Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

[chatanga]

about the killing of Surinder Singh Sodhi, Sant Jarnail Singh said that i feel my right arm has been removed. Why do youthink that he would condemn the killings of those people involved in killing Sodhi?

chatanga

[Xylitol]

Excellent point Gurpreet Singh.

http://www.davindersingh.ca/2004/10/reflec...y-gurdwara.html

Here's a series of 3 articles on the tables and chairs incident. posting it here since it's related to the corruption of some movement 'leaders' here in canada and the split in our community created by that.

[Niranjana]

Chatanga, perhaps re-read some sakhis and history relating to Guru Gobind Singh and the use of arms and warfare and under what circumstances he would use them and to what extent...

[Niranjana]

Gurpreet Singh states "The fact of the matter is that no one on this forum knows 100% what happened with the killing of baljit kaur, and if anyone thinks that it was ordered or even suggested by Sant Jarnail Singh, they should go talk to someone that was actually there and find out the true story."

Granted, however to date those asking the questions aren't claiming to know anything 100%, hence why the questions are being asked...

He then moves on to say "Also, who says there wasn't any condemnation?"

Please kindly provide some view, note or lo and behold, evidence to the contrary...

and finally he asks "Since when is everything public knowledge?"

...no one is suggesting it is...again, why we are asking questions in order to learn something!

b.t.w, it is interesting to note that those who are frequently described as "chardi kala" Singhs who were "there at the time" or have some form of "maha avastha", can rarely agree upon the facts themselves - to deviate from the main topic, one example would be the relationship between the so-called "backbone of the panth" (as dubbed by the Tapoban forum contributors re: AKJ and Taksal)...it is common knowledge that there was friction to say the least between the likes of Sant Jee, Sukhdev Singh Babbar (who opened fire on Sant Jee), Talvinder Singh Parmar (with the AKJ and Babbar Khalsa founders, not to mentioned Sukhdev Singh Sukha himself)...this is the Taksal and AKJ only...let's not forgot the friction between them and those who had a handle on the SGPC at the time (other than the Taksal)...

[Malwe Da Sher]

I heard there was a rift between between Sant Jarnail Singh and Sukhdev Singh Babbar, however i have not previously heard of sukhdev singh opening fire on Sant ji. I would appreciate if you could kindly elaborate Niranjana Bhai.

Neo-Babbar supporters tend to play down the drift and also like to ignore the fact that the Babbar Khalsa left during the attack. The reason most often given is that Sant Jee told the Babbars to leave so that someone else could carry on the fight.. if this firing incident did happen than this simple story of continuing the fight seems a bit hard to believe.

the Taksal-AKJ relations that people think of being strong are due to youth (Outside of India, Canda, UK etc) associated with AKJ being friendly with youth from Taksal and vice versa. There is no such evidence of a friendly relationship between the two in India. Im not saying the harbour an anamosity towards each other, just saying some poeple need to remove false fantasies from their head.

On the contrary the Taksalis in India and Nihang Singhs tend to get on pretty well and have been working together pretty closely, particualry on Dasam guru Granth Sahib issues. I wonder if Taksalis in UK would ever extend a hand of friendship to the UK Nihangs... lol.

[Niranjana]

Veera,

There is an extensive thread on Tapoban discussing the Babbars opening fire on Sant Jee, alternatively, older members of the Sangat who associate or link themselves with the Taksal will confirm this, unless of course they are trying to “keep panthic unity†as it was pointed out to me by one ardent UK Taksali.

Neo-Babbar supporters also like to ignore many facts about their revered personalities (i.e. Sardars Parmar and Sukha), however most of these are common knowledge today, as is the relationship between the wife of the late Bhai Fauja Singh Shaheed and Talwinder Singh Parmar, which suffice to say was less than amicable and likewise between her and Sant Jee.

You are quite right about the false fantasies in the minds of younger members of the AKJ and Taksal in western countries, particularly those of the second generation, one only has to look at the some of the violence in Canadian Gurdwaras over issues such as the Shaheedi of Sant Jee to note the truth about the supposedly “friendly†relations between these two groups.

