is it mandatory to take khanda amrit?

[sigher]

or is it fine to take charan pahul from a sant guru. I know this existed before but ever since the introduction of khanda amrit this initiation has become gupt somewhat. Does it make a difference if you take charan pahul? are you less worthy?

[shaheediyan]

In mainstream and sampradic Sikh tradition (bar Nirmalai/Udasin possibly) Khande da Amrit only is the formal intitiation process into the Singh Khalsa Panth - as ithihaas tells us teh 10th Master replaced charan amrit with Khande da amrit.

[Matheen]

Within Sikhi, all Sampardas initiate Sikhs through Khandey Da Pahul. It is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's hukam. True Mahapursh don't join you to themselves, but to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How are you going to take Charan Pahul from Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

If you undergo a different initiation, then you may become a sikh of that particular guru, but not of Guru Sahib.

[amardeep]

If you look into the various rehitnamas, you will see that they mention Khande di pahul and Charan pahul side by side, as if both were still active after 1699. Have any sikh scholars looked into this and researched whether charan pahul was still active? i remember one rehitnama from mcleod's translations going "Initiation can either be done by the Khanda or by the Feet-initiation".

i think its from Bhai Desa Singh or the sau sakhi

[Mithar]

Are there still groups that give Charan Pahul? I heard that Udasins give Charan Pahul

[amardeep]

i think udasis give charan pahul

[jsingh96]

t singh must know about this, i believe he was looking into this

[shaheediyan]

Charan Phul would be relevant to Udasin (and many other older orders/Indian schools) as their order pre-dates Khalsa Panth - and remained unchanged. It is a traditional Indian methodology of intitiation and not unique to Sikhi.

Subject is a non-issue really - 10th Master gave Khandai bhattai da amrit to Guru Panth (Panj Pyare) from whom Panth take it today - i.e. from their eternal Guru, rather than their Sansaari Guru. One may take both amrits - but only the Khande da Amrit is valid for Singh Khalsa and to become Sat-Guru's shish. Charan amrit would simply bind you to the mortal Guru you take amrit from (and their school - be it a Sikh one), nothing else.

[amardeep]

Shaheediyan Ji:

What is the reason for several rehitnamas mentioning of charan di pahul?

I once heard that Khande Di pahul is for the ones who wish to be sant-sipahis, whereas charan di pahul was for the ones who aspired to be sants. Is it possible that Maharaj made this distinction between the two, and still let the sants keep on their traditions for those sikhs who did'n want to adopt the warrior aspect? (and hereby become a living target for the mughals etc?

Do you know of any scholar who'se done a research on the subject of Charan pahul after 1699`?

[Guest]

The problem is , lot of Sikhs are stuck in to outer intiation that they seem to overlook inner initiation- naam amrit, bhramgyan amrit which is one and same for everyone.

Gurbani highly emphasize on inner amrit than outer intiation, if that was a case guru maharaj wouldn't include banis of bhagat sahiban who took intiation different ways but bhramgyan amrit was one and only, thats why guru sahib says- Nanak Amrit Ek Hai Dooja Amrit Nahi ||

Unfortunately lot of people adher to tat khalsa singh sabha beleifs like to push the above quote as amrit being khanda da amrit to push supermacy of khanda da amrit over other dharam which also uses amrit intiation .

As Sant maharaj ji rara sahib wale says, there are three levels of amrit- sanskar amrit , naam amrit, bhramgyan amrit.

In Sikh panth, there are two ways of life and both parvan to guru maharaj-

1. Khalsa way of life which is taking khanda da amrit, keeping 5k's , refraining from 4 bujjar kurehits. Khalsa way of life also have aim of meditating upon naam amrit they got from panj pyares a from gurbani and then via its kaamiya get bhramgyan amrit. This bhramgyan amrit gurbani talks about over and over again.

2. Sikh way of life, lot of udasi, banjarie sikhs, kabirpanthi sikhs, sevapanthi and some % of nirmale adhere to which is charan amrit and getting naam amrit from their gurdev which is from gurbani also, aim for bhramgyan amrit. Example of sehajdhari udasi mastane mahapursh who adher to this life style- baba biram das ji who were the first one to recnognize bhram jot in sant maharaj ji rara sahib wale, bhai kahn das ji who were guru bhai of sant jawala singh ji harkhowale.

