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Xylitol

Rape Epidemic In Europe

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Seriously dude. If we have problems with any other quom. Lets deal with it bravely ourselves and not jump on some extreme right wing bewakoofs bandwagon.

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I don't have a problem with any quom. I do have a problem with extremists of any religion who target people simply b/c they are of another religion. awareness of what is happening is important.

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Xylitol wrote:

I don't have a problem with any quom. I do have a problem with extremists of any religion who target people simply b/c they are of another religion. awareness of what is happening is important.

Islam condemns rape and the punishment for it is death. These migrants who rape girls are nothing but criminals. 100 years ago you had the same situation with the urban proletariat. I don't think giving this serious problem a racial or religious dimension is going to solve this issue.The issue is rather that these migrants be they from the Middle East, Indo-Pak or Africa have the idea that white girls are sluts because of their consumption of porn and decadent movies. There is a social dimension in it as well, a sort of perverted revenge of the underdog which already existed in 19th century literature before this immigration business. The other obsenity is also the use of these women's suffering for dubious political purposes.

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That's cool brother. I was just a bit concerned because in the past, some misguided Sikhs people have jumped into bed with anti-Muslim KKK type organisations in the UK as a knee jerk reaction to Sikh girls being targetted.

We have to sort our own problems out.

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Xylitol wrote:

Islam condemns rape and the punishment for it is death. These migrants who rape girls are nothing but criminals. 100 years ago you had the same situation with the urban proletariat. I don't think giving this serious problem a racial or religious dimension is going to solve this issue.The issue is rather that these migrants be they from the Middle East, Indo-Pak or Africa have the idea that white girls are sluts because of their consumption of porn and decadent movies. There is a social dimension in it as well, a sort of perverted revenge of the underdog which already existed in 19th century literature before this immigration business. The other obsenity is also the use of these women's suffering for dubious political purposes.

Call for the death sentence then ashraqi. Lets have the mullahs say rather than ask if a woman is modestly dressed, hang the men who did this. Its easy to say Islam this and Islam that.

In islam womans testimony is half to mans. What if the woman is a non-beleiever? Does she have to provide double the witnesses to prove the allegation?

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Xylitol wrote:

Islam condemns rape and the punishment for it is death. These migrants who rape girls are nothing but criminals. 100 years ago you had the same situation with the urban proletariat. I don't think giving this serious problem a racial or religious dimension is going to solve this issue.The issue is rather that these migrants be they from the Middle East, Indo-Pak or Africa have the idea that white girls are sluts because of their consumption of porn and decadent movies. There is a social dimension in it as well, a sort of perverted revenge of the underdog which already existed in 19th century literature before this immigration business. The other obsenity is also the use of these women's suffering for dubious political purposes.

Agreed.

BUT the concern I have is that worldwide Islamic communty seems to be 'steered' more and more by Islamist extremists and the vast majority of Muslims, who are not bad in that they are just like the vast majority of people of any religion, are not doing much to stop this. This is the concern that people who are intelligent enough to not make sweeping generalisations have with Islam today.

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Fateh!

I suppose the fact that the vast majority of these rapists use Islam as the justification for their repugnant immoral acts should just be ignored because it might offend the Muslim population, right?

What bothers me most is that as soon as these rapists open their mouths and betray their Islamic motivations and excuses for raping these innocent girls, the PC liberal brigade and these so-called moderate Muslims start complaining about the media exhibiting racism and anti-Islamic prejudice by revealing the nationality and religion, and the true beliefs and motives of these rapists. It seems that some people would like nothing better than to ignore the problem and hope that no one dares to question the beliefs of the ever increasing Islamic population in our midst.

The connection between rape and Islam:

http://www.islam-watch.org/Fjordman/Islam&Rape.htm

The long historical connection between rape and Islam from the example of Muhammad:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm

Sheikh Hilaly on rape:

http://www.geocities.com/realitywithbite/hilaly.htm

The Hijab and Rape:

http://www.dhushara.com/book/sakina/stoningetc/hijabrape.htm

Muslim rape in Sweden and Norway:

http://news.ronatvan.com/2008/04/04/muslim...den-and-norway/

Western Muslims' rape spree:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=6161

Family of teen Muslim invited men to rape her:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3295487.ece

Muslims threaten to capture Danish women as 'war booty' and to rape them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEYr9gwmJpE

Saudi King "pardons" woman rape victim (after she receives 200 lashes and 6 months imprisonment):

Saudi Sheikh: rape within marriage is impossible:

If your wife refuses, Allah says beat them (according to a Qatar Sheikh):

Regards,

K.

