Pheena Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 hmmm interushting thread ya'll got here....so anyone here had their mind changed either way for or against raag mala?? Say does anyone know whether the raag mala exists in the hand written SGGS at Harmandir Sahib? They one that is kept on the second floor?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 im not sure actually. anyone know hte history of this bir? i know that akal takht do not recite ragmalla. this may have changed recently, but i know in the past ragmalla has not been read...........correct me if im wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 im not sure actually.. so without full evidence uve decided to disregard a WHOLE ANG out of guru ji? if this isnt manmat what is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 if the bir in harmandir sahib did have ragmalla, what difference would it make? it certainly wasnt handwritten by the gurus. unless its got signatures of the gurus on it which are authenticised (and im not talking about signatures which are written in different styles by supposedly the same person like in the kartarpuri bir :roll: ) i dismiss the ragmalla currently on the evidence that ive presented, and im still waiting for people to discuss the points on grammar, numbering, the "seal" section before it, etc. its not like my ideas are set in stone and i wont listen - ive already changed my views in the past on ragmalla, and if u provide any more evidence then i might change my opinion.....but for now like ive said im more convinced it isnt rather than is gurbani. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 http://www.gursikhijeevan.com/media/video/...alRaagMaala.wmv http://www.gursikhijeevan.com/media/video/...lRaagMaala2.wmv have a watch of these if u aint seen em already - right click n save target as Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 if the bir in harmandir sahib did have ragmalla, what difference would it make? It makes heck of a difference. The Sacred Place for Sikhs do not carry the whole of our Guru????!!!????!!!!?? Assuming that the Raagmala is not in the SGGS that are at Harmandir Sahib. The one place where you can go and see no discrepencies in our Guru. The one place where our Guru is complete without errors. I think it makes heck of a Difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 for people who dont have full faith in our beloved guru ji, why would it make a difference for them :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 for people who insist fully that their word is better than gurujis, it really doesn't make a word.... why must you question every single thing, that's what i wanna know... yeah, sikhi says learn and not to follow blindly, but man, start your own religion if you're gonna questions and change every single facet of stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snigga Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 i dismiss the ragmalla currently on the evidence that ive presented, and im still waiting for people to discuss the points on grammar, numbering, the "seal" section before it, etc. its not like my ideas are set in stone and i wont listen - ive already changed my views in the past on ragmalla, and if u provide any more evidence then i might change my opinion.....but for now like ive said im more convinced it isnt rather than is gurbani. Hopefully I will be able to come up with these answers soon, I've been quite busy and when I get a chance will look further into this, and hopefully be able to help you solve this. it certainly wasnt handwritten by the gurus. unless its got signatures of the gurus on it which are authenticised (and im not talking about signatures which are written in different styles by supposedly the same person like in the kartarpuri bir ) All prataan Birs I know off contain Sahib Sri Raag Maala Sahib and all those written by Shaheed Baba Deep Singh contain Guru Sahibs signiture at the end of Sri Raag Malaa Sahib. If you find the signitures to be fabricated, well I can't do much for you other then ask you to double check. i know that akal takht do not recite ragmalla. this may have changed recently, but i know in the past ragmalla has not been read...........correct me if im wrong. Sri Raag Maala Sahib was always read at Sri Akaal Takht when Akaal Takht was under the managment of Budha Daal and the nihang Khalsa Panth. It was not until the Panj Kandian took power in the mid 90's when it was stopped. However it once again is read and by Guru's grace will continue to be read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 lol its funny here how everyone is saying how bad it is to reject ragmalla but still no one has been able to prove content wise it is real (if we ignore birs etc because im not so knowledgeable on that)......if u continuously go on about how "some people just dont have faith in their guru".....hey......id like to see anyone here keep full sarbloh bibek rehat like bhai randhir singh did in jail for a day.....there are plenty of gursikhs who have rejected ragmalla and plenty who have accepted....and most ppl here arent gonna be half the singhs that these people were so why dont u keep "faith in the guru" out of it.......if anything rejecting ragmalla shows just as much faith in SGGS since they see the ragmalla as fallible and see the rest of gurbani as infallible. books have been written on the dodginess of the kartarpuri bir. this is why many scholars have started to look at other birs (dodgy ones as well tho containing kacchi bani) to start alternate theories of which the original bir was. im not agreeing with these theories but it further proves that the status of the kartarpuri bir as the original bir is a little bit shaky. as for the akal takht situation im not sure, but i do know there have been times recently when it has not been read - so why is such a fuss being made over it? i dont say my word is better than gurujis, but like ive said a million times, if you find a bir with rattan malla at the end (and there are many) and reject it, are u a "modern ram rae" too? of course it wouldnt make a difference if it was in