Taksalis in the UK were ‘extended a hand of friendship’ by the UK Nihangs and their supporters back about five years ago – one may recall, that Nihang Niddar Singh’s initial works cited Taksal as the fifth sampradha, this view was also apparent on the old black and white sarbloh.com website (i.e. pre-Niddar Singh) and even espoused by other members of online Sikh forums who were then (and in some cases, still are) studying under prestigious institutions in pursuit of their PhD or equivalent, whether or not, these individuals now still have any regard for each other is immaterial, the fact was that the UK Sanatani world (from the academics down to the boys in blue on the street) all regarded the Taksal as one of the five original sampradhas, as a result of which, many Taksalis in the UK (and abroad) chose to align themselves with the Sanatan Sikhs and UK Nihangs and joined the anti-AKJ and anti-SGPC bandwagons…of course this all took a turn for the worse when it was discovered that the Taksal itself is barely a few hundred years old! Again pointing to the supposedly ‘panthic’ relationship between the AKJ and Taksal!

[chatanga]

they arent the same according to who?

[Niranjana]

chatanga - what exactly don't you understand, I realise your command of English is perhaps limited given your previous posts (re: sentence construction and spelling), however what exactly don't you understand?

[Malwe Da Sher]

Thanks for that Narinjana Bhai, your post got me thinking...

...Everyone asks why the Nihang Singhs were not there when the attack, no one asks why the Babbars were there and fled.

Although Nihang Singhs Dals as a whole were not 'officially' involved, many Nihang Singhs, including farladharis, who were at harimandir sahib fought against the Indian army once they attacked. Nihang Singhs that were there atleast stood their ground and fought, it appears the same cannot be said for the infamous Babbar Khalsa.

there are many things neo-kharkhoo wannabes overlook or make cover ups for to try and justify.

- Bibi Amarjeet Kaurs relationship with Sant Ji

- Babbar Khalsa fleeing during the Indian Army attack

- The unharmonious relationship between Sukhdev Singh and Parmar (most people support them both)

- Where were the Nihang Singhs in 1984... where were the AKJ, the SGPC, SIkh Missionary... etc?

- Same as Nihang Singhs, Taksal entirely accept the legitimacy of Aad Dasam and Sarbloh Guru Granth Sahib.

- The killing of many innocent people in Punjab at the hands of 'freedom fighters'

- The Babbar Shooting on Sant Jarnail Singh

- Many of not most Taksalis in India to consume Sukhnidhan and some also eat Jhatka.

- Moolmantr, raagmala, kakkar, sant smaj, legitimacy of granths, are just a few major issues that Taksal and AKJ differ on.

I think these points what suit Sikh Sangat where young Sikh 'Hoodies' could address them to the best of their ability... which would be to accuse the poster of trying to split the panth. And destroy their made up 'Ekta'

[Malwe Da Sher]

http://www.sikhcoalition.org/SantJarnailSingh.pdf

Good idea to read from page 38-40 (regarding relationship betweens Babbars and Sant Ji)

Bottom of Page 57 gives details of the Babbars kicking Sant Ji out of the Niwas

[Xylitol]

"There is an extensive thread on Tapoban discussing the Babbars opening fire on Sant Jee, alternatively, older members of the Sangat who associate or link themselves with the Taksal will confirm this, unless of course they are trying to “keep panthic unity” as it was pointed out to me by one ardent UK Taksali. "

Could you please post a link to this thread, ji? I searched for it but couldn't find it.

Interesting book. some qoutes:

According to India Today206: 'Whereas Bhindranwale has publicly disowned each act of the extremists, the Babbar Khalsa openly claim credit for most of these, barring the killing of Hindu bus passengers and that of Atwal.'

"In one of his speeches, Sant Bhindranwale said209: 'Day before yesterday, a farce was enacted here at Akal Takhat. After getting some tape-recording done by someone, he was called to the Akali stage and made to say that Bhindranwala was conspiring to get him killed. His name is Sukhdev Singh; people often call him Sukha. They say that I have hatched a conspiracy to kill him.' "

When some Punjabi newspapers published information concerning death

of Sikh young men, most of whom died while in police custody or in ‘fake’ encounters, the

Punjab Government approached the Press Council of India to enlist its co-operation against its

own members, the Punjabi newspapers. The Council, assuming that the official view of the

situation in Punjab was the correct one, dutifully ignored the protestations of its members and

recommended that the Government set up proper arrangements to provide authentic information

to the press211. The Government not only continuously harassed newspapers like the daily Ajit,

the Akali Patrika, and Charhdi Kala but also regularly fed disinformation to the newsmedia. A

Times of India article212 revealed: ‘Often and unwittingly... journalists fall prey to the

government disinformation which suavely manages to plant stories... The confusion gets

compounded when government agencies also resort to feeding disinformation on letterheads of

miltant organizations since there is no way of confirming or seeking clarifications on press notes

supposedly issued by militants who are underground and remain inaccessible most of the time.’

