito Ji asked Guru Ji, over the last few days in your sleep you hand always moves to your talwar and grips it, then relaxes it, and this repats itself many times. what makes you do this?

Maharaj says (talking about Guru Gobind Singh here , not Sant Jarnail Singh) The screams of the widows and orphans over the centuries ring in my ears , who have lost thier beloved to the tyrants. This i cant bear and my hand moves to my talwar.

So the message here is of justice not spreading hatred. If we can say in 2007 that we dont need remmeber what hapned , why remember what hapned at malerkotla over 130 years ago?

chatanga

[fatehsingh]

Where did I (i.e. daas) say 'no need to remember'? Wasn't it me (i.e. daas) that wrote: 'knowing history is one thing, holding grudges is another'?

gosh I suppose I'm not writing clear enough.. a vidya guru is definitely needed here

Javanmard would u be my gurdev? I need specific lessons on how to throw a tantrum online and blame the jews for everything that's happening to me and yet be able to say 'im just remembering!' don't blame me it's blame the jews!

[chatanga]

exactly, you seem to say that we are holding grudges, but we arent. you are just being you i guess.

[fatehsingh]

hmm.. so the sentence 'remembering history is one thing, holding grudges is another' 'seems' to suggest that daas is converying the message that followers of maharaj r holding grudges and using terms like 'ravan sena' to refer to Indian govt? hmmm. interesting how those alphabets make up words that 'seems' to mean something isn't it?

[fatehsingh]

kam90210 I hope ur enjoying this!

[Kam1825]

you two love argueing with one another. Lets get back to the post.

What is the current tensions with SIkhs in Canada and the fallout from the Air India bombing at present? What is the media portaying as the image of the sikhs?

Over here in England i have been in contact with alot of authorities only two and worked with them on servaillence jobs, there are only two units that i know of that have led and are still following Sikhs likely of causing terrorist capability but the risk to the UK is minimal but more in India. The majority of jobs are on muslim and northern irish terorist links with links to other sleeper cells.

The situation is that Sikhs are not realy seen as terrorists here rather sepratists with minimal threat. Now i have never ben to Canada and do not know what the threat is there but i am guessing you a couple of pro khalistanis or general trouble makers grabbing some attention in order for the media to portray Sikhs in a negative manner!

[Guest]

What is the current tensions with SIkhs in Canada and the fallout from the Air India bombing at present? What is the media portaying as the image of the sikhs?

excellent question kam,

Here is the deal in canada thats is what i think, others who live in canada can add or correct me if i m wrong- sikhs here are pretty falls into two extremes- one pro sant bhindranwale, pro babar khalsa pro khalistan anti bharamins and other extreme is anti khalistan because violence against them by khalistani during 1984 because lack of co-operation from their side or simply not agreeing with their side, this extreme is tottaly put off by sikhi- they usually are anti chola/bana wearing singhs, anti kirpan, anti kesh with attitude its inside what matters, anti maryada - sitting on ground etc.

Both extremes are wrong.

You wont find people with mixture as in - pro khalistan movement yet fully against unjustified force...pro sant bhindranwale idea of sovergeinty yet denouncing, condeming other soo called khalistan groups have used unjustified force which have killed loads of innocent civilians whether it revolves around contoversial figures like talvinder singh parmar or ajaib singh bagri.

Since there is no middle ground of people in majority who are neither fanatics nor pacifist, its very easy for media take sides towards as they put it moderates which in this soceity means- pacificism/ you just call 911 if you see - rape happening infront of your eyes instead of doing something physically to stop it, that be off course consider as a crime you had no right to be involved, let police deal with it kinda attitude.

Media here generally are anti minorities.

Actually cannot blame fully on media either, when our sikh community leaders can hardly speak english goes to media with an attitude - talvinder singh parmar is an hero, i can say you are terrorist anyone call anyone terrorist with out any proof...instead of creating an intellectual dialogue with the media and correct them- struggle for khalistan/sovergeinty is not as black and white as they think and give glorious examples from the history explained the role of sant-sipahi, give examples how khalsa have in the past denounced violence, condemns violence and only use justified method to get justice and give examples from anmesty international human rights abuse report against india.

quite a bit of damage has been done to the image of sikhs here in canada by bias media or shall i say- naive media, i dont think media should be fully blamed for blunders our soo called khalistan leaders who stuck in one extreme have made.