harmandir sahib. they dont let women to seva in harmandir sahib. they have a parshada machine. previously there have been idols in it. ahmed shah abdali made it a brothel. harmandir sahib is not immune to the corruption of sikhi - the place is cleaned with milk (altho whether thats bad or not i dunno, but sounds a lil hindu to me)..........so yes, whether or not the harmandir sahib bir has ragmalla or not is irrelevent, because its certainly not one written by the gurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snigga Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 if anything rejecting ragmalla shows just as much faith in SGGS since they see the ragmalla as fallible and see the rest of gurbani as infallible. your right....these people did the exact same anyalysis on SGGSJ and did tremendous amounts of prechaar for the panth and are all well known and respected prechaarks and all sampurdaama fully support them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 This reminds of an sakhi of guroo gobind singh ji- A sikh was reading gurbani, didnt prounce it correctly. Guroo ji said sikha bani shud par. Sikh was in his masti of reading bani with pyaar. Guroo ji said again sikha bani shud paar. Sikh was still makin mistakes. Third time, guroo sent peradar to slap on his geechii(neck). Sikh humbly said to guroo ji "If thapar huni pain lag gaie guroo ji" bad chh ki hoo saaaaada. Guroo ji said "Sikha tenu thapara pain dukh haie". Tu sada ang- kat dita..tenu ang kataie da koii dukh nahi. Sikh got confused and said "Guroo ji when i do that". Guroo ji replied and said pehla patsah neh keha ji "Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani wich Bani, Amrit Sare". Jehra sikh gurbani shud(pure) na paaraie... ho saada ang kata haie. Here sikhs of today..... bani ta ki parni aa shud... maharaj ji da ang hiii kaaaat dita.....people have chopped of guroo's ang from the body of guroo... whether people like it or not...you will pay this price... no worries.... any guroo-fearing people will not argue on maharaj's bani.. Yes my post might sound harsh.... guess what??? Saaach is kaoura... As far my relationship goes with guroo maharaj....I proudly to say it on anyone's face if they want "if you dont beleive in ragmalla, you should be kicked outta panth" where sgpc controlled akaal takth peeps like it or not..... remember masands, ram raaie.....Sharam karooo kuch... laakhaie taa dena pena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihal_Kaur Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 the thing is neo, that its very easy to say "so and so" should be kicked out of the panth but i feel that its not really our decision to say that. Really we don't know who is a Sikh and who isn't nowadays, the age of Kaljug means that peeps are just not interested in Vaheguru and it is now quite rare to find people discoursing about God. However it is also true that many people who dress up as Sikhs fail to grasp the fundamentals such as humility and kindness and therefore are not really Sikhs, but there are others who don't look all that religious but they are amazing in their rehats. The point is that Guru Maharaj can say who he accepts as his Sikh and who he's not going to accept, hes the one that knows everything, and as said before by Guru Ji, rehat matters, and not that you are a Sikh. Rehat is inside and outside. So neo, before we say who should be in a panth and who should be outside, lets just consider that its not in our ability to determine that...unless you can say you are anterjamee. :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 sowwie nihal kaur ji.. i do admit i got blown away there ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 n30 singh did u not read what i said? prove to me ragmalla is gurbani. i have a totally open mind on this but so far no one has, in a really analytical and systematic way, argued the points ive presented (excluding the historical ones) on why the ragmalla is not gurbani. however, what is the point in saying you will pay the price for chopping off an ang from gurbani etc etc...............are you better than bhai randhir singh? at your age, bhai randhir singh, bhai jeevan singh, etc were at a much higher spiritual level then you where. bhai sahibs chilling in saackhand, hes not trekking thru jampur cuz he didnt read a controversial page of the sggs :roll: also no one has actually said what the origins of ragmalla are. there are multiple theories and all contradict each other. one is that guru arjun wrote the ragmalla and alam copied him (doesnt hold up since the writer of the pro ragmalla article confuses guru gobind singhs court poet with akbars court poet)........a copy of alams ragmalla, written before guru arjuns time, still exists as part of the kam kandlan story. plus the ragmalla style of writing is mirrored in all his work. the second theory is that alam wrote the ragmalla and asked for it to be put into the sggs...that also makes no sense since alam was not a divinely inspired man and ragmalla wasnt dhurr kee banee......and if we read the kam kandlan story u know what i mean. theres another one bt i cant remember it do u lot believe in the raaag malla? recipies at the end of old birs? the 41st var of varan? these are all removed from gurbani but i dont see u screamin "RAM RAI!" at them. Mods note: Plese do not disrepect what some people consider as bani by calling it names, for the sake of respect. thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 KS, debating over this issue its an waste of time for me. Because i have faith in guroo sahiban 110%. I gave you the sakhi according to the sakhi i gave you the results what happens to such people who chop off maharaj's bani. Thats all...rest is up to...My job is to show you the way which is by guroo ji If you wish to play game of love, come to my place with head on your palm on your hand (Guro Nanak Sahib Nirankar) No doubts.. just completely faith... but i can imagine you next question you will doubt in some time... was our guroo asli or nakli??? ...do whatever you like..doubt too much that makes akaal takth kick all the ram raie from panth for