The writer went on to report: ‘A group of journalists, including myself, had called on the former

governor to lodge a protest against the registration of a case against the Times of India and the

Punjabi daily Ajit, last January. After hastily apologising and promising to withdraw the case

“shortly” (that the case was ultimately never withdrawn is a different story), the governor had

sought the journalists’ co-operation in tackling the militants. “Don’t publish press notes that

preach violence against an individual, an organisation, etc. but you are free to publish their press

notes that encourage inter-gang rivalry, “ he said, adding “We have drawn up a plan for

disinformation to be issued on the militants’ letterheads. We hope that you will co-operate”.’

[Guest]

Thanks for your suggestion Malwa da Sher, i ll split samparda posts into different topic shortly.

[Malwe Da Sher]

Cheers N30 yaar

[Guest]

check this out guys:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/...bc-dosanjh.html

these soo called mp who call himself moderate sikh as he put it need a excuse to add more fuel to the fire. May be he got personal hostility towards bana wearing singhs because of beating he didnt deserve by sikh fanatics/thugs.

Yes our incompotent gurdwara community leaders shouldnt be using contoversial figures like - parmar as their hero in the sikh parade. But whats there to investigate? I dont think organizers who put up his pictures, their move was malicous but they are just misinformed on contoversial figures like parmar. i ask again whats there to investigate?

ehmi bas, apni janta hor koi kam ni, larri chalo-marri chalo. !

[Niranjana]

JDS,

You raise the some items which I feel in the interests of discussion and debate are worth looking into on this thread. I have seen similar items raised on other forums (usually by either pro-AKJ supporters or pro-Taksal lobby) which either end up favouring of the two groups or are unwound by the moderators of the discussion forum to the same effect under what effectively is little more than illusionary ‘ekta’, in either case the discussion never actually occurs and all that results is name calling and defamation of those considered to be suppressing this supposed ‘ekta’.

Let’s hope we can discuss here objectively on the points you raised, my initial comments are provided below.

1. Bibi Amarjeet Kaurs relationship with Sant Ji

This is well known, despite what interviews by ‘panthic’ press reports may suggest 20 years after the incidence occurred.

2. Babbar Khalsa fleeing during the Indian Army attack

Again, as suggested above, this is usually ‘explained’ as a directive from Sant Jee to ‘continue the movement’, however it makes little sense in view of the actions of both groups up to this point in time, particularly given the Babbars opening fire on Sant Jee and then supposedly taken orders from him!

3. The unharmonious relationship between Sukhdev Singh and Parmar (most people support them both)

Many have alluded to the power struggle that existed within the BKI organisation and both these names feature high on the list. Some have “speculated†(unless anyone can provided proof to the contrary) that Parmar’s killing were partially the result of Sukhdev Singh’s leaking information of his whereabouts in a bid to retain control of the Babbars himself.

4. Where were the Nihang Singhs in 1984... where were the AKJ, the SGPC, SIkh Missionary... etc?

This is a valid question. The supposed 96 Crore Guru ki Laadli Fauj was no where when the proverbial hit the fan. The rationale provided to date has been that the AKJ, Taksal and Missionaries were already at heads within the Gurdwara complex and each fighting for control of the SGPC, so the Nihangs would have found practising their sukha and jatka traditions difficult (even though the Sikh Rehit Maryada is fine on the meat topic!), however I see no relevance of having to consume these items and undertaking the supposed role of the “Guru ki Faujâ€. In fact, we find many supposed “Nihangs†being discovered as police agents and the like during this period.

Equally valid is the other question - were the AKJ, the SGPC, Sikh Missionary? The SGPC is simple enough to address since this is not a group but a management body which at the time was under control of the Bindranwale DDT (hence the changes in the Maryada that were implemented). But the real question should be, where are they now? All of these groups have several headquarters in Punjab, receive countless of Dollars and Pounds from their supporters in Canada and the UK, yet Punjab is the very region where people are shedding their Kesh on a regular basis and/or choosing to follow ‘heretical’ sects…could it be that these people are simply the reaction to the 20 odd years that the AKJ, Taksal and Missionaries had their reign over Punjab?

