GurpreetKaur

Bye bye, it was nice knowing you. From all SA people, we wish you a happy journey :)

Don't worry I'm laughing. I just got annoyed cause these topics have been going for at least two years now and frankly I'm sick of it. I will edit my post to make it more child friendly.
Both paapiman and satkiran are drawn to these topics like flys are drawn to light.

I am glad to hear that you have finally resolved some issues inside.  I am all up for sewa within Harmandir Sahib & Keertan at takhats. Go for it !
And didnt 5 pyaras also tell you to meditate for atleast 2.5 hours everyday lol I think you should also start doing that. Sorry, its not my place to say because I dont do nothing myself but bhagti will help answer more of your concerns & questions.
@GurpreetKaur Next thing we know , we hear news on PTC channel, a Bibi from Canada created riots at Darbar Sahib, trying to do sewa .  jus kiding

Oh God what are we gonna do about you Pappiman? lol

Oh okay so during my month, I should stay away from Maharaaj's saroop but there is no difference between Guru Amardas Ji and SGGS ji and all other Masters. I don't think, their wives and daughters were told to stay away from them during their month? Did 3rd Master told his wife to stay away from him for 3 or 4 days and all other Guru ji too? I don't think so. Did Mata Gujri ji stayed away from 10th Master while he needed motherly Love since there is no difference between 10th Master and SGGS ji.
 

THIS is what I am talking about!!!! ^^^^ And btw ALL Maryadas are man made.  If they were God Made, then we wouldn't have all kind of different Rehetnamas etc. all with different ideas. They were written by humans, trying to put what they believe is the correct conduct according to their own lenses. 
Also, you can sense the disgust in his tone above... trying to equate women with things he considers to be abominations... like homosexuality, and menstruation.  Not commenting on homosexuality, but as far as menstruation goes, Gurbani is pretty clear on that!!! Please refer to the thread where I am asking Amarjeet these questions. Gurbani CONDEMNS idea of ritual impurity because of blood. 
GURBANI = GURU and GURU = GOD RIGHT????? WE HAVE THE ANSWERS ALREADY IN SGGSJ!!!

Who cares? Let them do their thing. If they don't like AKJ, they don't have to follow them and people who like AKJ, they follow them. AKJ is akhand kirtan jatha right? They do kirtan with a lot of instruments. I like their Kirtans and so does snatam and traditional ones. When I listen to kirtan, I don't care about jatha. I just care about how I feel and connecting to Vaheguroo.

Who cares? Let them do their thing. If they don't like AKJ, they don't have to follow them and people who like AKJ, they follow them. AKJ is akhand kirtan jatha right? They do kirtan with a lot of instruments. I like their Kirtans and so does snatam and traditional ones. When I listen to kirtan, I don't care about jatha. I just care about how I feel and connecting to Vaheguroo.

Who cares? Let them do their thing. If they don't like AKJ, they don't have to follow them and people who like AKJ, they follow them. AKJ is akhand kirtan jatha right? They do kirtan with a lot of instruments. I like their Kirtans and so does snatam and traditional ones. When I listen to kirtan, I don't care about jatha. I just care about how I feel and connecting to Vaheguroo.

Then where is the problem? People who want females to be in panj peyarey go there and people who follow traditions go to the place where panj peyray are men.

yea i saw it long time ago, it ws hilarious... what a joker...

Males will not have a problem with this.
I have not come across any females who have a problem with this except you.
However, if there are women like you , who want female panj pyara, an option should be available for those women. A separate amrit sanchar can be started for them.
And women can also be enouraged & trained for being a panj pyara , if need arises to cater to such group people.
However, most people dont care for such small difference, and they like to be on safe side, and follow tradition.

I agree that the light is in all, the same in man & woman. And Gurbani instructs us to see light in all.
But we have to be fair for everyone.  There are good arguments on both sides. So people for like whose minds are still clouded by EGO, and cannot see the light we need a method too. So to be on the safe side, we simple follow old tradition.
As I said , an option should be available for those who want to take it from women.
But in the name of justice, and fairness, both sides should be presented to new sangat, & let them decide what they want. They should not be unfairly pushed into taking amrit from a woman panj pyara,:) They should have a choice.
 

If bodies are False, don't you think you are giving it too much importance when you want equal rights( which are not universal)?

I actually want to get a goat cause I love goat cheese. I can make goat cheese and get some of the milk from them. After when the goat has run its course I can do jhatka on it ;) Nah I'm kidding on the jhatka! I'm a vegetarian lol

np,  Gur-mat is using guru's mat as per gurbani, compared to man-mat, which is mind's mat(wisdom). What you are pointing towards is a different topic from this, and it's about difference between krodh and bir-ras. The 10th master fought against oppression and righteous truth. This is done with love and not anger. Gur-mat is completely free of mind's 5 dhuts and no ego comes into play as in Bhai kanaya ji event in battlefield of seeing satguru within everyone. The 10th master bir ras approach is practiced with it's roots in spirituality. In the example you gave, there is no slapping back as per gurmat. But at our level and in this day and age, you would say "waheguru" and talk to the offender to calm their krodh instead. Bring the other's krodh down instead of mirroring their actions!  If you are spending more hours per day doing internal waheguru sift salah, then you will automatically be conducting yourself in sehaj. In sehaj, it is very difficult for someone to invoke krodh in you.

