shaheediyan

Chatanga, please don't use the singular example I have given to stereotype a whole sampryada, that is a low kick.

Meaning delve into it, be passionate about it, have confidence in your ability, practice-practice-practice, be inventive/imagintive, think about different scenarios/weapons/multiple opponents, learn to look for and recognise the subtleties, understand everysingle posture/movement/position you are ever in and its purpose/effectiveness, question everything that you learn and its true potential (this is the hardest thing to do as you have to seperate yourself from the moh of your style and teacher), compare and contrast against other systems, find and strengthen weaknesses (through generational learning - any combat is constantly evolving - sometimes improving/sometimes the opposite, depending on the understanding and interpretation of the user - there is no such thing as a system/style which is exactly as it was xx years ago IMHO), practice with as many partners as possible (even from different schools) to test your art and improve it, even if it means adding to it (we should all have personal reportoire up and above what we officially learn .... Meditation on combat in my understanding encompasses many, many elements of good habits/practice/discipline etc etc Hope you get the idea.

I don't think Nidar Singh has any Muslim students now, I think he may have had 1 or 2 in London in the past. Funnily enough they have never caused problems. On the other hand, literally hundreds of his ex-Sikh Students can't help but back chat, curse, spread false propoganda about their ex teacher etc. If a Muslim is willing to put his hands together and follow an Ardaas praising the Gurus and Shaheeds, to do Shastar Pooja (Namaskaar), to listen to Sikh view point of Sikh ithihaas (for hours and hours lol), to listen about the valour/courage/glory of the Khalsa, to learn about the faith, to treat fellow students (all Sikh, most Khalsai) with utmost respect... then I don't really see the problem. If anything, those who attend the class will respect Sikhs, esp for Nidar Singh giving them an opportunity to learn many aspects of their own lost heritage (esp Pakistani Muslim) in terms of sword fightig etc. In all this, you forget, Nidar Singh is not a 'simple fella', he is very clever, and has many ways of sifting out fanatic types, be them Muslim or Sikh. I personally think it is admirable that Nidar Singh opens his classes to all, and in terms of promoting SV (even in terms of recognition) the class needs to egalitarian - gorai, kalai, hindus, Muslims whatever should all be allowed. Him doing this simply shows his confidence in his abilities and his plan. I believe the higher level stuff is not so easily shared, and only fully given to his Shagrids, so that does away with the problem of high level vidya going into the wrong hands. Generally, the more type of people (culturally, racially, different martial arts backgrounds whatever) attend the class, the regular students get fodder to practice on and perfect their art (as bad as that sounds). So I would say generally there is no need for concern. Kara fighting is not unique to Sikhi, Indonesia/Philipines have equivalents using slightly different weapons, in India their is Vajra Mushti, from which one of the intial knuckle duster type ridged kara photos in teh video is taken from (or at least the same as). Some Westerners have gone to Indian and learnt Vajra Mushti from the Gujrat Akharas, its a deadly art. Gien, the pentra etc used in Loh Mushti is different, but the engagement, control and counter etc I believe would not be so different, same goes for the Island versions in which I have seen similarities. At the end of the day everyone has 2 arms and 2 legs. Anyone who seriously meditates on combat is going to ultimately achieve similar results, hence the true Masters of various worldwide combat arts speaking/understanding the same language. The key difference here is the learning the historical and cultural context, which is unique in SV as it relates to Singhs.

The context of this discussion is around parchaar to none Sikhs, lets try and keep it focused on that, esp when looking at groups like Singh Sabha and Puratan Sampryada re approach. Even as late as Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji, Sikh Mahapursh had Hindu and Muslim followings, where is that today?

Mithar, there is some validity in your point. Having spoken to a well respected Nirmala Sant last year, he shared with me his concerns about some important Nirmala teaching centres like the one in Rishikesh, where the Nirmalai Sants are teaching youth Sanskrit only. They do not place importance on gurbani. This is (I think) a product of Nirmala exclusion during the early Singh Sabha period, where the Nirmala were pretty much forced into Hindu sangat. Over generations parchaar and teachign has gone more towards the hindu audience where as historically (as N3O has shown) it was all encompassing. Todays observations are a matter of political history and evolution. It is not too late to reverse the trend, and indeed we have our own Nirmalai in the UK doing excellent work to give education of and promote puratan Sikhi. Its not about who is the hero and who is the villian, groups change, circumstances change and create change, we should look beyond our bias and seek the truth, give credit where ever it is due. Saying that, many groups are not what they used to be, for many reasons, some not their own, but that does mean throw them out, they all still contain much value - we need to leave this attitude of chucking the baby out with the bath water.

What is needed is to get out of the 'Parchaar for Punjabis' mentality and start doing parchaar to all people i.e. going to them. That is where the future lies. If we look at our Guru Sahiban and early sampryadas, we see parchaar was done (and even taken) to Hindus and Muslim, amongst others. But the was some parchaar is done today, is in total condradiction to how it was done traditionally i.e. Singh Sabha Vs Nirmalai. If you want Hindus to join the Panth, then you need to engage intelligently, respectfully, in a language and medium they understand, Singh Sabha and associated bodies fall flat on their face in this field. Nirmalai on the other hand, were located in prime Hindu pilgrimage locations and ensured the Khalsa Panth would not diminish through their excellent parchaar and winning of hearts and minds over the Hindus. Today, Sikhs are to busy bad mouthing Muslims and Hindus to even consider inter-faith parchaar. The Seva Panthis are a superb example of a Sikh medium whose teachings were popular with all dharms, but had Gurbani at its heart. As an example, hindus or muslims reading recent posting on this forum wouldn't even give Sikhs the time of day, let alone being 'enlightened' and wanting to convert. Manmat, Krodh, Moh, Hankaar have replaced Bibek Budhi, Daya and Dhiraj.