5. Same as Nihang Singhs, Taksal entirely accept the legitimacy of Aad Dasam and Sarbloh Guru Granth Sahib.

This has very little to do with anything. Other groups such Nanaksar, Namdharis, Sant Samaj and many parts of the “mainstream†accept the writings of Guru Gobind Singh. Claims on forums that “neo-sikhs†and the SGPC have disowned the Dasam Granth are a little too generic, it is only a certain group of “Bhasaurias†who have done this, there are plenty of official documentation from the Akal Thakt attesting to the legitimacy of the Dasam Granth.

6. The killing of many innocent people in Punjab at the hands of 'freedom fighters'

Whilst there have been clearly “staged†incidents to malign the Sikhs, those who claim (as frequent posts can be found on certain websites) that ALL such incidents were staged and the ‘freedom fighters’ were angels are clearly living in a dream world.

7. The Babbar Shooting on Sant Jarnail Singh

As per (2) above.

8. Many of not most Taksalis in India to consume Sukhnidhan and some also eat Jhatka.

Again, what relevance has this to anything? The mainstream panth accepts non-halal “meatâ€, it is only the legacy of the “Sanatanis†who have made eating meat or not eating meat into an elaborate religious ritual and requirement, hence why most modern Jathas that the pro-Sanatan lobby relate back to 3 of their 4 ‘sampradhas’ have pro-vegetarian quirks (i.e. Sant Samaj and part of the Taksal, who the Sanatanis link back to Nirmalas, Namdharis who they link back to Udasis, the AKJ who they link back to Namdharis and in any event are purely a neo-movement on the fringe of modern Sikh Society in any event).

9. Moolmantr, raagmala, kakkar, sant smaj, legitimacy of granths, are just a few major issues that Taksal and AKJ differ on.

As per (5) above, these deviations from undisputed tradition (re: kakkars, raagmala) are not the works of the mainstream panth but relate to the fringe element of Bhasaurias that still exist on the fringes of our community despite their considerable online presence and propaganda.

[Guest]

just quoting from:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=27203

Dear Singhs

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Sorry to say that but i think we are the most selfish people on earth that is why we lost so many lives since 1984 and gained nothing. The people who are talking nonsense about Jathedar Talwinder Singh know nothing about the khalistan movement. It is so easy to sit in Foriegn countries and type on the computer , the people in Punjab and the families of jujaharoo singhs know who Talwinder singh was . If you believe in the books read open secrets written by muloya krishina dhar he writes most of the singhs were bought by goverment of india. I am from Baba Gurbachan Singh Manochahal's family and we lost about 40 family members and so many kharkoo leaders use to call baba ji an agent of goverment, akali's called Sant Bhindaranwale an agent of goverment , police labeled Bhai Sukhdev Singh a multimillionaire and blamed him that he had bad releations with Bibi Jawahar Kaur of Nabha. Sukhdev Singh's first wife and three childeren live in Canada.

People don't have a clue about Talwinder Singh, He was the first to punish the Narakdhari's with his jatha which included Wadhawa Singh, Tarsem Singh, Sewa Singh , Kulwant Singh Nagoke , Amarjit Singh Daheru, Surinder Singh Nagoke and after the police put 10 lakh of prize to arrest Talwinder Singh dead or alive, Sant Bhiandaranwale told him to leave India. After he left his father 80 yrs old was tortured , his father in law , brother-in laws were tortured . his house in Village Panchta was smashed by police and still is. Bhai Sukhdev Singh and other singhs joined Babbar khalsa way after Talwinder Singh started it. He spent over 2 yrs approximately in German jail.

He served his whole life to khalsa panth but people doubt him . I am not mad but I feel so sorry for who don't know about him.

Labeling somebody an agent is so easy it is beeen happening since 1978:-

1. Akali's blamed Sant Bhindranwale an agent of congress.

2. Bhai Sukhdev Singh and other singhs never got along with any of the taksalis they always blamed that sant ji planned to kill Fauja Singh, they blamed that sodhi and companion singhs were aracterless people and all this was published in the newspapers at that time. They almost fired at each other so many times.

3. Bibi Amarjit Kaur (wife of Fauja Singh) always blamed Sant Bhianranwale for everything. She even said to the press after june 1984 that it was all Sant ji's fault.

4. Parmjit Singh Panjwar and Wadhawa Singh have been blamed for drug traffcking.

5. Indian press said so many time that singhs raped women at DARBAR SAHIB during 80's.

6. Kps gill claims that all the singhs were killers in his book.

If somebody wants to know about Jathedar Talwinder Singh that what he really was contact Bhai Gian Singh Leel (singh who punished longowal).