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Kaljug,

So how do you explain that in Iran men guilty of rape get executed? You think posting some Wahabi videos and Scandinavian racist sites is an argument. Agreed, there is a lot of Wahabi scum in Europe that should be at best deported if not even executed. But all you've done is show "Muslims" who are ALL paid by Saudi Arabia and use their corrupted Sunni sources to back their crimes.

Fact remains: rape is a crime and is punished by death according to Islam, the real Islam of Ahlul Bayt (as) that is. Only two years ago three men were executed for rape in Iran: http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Iran-hang...2300859265.html

So how the hell do you want to convince me that Islam allows rape? Had you written that Wahabis and Sunnis allow rape you would have been right. So in the future try to be more accurate.

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One has to consider why these problems don't occur in other communities who also migrated here under similar circumstances. Could it be that the religious leaders of non-Muslim communities don't keep harping on about the way women dress and referring to those women who do not dress modestly as being whores.

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Tonyhp32 wrote:

One has to consider why these problems don't occur in other communities who also migrated here under similar circumstances. Could it be that the religious leaders of non-Muslim communities don't keep harping on about the way women dress and referring to those women who do not dress modestly as being whores.

Interesting point. I remember, when I worked on some murder cases in the Asian community with the police in the UK, that violence against women was mostly culturally motivated and was found to take place in equal measire in non-Muslim communities as well.So I think the real point is mass immigration of uneducated populations who are unable to integrate socially and culturaly. They have replaced the proletariat in terms of social exclusion and replicate the same type of behaviour. Add to this that most youngsters in these diasporas have become clones of 50 cent and consume music that considers women to whores in general, it just makes the already existing male chauvinism already worse. As for non-Muslim communities and female dress code, Tonyhp32 seems to forget that the Catholic church has quite conservative views on the matter and surprise surprise, the veil is appearing again in Catholic and Orthodox churches. Even in France there is a growing number of women who refuse to conform to feminist ideals and have made a conscious choice to dress modestly. Had Tonyhp32 followed what Salafi terrorists actually do, he'd find out that in Algeria in the 90s they raped hundreds of hijabi girls. There is no justification for rape in Islam, whatever dress a lady may be wearing. If people of a certain diaspora are going to use white supremacist literature to paint immigrant rape as religiously motivated, they should be consistent with the whole white supremacist discourse and leave the Western countries they inhabit because to a white supremacist "they're all the same".

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nice way of deflecting the issue of certain islamic preachers views on women in a western society. also, i have seen hardly any mention of 'white supremacist' sources, just ones watchful of the actions of muslims. you can blame 50 cent, the low standing of muslims on the social ladder etc but it doesnt confuse the fact that 'rape' has different meanings in different cultures. some try to stop it, others just wash their hands and blame others.

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HSD wrote:

nice way of deflecting the issue of certain islamic preachers views on women in a western society. also, i have seen hardly any mention of 'white supremacist' sources, just ones watchful of the actions of muslims. you can blame 50 cent, the low standing of muslims on the social ladder etc but it doesnt confuse the fact that 'rape' has different meanings in different cultures. some try to stop it, others just wash their hands and blame others.

The punishment for rape in Islam is death. If some Pakis who come to the UK confuse their village mentality with Islam, it's the village mentality you should blame. Go to rural Sicily and you'll find the same village mentality. So again, Islam's sentence for rape is death.What is Sikhism's punishment for rape? Give me one clear scriptural passage with the word rape mentionned in it.Thank you.

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Kaljug,

So how do you explain that in Iran men guilty of rape get executed? You think posting some Wahabi videos and Scandinavian racist sites is an argument. Agreed, there is a lot of Wahabi scum in Europe that should be at best deported if not even executed. But all you've done is show "Muslims" who are ALL paid by Saudi Arabia and use their corrupted Sunni sources to back their crimes.