Details of charan amrit varies, there is diversity of outer of charan amrit as well- same do it with old traditional style, some perform this initiation of just reciting japji sahib with pitch of water in the glass beside then after its done, advise their shish to drink it.

Both way of life have one aim meditate on naam to get bhramgyan(vahiguroo naal milaap).

Tat khalsa singh sabha were guilty of ignoring the tat message of gurbani when it talks about amrit, they used the above quote to push their agenda, they were guilty of starting long debate on outer initiation (sanskar amrit), how khanda da amrit is only parvan in the Sikh Panth. Sadly, they haven't get passed over petty fights over outer initiation.

Here is sehajdhari mahapursh, i got this picture jivan kiraniae pustak dedicated to sant jawala singh ji harkhowale. This mahapursh were premis of Sant jawala singh ji harkhowale:

Caption under the picture written as sant bhagat singh ji, and other place they were described as das ji.

This is one example of many, i have rare pustak given one of my freind, its called mahapursh from malwa region, amount of sakhiya and pictures of sehajdhari mahapursh this pustak have interacting with khalsa maryada purushstam mahapursh happily this pustak have its unbeliveable, after reading this book i came to conculsation its only cham dristi people like us who like to have dvaish and make claims khanda da amrit is the only way without reading the history and tat gyan of gurbani.

[shaheediyan]

"What is the reason for several rehitnamas mentioning of charan di pahul?"

Do the rehitnamas mention Singh or Sikh, my posts state there is a difference.

[amardeep]

I'll post them here on sa when i get home.

[Matheen]

As Sant maharaj ji rara sahib wale says, there are three levels of amrit- sanskar amrit , naam amrit, bhramgyan amrit.

Please listen to Sant Ji's deevan "Vaisakhi da Parsang" in which they explain the importance of Khandey Bhattey Da Amrit. They themselves inspired hundreds of thousands of people (literally) to become Guruwaley.

[Guest]

Please listen to Sant Ji's deevan "Vaisakhi da Parsang" in which they explain the importance of Khandey Bhattey Da Amrit. They themselves inspired hundreds of thousands of people (literally) to become Guruwaley.

Just because there are different forms of outer inititation (amrit) does not devalue importance of khanda bhattey da amrit in any way. Thats only shows insecurity on our part nothing else. People have turned this diversity in the panth into "how my amrit is more higher than yours game? now days even lower, how my jatha amrit is better than yours?

The point of my post was not devalue khanda da amrit ceremony or importance in anyway, point of my post to shed some light on this topic so that people hopefully understand there are three layers of amrit and make people understand - one does not have to devalue other outer intiation in order to do upma of khanda da amrit nor people need to distort gurbani/historical events in sheer insecurity or start guilty trips on people, just to push khanda batta da amrit higher tradition out of all other outer intiation. Parchariks should go deep in amrit philosphy both outer and inner intitation instead of doing bhandi parchar .

Khanda da amrit is historic/spiritual event by sri guru gobind singh ji is equally valid and importance in itself but this does not make other outer intitation in the sikh panth invalid, Khanda da amrit will stay untouched and will still stay same to the people who adhere to it and who understands it and have full faith in it, regardless of diversity ie- other intiations in the sikh panth. Diversity will not shake their faith, in fact it will make them stronger because of beautiful garden of sri guru nanak dev ji where all different types of flowers co-exist with each other. It's usually kachaie dagaie who have doubts and feel insecure and try to twist historical rehitnamas along with distort gurbani to push their agenda which tat khalsa singh sabha was very much guilty of it. If they would have taken the time to spread gyan what exactly is amrit? instead of usual guilt trips, there shouldn't be divisions between monay and singhs now nor there would be " i am holier than you attitude"

[Matheen]

I didn't read any post in this thread that does any of the things you speak of.

Sometimes people come on here to ask a simple question and they probably leave more confused than ever. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is still new to the path and read this thread from the first post to the last.

[shaheediyan]

That was a slight over-reaction N3O Ji... we expect a higher conduct from Moderator Sahib!

Matheen is right - no one here was slating anyone or anything - the core issue I stress again is the marked difference between Singh and Sikh. Singh being the roop of Shastardhari Guru - Guru Gobind Singh Ji (who himself is the 6th Singh of the Khalsa Panth) - and Khande bhattey da amrit being the right of initiation to become a Singh (not a Sikh).