Its about time canadian sikhs should hold some accountablity, acknowledgement in media yes we had sikh fanatics within ourselves, fanaticism is not a sikh problem but Global problem instead of rejecting the news by playing the usual trumphet- oh look at that kim bolan, terri melveski wrote a bias article, oh they are ought there to get us(sikhs again). Lets stop playing the victim role and do something productive. Victim role as our maha panthic sevadars - arrogrant mini akaal takth wanna be police panthic weekly are doing- http://www.panthic.org/news/131/ARTICLE/3250/2007-04-25.html

These hypocrites are quoting from the book-soft target whenever it suits them, when you ask them what does it this book think about "Talvinder Singh Parmar"...they zip their mouth.

[fatehsingh]

Glad you enjoyed it kam90210. All the phal of years of daas listening to maharaj's pavittar lectures.

in the post 9/11 world, there's nothing more exciting or gets more rating for the media than a guy with a turban delivering hate speeches and preaching the ideology of separatism. Be very careful.

Wasn't there a Canadian politician bloke who just got the job or something in the congress there? What is he doing in the light of all this? Or is he just another member of the 'Ravan Sena'? LOL!!!

Totally agree with N30Singh and that's what I've been trying to say, sadly without success getting through to the 1 expectable audience, Sikhs are most vulnerable because of the conspicuous attire and the sheer stupidity of farengis in America and Canada. More diplomatic personalities are needed not some dumbnut barbarians. I say vote N30 Singh for 2008 or whenever the next election is!

[Kam1825]

I totally respect Sant Jarnail Singh Ji as a great vidvaan as their katha is on the same level as Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji. With regards to the incidents of 84 i will never have a good viewpoint of it as i was not there and every source is biased pro or anti sant jarnail singh. God knows the truth and all that happened was within his will. If God did not see it as correct i guess it would never have happened.

My only view is that these so called freedom fighters, liberators or terroists are fighting for a land called Khalistan. Where will the borders be for this land? Will i need to get a visa if i wanted to visit Patna Sahib and hazor Sahib from the indian government or is this all part of Khalistan? Who will run the country, Buddha Dal, Sant Samaj, Panthic Morcha? More likely Badal an his son! Will people of other faiths including those who are from minority sikh groups such as radhaswamis, namdharis and needharis be protected against the fanatics and be allowed to practice their ideals freely without risk of death or torture? The idea of a sikh homeland has not really been thought out and the practicalities are flawed for someone like me who gets to the punjab then ends up all over india to do a yatra. It is also flawed as you will have corruption , we dont have a leader like maharaja ranjit singh who let all of any faith live in happiness.

I can tell you of so many young sikhs who wear a bana, carry loads of weapons, wear big sarbloh kara and have aad chands on their dastaar but at the same time cant tell you the names of the 10 gurus, the four sahabzadas, the panj piaray. Even worse dont know the first 5 pauris of the Sri Jap Ji sahib by memory. However if i ask them about the events of the 13 sikhs martyred in 1978 or the events of 1984 they could write books on it. Fanaticism and the amount of time spent in the gurdwara weekly on talking about the atrocities in 1984 and after boils the blood of the youth and brings them towards what i would call a single minded view of fanaticism. The kathakaars are told to talk about 1984 and recent events repeatedly preventing many from learning the real path of the divine Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Why dont the sikhs who want a seperate homeland first learn about the Guru and recite the name of God through the methods of Vaikhre, Madhma Para and Pasanti. Teach the youth about the divine Lord, his/her will, becoming one with the divine and overall becoming the khalsa.