good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 n30 singh ur "faith" in guru granth sahib is pretty contradictory if you believe it just because its in old birs, unless you read teh rattan malla etc aswell........it suprises people how everyone is choosing to ignore that if u really think bhai randhir singh is in hell, thats up 2 u really. but maybe it will "chop off" ur ego a bit to know that they are at a higher spiritual state then u ever will be the akal takht wont kick me out the panth, dont worry, a)becuz im not khalsa yet, and so technically im not even in the panth and akal takht have already said that its ok to read it or not read it. theres a good discussion on ragmalla going on at sikhsangat.com where more knowledgable gursikhs are debating - and so far the pro ragmalla peeps are just continually quoting the same stuff from that taksal website over and over :roll: i have faith in the guru granth sahib thankyou very much, so much faith that i believe guru sahib was perfect - i believe he would not add bani which had grammar mistakes, numbering mistakes, or borrow it from a pornographic book!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 a porno book...wow dude u might want to watch what you say unless you are absolutly sure about your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 if u really think bhai randhir singh is in hell, thats up 2 u really. but maybe it will "chop off" ur ego a bit to know that they are at a higher spiritual state then u ever will be Stop takin words outta my mouth.. you are very good at it. I dont know him. I dont see him claimin that its not bani but i do see his chaam chaaie claimin its not bani.. i wonder why??? .. Anyways perhaps my imagination runnin wild... Also dont forget to look at this: http://www.gursikhijeevan.com/community/ph...1&i=1065&t=1065 I wonder if you could straighten this issue out in your local gurdwara instead of crying, whining on the internet...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 a porno book...wow dude u might want to watch what you say unless you are absolutly sure about your claims. No worries veer he is 2nd on the ban list.... what an rubbish :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 i have faith in the guru granth sahib thankyou very much, so much faith that i believe guru sahib was perfect - i believe he would not add bani which had grammar mistakes, numbering mistakes, or borrow it from a pornographic book!!!!!! Gur Fateh! Well well well, it's our local mini-gangsta-siki-rapper-to-be Sardar Bahadur Khalsa Soulja coming straight outta da ghetto again! :roll: Mr Soulja, please could you or any of the knowledgeable Gursikhs that you speak of, please direct me to the 'pornographic' book from where the raagmala is taken, which I assume is written by the legendary poet Alam... Thanking you in advance... GUR BAR AKAAALLL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 alams pornographic book is called kam kandlan. its been mentioned a fair few times. why dont u read it or lean about it.... just because you are unable to refute the points of a relatively ignorant 16 year old non amritdhari who doesnt even wear his panj kakkars all the time, your saying im crying and whining? LOL! at my local gurdwara most people are akj, and they agree with me with your super-taksali knowledge why cant u explain the numbering and grammar in ragmalla? ooooooooo big words from the neo one......gwan ban me if u want, ill go and sit in the corner and cry :cry: :roll: but ull be banning me becuz u werent knowledgable to prove what u consider part of the guru granth sahib to be bani. considering people here (excluding pheena) are meant to be knowledgable, its very suprising you werent aware of what kam kandlan was. and if you werent, its obvious that you never came to an informed decision on ragmalla :wink: the fact that this thread is incredibly long, and its filled with stuff like ban warnings from the neo one and sarcastic remarks from the wannabe-humble niranjana, but still no one has clear cut proved its gurbani (other than saying "its in a few old birs").........shouldnt the divine light be shining out in the ragmalla making it blatantly obvious its gurbani? divine ras has been imbued in every line of the guru granth.......why is it people are struggling to prove ragmalla is real? i find it strange that people have to justify gurbani historically rather than by looking at its poetic and spiritual (or lack of) qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Thread closed!!!!!!!!!!. If anyone like to add more comments into the discussion. Please free to PM ME!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 jus opened the thread up again to get other peoples views on something the site ikirtan.com (to my knowledge is a AKJ site) has a "complete" audio recitation of sggs, and if anyone has heard these im sure they will agree they are recited sooo beutifully, dunno the name of the singh who did the seva tho :cry: well anyway, the other day i thought id listen n read thru salok mahala 9 on sri guru tegh bahadur sahib jis shaheedi dihara, and i thought i wudnt just stop completly, just read all the way up until the end and all of a sudden the file cuts off just b4 ragmaala started. the original obviously doesnt do this because its very sudden rather then purposely stopping. so im assumin the site is to blame for this. akaal takht warned everyone never to print a sggs bir without ragmaala at the end, obviously these files are not a sggs bir, but the principle is exactly the same.... :!: funny how some sites can have "this site supports akaal takht" and do exactly the opposite of its hukam :x btw, i posted this up on another forum where sikhawareness is often labeled as anti sikh, and my thread mysteriously dissapeared.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 btw, i posted this up on another forum where sikhawareness is often labeled as anti sikh, and my thread mysteriously dissapeared.... Thats what happens when ignorance transforms into jealousy and insecurity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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