[Guest]

sorry guys if my post seem bit on over reaction side..certainly didnt intended to do so. My post was just general observation on this whole issue.

[Guest]

or is it fine to take charan pahul from a sant guru. I know this existed before but ever since the introduction of khanda amrit this initiation has become gupt somewhat. Does it make a difference if you take charan pahul? are you less worthy?

since i already went off- topic in this thread, without any more off-topic in this discussion. Here are *my views and my views only* should not be confused with views of this forum. I am responding as normal member than a representative of this forum.

1. is it fine to take charan pahul from a sant guru?

- It all depends if you are upasak of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj ? or sansari spritual guru. Jaigaso who considers Guru Khalsa Panth started by sri guru gobind singh ji as their ishatdev must take khanda da amrit.

In the past people who have taken charan pahul have also gotten darshan of sri guru gobind singh ji ie- baba biram das. Thats non issue, issue here comes down - if you beleive in singh life style or sikh life style? singh khalsa have to take khanda da amrit. You must choose one.

2. Does it make a difference if you take charan pahul?

No difference, according to my understanding they are both parvan in the sikh panth. In khalsa panth only khanda da amrit parvan, also you must understand there are certain duties in the panth which only khalsa amritdhari can perform ie- sukhasan seva of maharaj, parkash seva of maharaj, tatkh sahiban seva etc

3- does it make you less worthy?

- No because gurbani highly emphasize on naam amrit and bhramgyan amrit. As long as you got gurmantra/naam from pooran sant or panj pyares you are not nirgura anymore despite of whatever matt you belong to.

[Mithar]

That was a slight over-reaction N3O Ji... we expect a higher conduct from Moderator Sahib!

over-reaction?? Nah... that's not an over-reaction. Now this is an over reaction:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqR5NPhtLI

[NoorKaur]

Singh being the roop of Shastardhari Guru - Guru Gobind Singh Ji (who himself is the 6th Singh of the Khalsa Panth) - and Khande bhattey da amrit being the right of initiation to become a Singh (not a Sikh).

Veerji, so a woman only becomes Kaur after taking Khande-da-Amrit I presume, right? In this case its weird how people use Singh and Kaur in their names before they become initiated and are worthy of living up to these names. Ok sorry, off topic quick post over!

[chatanga1]

they use the names cos their 'rents giv em da names, singh and kaur. like i have given mine.

[ipledgeblue]

singh name was/is used by many non-amrit-dharis, long before 1699

[Free Radical]

Interesting thread.

I have a question, for a Sikh in the "Sikh" faith, how many types of "Amrit" are there?

ps. I have used quotes because from what I have read there seem to be alot of different groups who call themselves "Sikhs", but all differ in their practise of the faith.

[Xylitol]

Shaheediyan Ji:

What is the reason for several rehitnamas mentioning of charan di pahul?

I once heard that Khande Di pahul is for the ones who wish to be sant-sipahis, whereas charan di pahul was for the ones who aspired to be sants. Is it possible that Maharaj made this distinction between the two, and still let the sants keep on their traditions for those sikhs who did'n want to adopt the warrior aspect? (and hereby become a living target for the mughals etc?

Do you know of any scholar who'se done a research on the subject of Charan pahul after 1699`?

If Khande di Pahaul is only for sant sipahis then why does Nanaksar promote only Khande di Pahaul and not Charn di pahal? Nanaksar has arguably stepped away from the sipahee/political aspect to focus solely upon bhagti, yet they promote khande di pahaul only and require ablakhees (people who are about to take Amrit) to keep kirpan.

[Xylitol]

Shaheediyan Ji:

What is the reason for several rehitnamas mentioning of charan di pahul?

I once heard that Khande Di pahul is for the ones who wish to be sant-sipahis, whereas charan di pahul was for the ones who aspired to be sants. Is it possible that Maharaj made this distinction between the two, and still let the sants keep on their traditions for those sikhs who did'n want to adopt the warrior aspect? (and hereby become a living target for the mughals etc?

Do you know of any scholar who'se done a research on the subject of Charan pahul after 1699`?

If Khande di Pahaul is only for sant sipahis then we must ask why does Nanaksar promote only Khande di Pahaul and not Charn di pahal? Nanaksar has arguably stepped away from the sipahee/political aspect to focus solely upon bhagti, yet they promote khande di pahaul only and require ablakhees (people who are about to take Amrit) to keep kirpan.