Khalistan without the Khalsa will not exist so they need for these liberation groups for militant fighting is seen personally by myself as new use. If we are not carefull there will be no difference between the sikh fanatica and the islamic fanatics in the future.

again there are my two pennies for another thread

[Guest]

Here is the download link for e-book- soft target, go all the way down to index, look for talvinder singh parmar, read all the pages related to parmar, draw your own opnion on this matter:

Right click and save target as:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Text...get%20ebook.pdf

[Guest Javanmard]

Reason why l don't interact with the community anymore.

[Kam1825]

javanmard i think you interacting with the community would be good as at least eh pro khalistani who has no knowledge about the concept of sikhis will gain some long overdue knowledge which will serve them well once you have spoken to them.

The community needs talks more on the relevance of sikhi and knowledge of spiritual texts of all faiths and languages for their own jeevan. Singhs like you should be in the community preaching the gospal of Nanak instead of the half wit commitee member taking about the atrocities of 1984 boiling the blood of the public but at the same time financing his house and trips abrouad with the money from the shaheedi fund!

[Guest Javanmard]

I tried it for four years in the UK, was stopped in any way possible by Khalistanis, Sanatanis and other types of ignorant people. If people don't want to listen then fine: I never ask to speak. If each time I get invited I get prevented from speaking then fair enough. A man has to learn to respect the choices of a community. If "Sikhs" can't appreciate their own spirituality that's their choice. I have plenty of Shi'a brothers and sisters who appreciate the message of Guru Nanak and who have invited me on numerous occasions not only to speak at their centers (such as the ICAS by Prof. Bahmanpour) but also for 2 hours on their TVchannels (AhlulbaytTV). Not once have I come across a young Sikh asking me how to practise nam simran whereas I have been honoured to teach it to dozens of Shi'as who have benefited alot from the wisdom of gurbani. It has helped them become better Shi'as which is wonderful. Maharaj's grace isn't restricted to people from East Panjab, it belongs to all humanity.And at least they treat scholars with respect...Even with some scholars among them with whom I openly disagree there is mutual respect for men of knowledge.Mind you the shari'ati ones among them are a pure pain in the chittar admin cut I guess that's just cultural due to Iranians (Iraqis and Lebanese as well to some degree) being in general among the most well mannered and cultured people on earth. Panjabi Shi'as are warmhearted but like their Sikh counterparts...not too strong on the culture and intellectual side. If people want emotional shouting and stories of 1984 shahids and lectures on being vegertarian and women wearing keski...then they deserve to have them. I personally believe everyone has the right to chose his/her own hell. If that's what the Panjabi Sikh community wants...then fine!

[Xylitol]

"You wont find people with mixture as in - pro khalistan movement yet fully against unjustified force...pro sant bhindranwale idea of sovergeinty yet denouncing, condeming other soo called khalistan groups have used unjustified force which have killed loads of innocent civilians whether it revolves around contoversial figures like talvinder singh parmar or ajaib singh bagri. "

I have to disagree. There seem to be a lot of people, who like me, are very pro Sant ji and against unjustified use of force. The thing is, that when 'shaheed singhs' are displayed people automatically have this assumption that they fought their fight inline with Guru Sahib's ideals. I'm aware that many people in sikh saroop did not, but there also were a lot who did, and I celebrate the ones who did.

Although, your quote would very completely seem to hit the nail on the head wrt teenage youth. many of them have no jeevan, and act like their all so hardcore (gangsta) but totally lack the sant side. I don't see much wrong parchaar wrt Khalistan where I live, but I guess where you live is different. I don't see promotion of the sipahee side only in prachaar at the local youth academy, but many of the teenage youth are like that. I think in their case, it has something to do with their age.

And the fact that they listen to gangster rap which glorifies violence without morals while at the same time making it seem 'honourable'.

Btw, N3O, which city do you live in ?