If you believe that bagri 's speech was wrong then Sant Jarnail Singh did so many speeches like that then the whole movement was wrong.

By writing all examples i am not saying that those singhs were wrong because to me who sacrifices hisher life for a good cause is a great person. I respect all the saheed singhs because my soul is still alive .

The biggest reason that most people or so called good jeevan people never got along with Talwinder Singh because he always supported AKal Takhat Sahib's marayada not Akj's or Taksali's .

For your info in march saheedi diharsa of Talwinder Singh was held in Punjab. So i would request before balming anybody look at yourself that can you leave your luxrious life in european or north american countries and die for panth like Talwinder Singh. I feel so ashmed of my brothers who respect the saheeds like that.

Khalsa panth(we) needs nobody's certificate about our Saheed Singhs.

Bhul chuk muaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki Fateh

[kirpa_karo]

"shaheed ki jo maut hai vo qaum ki hayat hai, hayat ko hayat hai vo maut vi hayat hai"

[Niranjana]

“The people who are talking nonsense about Jathedar Talwinder Singh know nothing about the khalistan movementâ€

This is very true, given the most of his younger supporters, particularly in Canada (such as those who use his self-styled propaganda postcard as their avatar), were not even born at the time and simply see him as one who is “Sikh†and “pumping†akin to their definition of “chardi kala†– quote: ‘Something with Gurmat which gets you pumping’. Unquote. By contrast, those who have provided formal commentary on Parmar, such as the authors of “Soft Target†clearly do know something about the Khalistan movement given they were researching it!

“It is so easy to sit in Foriegn countries and type on the computer , the people in Punjab and the families of jujaharoo singhs know who Talwinder singh wasâ€

This is very true of both sides – i.e. including his young supporters who like to turn a blind eye to his more questionable activities.

“He served his whole life to khalsa panth but people doubt him . I am not mad but I feel so sorry for who don't know about him.â€

How about those who did know him? Such as the many Khalistani supporters, who themselves later went onto disown him and/or form other splinter groups (of the BKI and/or other Khalistani groups)?

“Labeling somebody an agent is so easy it is beeen happening since 1978â€

This is precisely the point, even today when Sikh youth are discussing any item, it takes only one person to simply ‘ask a question’ which get that person ‘labelled’ and taunted for being some GOI agent…clearly we know where the youth are getting their ideas on morality from (i.e. not the Gurus!)

“If you believe that bagri 's speech was wrong then Sant Jarnail Singh did so many speeches like that then the whole movement was wrongâ€

This is precisely what people like Khushwant Singh have said from the start, however given his background, and in the eyes of many, questionable stance on certain matters of faith and religious life, he is perhaps deservingly, not the opinion most Sikhs wish to spare time to hear, nonetheless the point holds fine – if one regards Sant Jee as their leader and the epitome of a Gursikh, then surely the “Big T†Jathedar Talwinder Singh Babbar “Jinda Shaheed†should be regarded likewise, the author is right it is a question for all who claim to support one and not the other (i.e. Sant Jee vs. Jathedar Sahib) on such grounds?

“I respect all the saheed singhs because my soul is still aliveâ€

Indeed most Sikhs do – regardless of one’s stance on the “leaders†of the Khalistani movement, it is undeniable that there were many young Sikhs during the 1980s, who were genuinely rehitvaan and living Gursikh Jeevans (that I personally can only dream of fulfilling) and felt that they were dying for just causes.

[Premi]

 

[GurjantGnostic]

On 5/3/2007 at 12:45 PM, Dancing Warrior said:

My opinion it was an act of barbarism to do such a thing to a woman what ever her crime. Even in a combatant situation killing, mutilating, dishonouring a woman is totally totally unacceptable. But then Two armed guards killing a defenceless women what ever her crime was that acceptable? In my opinion no. Such crimes against women, children and the non combatant are crimes against humanity be it a freedom fighter or an army officer. Depravity is depravity what ever the uniform, what ever the righteous cause.

 

Chatanga I am not neo or sanathan or any such label you may care to define me with, I don’t even believe in religion to me its just a moral code. There is a difference between morality and spirituality. I only consider myself a Sikh just a leaner I cant claim to be any more because I believe in its unlimited capacity it could take life times just the fathom what a Sikh is. So many mechanically rifle through Bani, scripture and history and are most learned I truly believe I don’t even understand the beginnings of Mool Mantra, Ek Onkar, because if I did I would be truly liberated.

Simp harder for the cult of feminism . 

Worship God not women.