Fact remains: rape is a crime and is punished by death according to Islam, the real Islam of Ahlul Bayt (as) that is. Only two years ago three men were executed for rape in Iran: http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Iran-hang...2300859265.html

So how the hell do you want to convince me that Islam allows rape? Had you written that Wahabis and Sunnis allow rape you would have been right. So in the future try to be more accurate.

Fateh!

Great smear tactic. Just accuse the sources that I showed you that provide evidence contrary to your beliefs as racist or evil Wahabism.

Iran's Penal Code Sanctions rape:

http://seektruthandjustice.blogspot.com/20...tions-rape.html

And by the by, in Iran girls over the age of 9 and boys over the age of 16 can face the death penalty in Iran for charges like rape and murder. How, pray tell, does one determine whether a 9 year old girl consented to sex?

Ayatollah Khomeini's fling with a 4 year old child:

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2007/01/ayatoll...-with-four.html

Selections from the Ayatollah's writings on temporary marriages (Siqeh) and child marriages:

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/khomeini-sex/index.htm

Not only does your spiritual leader advocate temporary marriages (from 30 minutes to 99 years according to some sources) but he believes that sodomising children is acceptable accodring to Islamic law. What need for rape if prostitution and paedophilia is all fine and dandy in Iran?

Regards,

K.

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HSD wrote:

The punishment for rape in Islam is death. If some Pakis who come to the UK confuse their village mentality with Islam, it's the village mentality you should blame. Go to rural Sicily and you'll find the same village mentality. So again, Islam's sentence for rape is death.What is Sikhism's punishment for rape? Give me one clear scriptural passage with the word rape mentionned in it.Thank you.

yeah the 'death sentence'! well done, islam must be great if thats what they come up with. gurbani does not need to instruct us on most matters of law as we were not as lawless as the people in mohammed's time.

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HSD wrote:

yeah the 'death sentence'! well done, islam must be great if thats what they come up with. gurbani does not need to instruct us on most matters of law as we were not as lawless as the people in mohammed's time.

If a Sikh rapes a woman, what punishment does Sikh law propose? Care to provide the sources.Thank you.

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Kaljug wrote:

Fateh!

Great smear tactic. Just accuse the sources that I showed you that provide evidence contrary to your beliefs as racist or evil Wahabism.

Iran's Penal Code Sanctions rape:

http://seektruthandjustice.blogspot.com/20...tions-rape.html

And by the by, in Iran girls over the age of 9 and boys over the age of 16 can face the death penalty in Iran for charges like rape and murder. How, pray tell, does one determine whether a 9 year old girl consented to sex?

Ayatollah Khomeini's fling with a 4 year old child:

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2007/01/ayatoll...-with-four.html

Selections from the Ayatollah's writings on temporary marriages (Siqeh) and child marriages:

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/khomeini-sex/index.htm

Not only does your spiritual leader advocate temporary marriages (from 30 minutes to 99 years according to some sources) but he believes that sodomising children is acceptable accodring to Islamic law. What need for rape if prostitution and paedophilia is all fine and dandy in Iran?

Regards,

K.

Instead of quoting second hand sources why not go straight to real sources.

Here is the article of the penal code regarding rape:

Article 82. The penalty for adultery in the following cases shall be death, regardless of the age or marital status of the culprit: (1) Adultery with one's consanguineous relatives (close blood relatives forbidden to each other by religious law); (2) Adultery with one's stepmother in which the adulterer's punishment shall be death; (3) Adultery between a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman, in which case the adulterer (non-Muslim man) shall receive the death penalty; (4) Forcible rape, in which case the rapist shall receive the death penalty.

What you site forgets to mention is that physical proof of rape like DNA tests serves as witness evidence as well.

As for the age of marriage in Iran the minimal age has been set to 9 (it was 13 before).Such marriages are extremely rare and even so most marriage contracts of that kind would entail a section stating that sexual intercourse is only permissible after puberty. Nice try Kaljug. Most Iranians marry in their late 20s.

The reason why Imam Khomeini (ra) favoured early marriage is so as to avoid temptations when the couple reach puberty. It doesn't mean that they're going to have sex at the age of nine.Rather then young couple is to grow up in mutual love.

Btw if you actually read the original risalah you'll see that sodomy is not mentionned at all.

As for your slanderous accusations against our beloved leader (ra), quoting Wahabi Saudi sources means as much to me as you quoting your sister on the matter.