[Guest]

xylitol,

i live in toronto, actually my above post talks about sikhs in BC, Canada then Ont, Canada. Thinks here much better than BC. As you said there are lot of people who like you are pro sant ji but against unjustified use of force, agreed, but still not in majority because they are not visible to media or they dont approach media to set the record straight, thats the problem. People who can hardly speak english ie- comitee member of gurdwara approach media and think they are representative of whole sikh community in BC instead of holding an intellectual dialogue with media and educating them they go on about how talvinder singh is not terrorist, he is hereo, i can say you are terrorist,, blah blah.. This is a serious problem, youths in BC like yourself have to sort things out and set the record straight. I have seen media people like to get both sides, but our soo called leaders in BC in the gurdwara dont return their phone calls, tell me how silly that seems to wider canadian community?

Kim Bolan, terry meliveski have done damage to sikh image no doubt but as they say it takes two to tango, our soo called sikh community leaders in BC have equally done damage to sikh image.

[Xylitol]

K, good point. I'm personally rather disappointed with our Gurdwara committees. Especially when I compare how much they're doing to how much places llike SFSikhCentre are doing. amazing.

btw, do you really think Talvinder singh parmar or ajaib singh bagri did all that? I don't know a heck of a lot about them. I used to have zero interest in Sikhi until a few years ago.

[Guest]

Ajaib singh bagri is non-guilty, i respect judge's verdict of non-guilty charges against him. However in civilized soceity and as far as sikh values are concern there is no room for his hate speech he made in New York Madison Sqaure garden on killing 50,000 hindus, there is recording for this and can been seen on cbc air india video cover up video 1 and video 2. There is absoultely no justification regarding this act. This should be condemned on international level, shouldnt be taken lightly.

You can read soft target book regarding some of shocking revealtions on talvinder singh parmar, ie- bhai fauja singh ji's wife accused him for hijacking the peaceful movement. Soft target book has became such a reliable source for sikhs these days, they are pretty quick to use this book as reference yet hesitant to discuss some of fine issues in there because it challenges their beleif, they - panthic weekly guys quoting only stuff from there which suits their agenda, quote stuff on talvinder singh parmar from that book they wont because obviously that stuff is unreliable, same typical home made cook recipe articles just pick and chooose..that just shows their crediblity.

[Xylitol]

We all know about panthic weekly

I remember hearing/reading some things on Parmar, but it was some time ago.

[Guest]

there was a fantastic analysis of the movement written by bhai Kulbir Singh on tapoban.org

Xylitol veer ji,

can you please find the post on tapoban, i tried it but had no luck. I very much like to read this analysis.?

[Xylitol]

Sorry ji, I looked but can't find it. I read it a long time ago.

Here's a list of postings on movement shaheeds:

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1...204&t=63204

but they are just stories of their life and shaheedi.

[Niranjana]

"No evidence Sant ji was involved in torture of Kaur. and by the way, indira attacked the sikh kaum, so she did attack the family of her bodyguards."

So I guess we can supposed Indira Gandhi herself came and posted the placards around the Golden Temple concerning Chinda and Baljit Kaur's death to "frame" the Taksal right???

[chatanga]

so niranjana , by your reckoning if Sant Jarnail Singh didn t put up the placards only indira could have? couldnt the other Sikhs who were wiv Sant Jarnail Singh have done it?

[Niranjana]

chatanga - the post above follows from my earlier comments that someone within the Taksal following Sant Jee was clearly responsible for this act, either way, we see no condemnation forthcoming from Sant Jee, hence by implication his endorsement of what was effectively happening under his nose...either way, the Taksal are clearly linked to the killings...

[Xylitol]

But Sant Ji isn't. Not everyone in Taksaal was under their command. Their were spies within the singh camp. That's why general Shabeg Singh ji had to redraw the positions just prior to the attack.

[gsingh00]

Neo, what happened to 'opnions based on your research are not necessarily facts but very much an theory at this point. Proven or non-proven theory cannot be confirmed fully over forums...' ?

The fact of the matter is that no one on this forum knows 100% what happened with the killing of baljit kaur, and if anyone thinks that it was ordered or even suggested by Sant Jarnail Singh, they should go talk to someone that was actually there and find out the true story. Also, who says there wasn't any condemnation? Since when is everything public knowledge?