Thank you for creating this topic, To me they are spiritual, if I am on the same page. 
Dharam khand : First stage( realization) when we get into bhagti or start reading Gurbani. we start thinking about Salvation or Nirvana. Example: Reading Gurbani, doing any ritual to show devotion. For me, this stage was or is reading Sukhmani sahib ji. Just reading it to find peace, did not know the meaning, was not following it, merely reading it. some things I heard were oh by reading Gurbani, you won't gain anything but Maskeen ji said many people start here. They read Gurbani or do jaap to get their wishes fulfilled and eventually kundalini start rising up and they start developing love.
Gyan Khand: second stage ( practicing) , when we instead of just reading Gurbani, we start practicing it. We bring it into our Day to day lives. Example: becoming Sukhmani sahib ji, try to do what it says whether it's talking about Doing Naam Simran or meditation, getting rid of rajo, tamo, sato or not doing what to others which we don't want happen to us. Acknowledging our Ego and realizing how its trippin most of the time lol. Gaining humility, humbleness, letting go of selfish nature and other vices.
Saram Khand: Third stage( Effort),  we start working hard to achieve the main objective of life which is to get rid of this life/death cycle. We have love for Vaheguroo and guroo, regardless of whether we are in comfort or not, or whether our wishes are or will be fulfilled. I am listening to Maskeen ji ( brahmand di alolak katha) while typing this and he just said birds are returning home and they are chirping singing and are content, they don't care about whether they have food for tomorrow or not. This kinda resonate with this Khand, there is no worry about tomorrow, surrendering to creator and making an effort to merge with it.
Next two Khands are for advanced people. There are some people over here who know them or have glimpse of them. I am a bad candidate to even talk about them lol
Karam Khand: Our bajjar kapats( divine door) are opened,panj doots are controlled, maya is showing its full power to tackle seeker on this stage, dasam duar is opened, rom rom naam simran and connection to creator is created.
Sach Khand: Stage of Truth. Salvation. 

Sorry putt( I think you are too young so I can say that, makes me feel old and mature lol). Before huggies babies, you need to know the value of the one who is the reason of huggies babies and existence. Lol

Yeah. People who become Sikhs aren't expected to take up Punjabi culture. And women who wishes to follow the patti parmeshwar notion are NOT subordinate, lower status nor blindly obedient! They do it as an act of love just like some men spend 100.000 pounds on gifts to their wives.. Its an act of love though for most people it would look outright stupid to spend that much money on gifts.. You need to train yourself into stop thinking that showing acts of love all of a sudden positions you either as high or low. A woman can easily see the divine in her husband and still be his equal....
Next question. Shoot.

When I looked at the Gurmukhi of the first shabad and saw the context I assumed it was translated wrong. The context talks about satee wives, and the shabad then appears to say that those women who see God as their husband - they are the true satees. Its not that women are to see their husband as God.. They are to see God as their true eternal husband, - hence don’t kill yourself in the fire ... So textually I agree with what you write next regarding your own interpretation of that shabad.
I have'nt read all Sikh scriptures or writings but I dont recall having come across anywhere that states women are to see their husbands as God. the Prem Sumarag has a line that goes something like this: "What is a woman without her man? And what is a man without his woman?"
What that said,- the patti parmeshwar concept is highly widespread in large parts of India but it is not considered as a hierarchy with the woman at the bottom and man op top who she looks upto. This is you outlining it like that. In reality it is to be seen as a somewhat romantic gesture that creates a loving social bond between the man and woman. This might be difficult for a non-Indian to understand. In the same way in some African cultures there is a tradition of women being voluntary whipped to show their love to their husbands. When Europeans tried to stop this norm due to the barbarity of women being whipped, - it was actually the women who objected to it ! For them it was a sign of their love. We non-Africans can condemn it and call it derogatory and oppressing because why aren’t the men being whipped as a gesture of showing love to their wives? But for the women, it was part of their culture and they did’n consider it derogatory…Etc etc.. Point is, some things looks weird as an outsider. Many western traditions are always weird to look at from an outsider. Why do grown men go into nature, chop a tree, take it home and into their living room, then decorate it and sing songs while they dance around it holding hands? Sounds like hill billy tradition right? No – it is part of a social cohesion amongst family members. It builds bonds between family members to celebrate Christmas like that…
But in terms of Sikhi ,- no I don’t think this Patti Parmeshwar tradition is part of the religion.. .Same way Lohri is not part of the religion yet observed by many… I don’t think Afghan Sikhs have a tradition of Patti Parmeshwar either since its not part of their culture.
Next question?