Sighe is an institution in Islam. If you view it as prostitution that is your choice. It's a marriage sanctionned by law with its rights and obligations.

I find it amazing that you should get on your moral high horse when at the same time you sing the praises of Crowley.

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May be others can enlighten, but does any know of any rehitnamas talks about punishment of wrong doing such as murder/rape?. I would doubt it as eastern dharams believe in karam philosophy. Ape Beej aape hee khaah ( what you sow you reap). I don't think its wise to compare eastern philosophy and western philosophy because of core differences.

Nevertheless, one should not condemn code of conducts of other dharam as they are for a reason to be a better human being, god leaving/fearing person.

This thread is moderated closely. If at any given we feel this is going in circles which is bound to happen in this thread, it will be closed/locked.

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N3O wrote:

May be others can enlighten, but does any know of any rehitnamas talks about punishment of wrong doing such as murder/rape?. I would doubt it as eastern dharams believe in karam philosophy. Ape Beej aape hee khaah ( what you sow you reap). I don't think its wise to compare eastern philosophy and western philosophy because of core differences.

Nevertheless, one should not condemn code of conducts of other dharam as they are for a reason to be a better human being, god leaving/fearing person.

This thread is moderated closely. If at any given we feel this is going in circles which is bound to happen in this thread, it will be closed/locked.

Dear N3O I think you need to make a clear distinction between philosophy-theology, ethics and then law. We are here discussing law and jurisprudence and about the issue of a certain crime and the punishment for it.

As for the issue of the crime of rape, the Indian traditional law systems have no punishment for it. There is punishment for adultery though in the Manusmriti:

“If a non-Brahmin commits an adultery, he is punished by death penalty. ... if a Shudra man

has sex with a Brahmin woman who is unprotected by her husband etc., his penis should be cut and all

his property should be confiscated. If he has sex with a protected Brahmin woman, all his property

should first be confiscated and then he be given death penalty. ... If a Kshatriya or Vaishya man has

sex with a protected Brahmin woman, he should be punished like a Shudra man or should be burnt

alive in a grass pyre. ... If a Brahmin man rapes a protected Brahmin woman, he should be fined one

thousand coins. If he commits adultery with her, with her consent, he should be fined five hundred

coins. ... For whatever sin committed by him, a Brahmin man should never be put to death. Keeping

his body unharmed, he should be driven out of the kingdom along with all his wealth.”

But the notion of rape is non-existent which means there is no punishment for it.The rahitnameh don't mention any punishment for rape.

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amardeep wrote:

you take them to the akal thakht in the sikh raj and they will give you some punishment for the deed.

Supposing that it would happen on which legal principles would such a judgement be based? If there is no legal system to start with how can you take someone to court for a crime for which there is no legal reference? How is a citizen suppose to live without a legal system?

I am not implying that Sikhism doesn't have an ethical code.Far from it. But an ethical code doesn't equal a legal system and a penal code. Any legal decision that is not based upon legal principles is de facto arbitrary and contrary to the idea of the idea of rule of law. Unless of course the legal system used would be a modified version of the Dharmashastras. But then again the Dharmashatras do not recognize rape as a legal category.

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Thus spoke Ishraqi:

Here is the article of the penal code regarding rape:

Article 82. The penalty for adultery in the following cases shall be death, regardless of the age or marital status of the culprit: (1) Adultery with one's consanguineous relatives (close blood relatives forbidden to each other by religious law); (2) Adultery with one's stepmother in which the adulterer's punishment shall be death; (3) Adultery between a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman, in which case the adulterer (non-Muslim man) shall receive the death penalty; (4) Forcible rape, in which case the rapist shall receive the death penalty.

And where, pray tell, is the punishment for the penalty for adultery between a Muslim man and a Muslim woman, or a Muslim man and a non-muslim woman?

As for the age of marriage in Iran the minimal age has been set to 9 (it was 13 before).

Gary Glitter would be pleased.

Such marriages are extremely rare and even so most marriage contracts of that kind would entail a section stating that sexual intercourse is only permissible after puberty.

Khomeini may forbid intercourse, but he encourages other forms of sexual abuse. Read the excerp in its entirety.

"II. A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."