As far as I know of, - no there is nothing to suggest that women can't be panj pyare. The reason some groups are against is is due to there not being a tradition of it occouring. Historically in the 18th and 19thcentury it was the Nihangs for the most part who administered Amrit as there was a heavily martial and militant spirit to becoming a khalsa. A large majority of the panj pyare then were men and hence a tradition developed that mostly men possesed the role of being panj pyare. Not unlike in Europe today where there is a long tradition of men being CEO's, -its not because women are not allowed but its become habbit so to say. Which is changing these years.
So no, - I dont think there is anything in writing that prohibits women from being panj pyare. So you can't use this example to argue that Sikhi degrades women. Write a short comment to what i've written and come with your next question.

Very good!
I totally agree that they are spiritual for self journey. But they can also be 'experienced'  in terms of your own consciousness, as to the stages that it has to ascend i it's spiritual transformation.
Funny thing is that over the years, I've done a few little self interpretations here and there that are mostly a little botched, and un-sequenced,... because I've probably taken a little bit from here and there with all the different variations that exist in sikhi world!  ...However, nowadays,... I see it a little more clearly and actually realise that all the information and facts you will ever need were mostly right there in the pauris from 34 beginning with "Rati ruti tithi var" .
DHARAM Khand, like Gurpreet says, is the 1st stage of realisation or as I would describe ->the Path of DHARAM.
Guru Nanak ji tells us,.. that we are on earth, which is itself a DHARMSAAL.     DHARAMSAAL is described as what I understand, an old "inn" or meeting place/place of rest/ some en route location. ..etc,,     This means that we ALL start here or end up here, no matter what dharam. A single Dharam is required as the path to the top of the mountain. If we imagine all the different dharams as individual paths to the top, and we can only walk on one single one all the way according to where and what situation/place we are in.   DHARAMSAAL, in it stopover sense, shows that, we/manukhs, are all here in the Dharamsaal according to our KARAMS and our binding to the Lak chaurasi joon cycle. It becomes apparent from gurbani later on, that we are all in the same lakh chaurasi cycle, and have this one-off opportunity to take DHARAM.
I may be wrong, but I understand, that as our first steps and reason for ending up in this joon; is to work on BOTH our KARAM and DHARAM. (not to confuse the 'karams' here with KARAMKHAND later on)
Overall, in these 5 khand pauris, Guruji has explained the route or journey to -->> SACHKHAND, and to which we can transform our consciousness into 'permanently'.  Sachkhand is actually existing here and everywhere because ''Sackhand vasai Nirankar'' and Nirankar is himself the creator and in the creation (remember- Farida Khalak Khalk Meh Khalk Vasay Rab Maahe "The Creator God Is In The Creation, And The Creation Abides In God" ).. He is the All-pervading, all-knowing, right here, right now. So Sachkhand is not some million miles away.
 
I can try explain in more depth and following the gurbani- tuks when I get more time......but in a nutshell,.... We start by taking path of DHARAM KHAND and working our KARAMS. Gurbani explains in many places after japji, that taking DHARAM and giving full devotion of self seva, self sacrificing Mat and haumai  to satguru.-->, can get you walking the mountain path in Hukam, as per gurmukh and being in 100% gurmat. This will start erasing all your karams one by one! .....  this is 1st DHARAMKHAND realm.
(Amerdeep ji  questioned of why khands are never mentioned again in bani?...and I would understand that all the bani that follows, expounds and opens up in depth of exactly how one is to transform their consciousness after taking birth on the Dharamsaal to get to Sachkhand).      Also, in another thread, I explained my understanding of the later jath pahara tirajh suniar/ Goldsmith verse as being a technique of helping you practice and realise yourself in this transforming process, by using technique of NAAM JAP. when one starts Dharam khand steps.
 
Second stage is GYAAN KHAND.  and this stage begins when Naad becomes manifest. (Gyan Khand meh gyan patchand, tithai NAAD binodh kod anand)...or should I say that Gyan begins at Naad. The gyaan is not just intuitive knowledge. But it is a continuous gyaan of increased awareness, consciousness expansion, ridd sidh- nau nidh and all the signals mentioned in prabh ka simran pauri of sukhmani sahib lets say... all the washing of dirt from mann, purification ,,gyaan to help power 5 dhuts   etc      Then is SARAM KHAND and KARAM KHAND, which are very close and describe the path/stage leading one up to "Sacha Darbar"  or the court of the lord. These are the heavens that are mentioned in many faiths and assumed to be final destinations,... but Guru Nanak Dev ji has given us the ultimate guide to beyond these angelic heavens and joys that sit outside the door of Waheguru's darbar. (I'm sure that heavens are not sachkhand). Saram Khand and Karam Khand  are described as being near impossible to depict or express,  but Dhan dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji sachey patshah has given the nishanees (insignias) with subtle hints in those pauris, so that they can be acknowledged and recognized to the seeker.
 

As my first read Gurbani was Sukhmani sahib , i can relate to what you say . Very well explained indeed .

This is for the men who are so confident that women are not human, ohhh cuz we are angels lol. Okay, seriously worth watching. 

I did not realize it was her until I saw sk cuz the post seemed too calm lol