The reason why Imam Khomeini (ra) favoured early marriage is so as to avoid temptations when the couple reach puberty. It doesn't mean that they're going to have sex at the age of nine.Rather then young couple is to grow up in mutual love.

Khomeini sanctioned paedophilia. FACT. Whatever reasons he gives for justifying his revolting acts are irrelevant.

As for your slanderous accusations against our beloved leader (ra), quoting Wahabi Saudi sources means as much to me as you quoting your sister on the matter.

Slander would imply that the accusations are false. You can keep whining about Wahabi Saudi's corrupting your Glorious Leader's message, but in this case the text regarding his RAPE of a prebuscent child is from his own biography.

I find it amazing that you should get on your moral high horse when at the same time you sing the praises of Crowley.

I have sung no one's praises. You on the other hand are defending a paedophile and a man who sanctions the legal equivalent of prostitution in the name of religion.

Regards,

K.

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N3O wrote:

Dear N3O I think you need to make a clear distinction between philosophy-theology, ethics and then law. We are here discussing law and jurisprudence and about the issue of a certain crime and the punishment for it.

As for the issue of the crime of rape, the Indian traditional law systems have no punishment for it. There is punishment for adultery though in the Manusmriti:

“If a non-Brahmin commits an adultery, he is punished by death penalty. ... if a Shudra man

has sex with a Brahmin woman who is unprotected by her husband etc., his penis should be cut and all

his property should be confiscated. If he has sex with a protected Brahmin woman, all his property

should first be confiscated and then he be given death penalty. ... If a Kshatriya or Vaishya man has

sex with a protected Brahmin woman, he should be punished like a Shudra man or should be burnt

alive in a grass pyre. ... If a Brahmin man rapes a protected Brahmin woman, he should be fined one

thousand coins. If he commits adultery with her, with her consent, he should be fined five hundred

coins. ... For whatever sin committed by him, a Brahmin man should never be put to death. Keeping

his body unharmed, he should be driven out of the kingdom along with all his wealth.”

But the notion of rape is non-existent which means there is no punishment for it.The rahitnameh don't mention any punishment for rape.

I think answer is simple. Tat Sidhant of Sikhism starts from tariqat not shariat. Sikhi put less importance on shariat aspect because of it mystic nature just like sufism, advaita.

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Kaljug

the risalah you mentionned is a theoretical case illustrating a problem of jurisprudence. The problem is this one: In cases where a father gives his daughter away in marriage before she reaches nine what rights does her husband have. Again this is a theoretical case and Imam Khomeini (ra) just gave his opinion. In this case we have two conflicting issues. The first one if the husband's right and the other one is the girl's right to bodily integrity. Some ulema argue that the husband has to wait until she is baligh (ie. attained sexual maturity) in order to have intercourse. Imam Khomeini (ra) argues that intercourse is not the only form of sexual activity and that as long as the girl's bodily integrity is not at risk such acts are ok. I personally would have included mental integrity as part of the discussion and would have come to a different conclusion.

Now regarding such fatwas which are just opinions not laws, you need to remember that there is a difference between jurisprudence and ethics. Something may be legal licit but ethically bad. For example: divorce is legally allowed but highly disincouraged from an ethical point of view. This ruling by Imam Khomeini (ra) is his way of solving a problem of jurisprudence. It doesn't mean that this is what he himself believed to be right.

The late Imam (ra) put great emphasis on the dignity of women and their rights in terms of studying and the work place. His respect for women was tremendous. The biography you mention is a Saudi work created to defame him. I personally know people who have been close to him and what you're saying about him are lies!

His grand daughter is probably more qualified that you to talk about him:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=85179...ctionid=3510302

The biography you mentionned is a Saudi lie. Interesting how you and others like you love quoting Wahabis.

As for sighe being prostitution: in your eyes a woman who enters a sighe with her fiancée before they get married is a whore? I guess you're among the people who are against seeing their spouse before marriage then. Your choice.

May Allah (swt) guide you.

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N30 wrote:

I think answer is simple. Tat Sidhant of Sikhism starts from tariqat not shariat. Sikhi put less importance on shariat aspect because of it mystic nature just like sufism, advaita.

I am ok with your reply but what your reply implies is the impossibility of a Khalsa Raj because of the absence of a legal system. Again I have not saying this is bad. I am just being consequent based on your replies.

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