Have you taken Amrit, are you a Singh?

SUN-TZU: THE PRINCIPLES OF WARFARE"THE ART OF WAR" Chapter Two: Doing Battle Sun Tzu said: Generally, the requirements of warfare are this way: One thousand quick four-horse chariots, one thousand leather rideable chariots, one hundred thousand belted armor, transporting provisions one thousand li, the distribution of internal and on the field spending, the efforts of having guests, materials such as glue and lacquer, tributes in chariots and armor, will amount to expenses of a thousand gold pieces a day. ? Only then can one hundred thousand troops be raised. ? When doing battle, seek a quick victory. A protracted battle will blunt weapons and dampen ardor. ? If troops lay siege to a walled city, their strength will be exhausted. ? If the army is exposed to a prolonged campaign, the nation's resources will not suffice. ? When weapons are blunted, and ardor dampened, strength exhausted, and resources depleted, the neighboring rulers will take advantage of these complications. ? Then even the wisest of counsels would not be able to avert the consequences that must ensue. ? Therefore, I have heard of military campaigns that were clumsy but swift, but I have never seen military campaigns that were skilled but protracted. No nation has ever benefited from protracted warfare. ? Therefore, if one is not fully cognizant of the dangers inherent in doing battle, one cannot fully know the benefits of doing battle. ? Those skilled in doing battle do not raise troops twice, or transport provisions three times. ? Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions. ? A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at great distances, the citizens will be impoverished. ? Those in proximity to the army will sell goods at high prices. When goods are expensive, the citizens' wealth will be exhausted. When their wealth is exhausted, the peasantry will be afflicted with increased taxes. ? When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves. ? Therefore, a wise general will strive to feed off the enemy. One bushel of the enemy's provisions is worth twenty of our own, one picul of fodder is worth twenty of our own. ? Killing the enemy is a matter of arousing anger in men; taking the enemy's wealth is a matter of reward. Therefore, in chariot battles, reward the first to capture at least ten chariots. ? Replace the enemy's flags and standards with our own. Mix the captured chariots with our own, treat the captured soldiers well. This is called defeating the enemy and increasing our strength. ? Therefore, the important thing in doing battle is victory, not protracted warfare. ? Therefore, a general who understands warfare is the guardian of people's lives, and the ruler of the nation's security. ?

Supreme Military Wisdom from Sun Tzu - Chinese General over 2,000 years ago... Learn and Enjoy!! SUN-TZU: THE PRINCIPLES OF WARFARE "THE ART OF WAR" Chapter One: Calculation Sun Tzu said: Warfare is a great matter to a nation; it is the ground of death and of life; it is the way of survival and of destruction, and must be examined. ? Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law. ? The Way is what causes the people to have the same thinking as their superiors; they may be given death, or they may be given life, but there is no fear of danger and betrayal. ? Heaven is dark and light, cold and hot, and the seasonal constraints. Ground is high Ground is high and low, far and near, obstructed and easy, wide and narrow, and dangerous and safe. ? General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline. ? Law is organization, the chain of command, logistics, and the control of expenses. ? All these five no general has not heard; one who knows them is victorious, one who does not know them is not victorious. ? Therefore, compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses. ? Ask: Which ruler has the Way, which general has the ability, which has gained Heaven and Ground, which carried out Law and commands, which army is strong, which officers and soldiers are trained, which reward and punish clearly, by means of these, I know victory and defeat A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him. ? Calculate advantages by means of what was heard, then create force in order to assist outside missions. ? Force is the control of the balance of power, in accordance with advantages. ? Warfare is the Way of deception. ? Therefore, if able, appear unable, if active, appear not active, if near, appear far, if far, appear near. ? If they have advantage, entice them; if they are confused, take them, if they are substantial, prepare for them, if they are strong, avoid them, if they are angry, disturb them, if they are humble, make them haughty, if they are relaxed, toil them, if they are united, separate them. ? Attack where they are not prepared, go out to where they do not expect. ? This specialized warfare leads to victory, and may not be transmitted beforehand. ? Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made; ? many calculations, victory, few calculations, no victory, then how much less so when no calculations? By means of these, I can observe them, beholding victory or defeat

Like I've said before, these people are the same both sides of the border. Egotistic and Proud to the level they happily murder their own kin to preserve their make belief 'izzat'.

Thank you Veer Ji. This is 'priceless' seva God bless.

As impossible as it seems, carrying weapons seems to have been banned in the home of Chandi, aside from military/police personnel. Does this mean Nihang Singhs are therefore banned from entering Chandigarh?

Good post Jattboot. Adding to what you have said and Maha Singhs post, historically, archery is seen to be the apex combat art, in all martial cultures, but namely Japanese, Chinese and Indian - the medieval (and earlier) martial texts attest to this. No other martial art takes as much time, skill, resource to develop a highly skilled practioner. There are whole manuals written in all 3 traditions about the exercise, mental and spiritual develpment needed to be a supreme archer. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself was most famed as an archer.

What an amazing man. I would encourage sangat to donate towards his excellent cause.

It has always been common for Hazuri Sikhs to marry local Hindu women. The above statement is incorrect, as the Hazuri Sikhs children are probably the most proud Sikhs in all India!

Everyone is part of the human family, and people need to accept that relationships happen in all sorts of situations. The book is a good read, and gives you a good insight into the 'details' of rural Punjabi thought/culture/life, as well as the real hardships faced by the Sikhs. It also gives an interesting insight into the 'workings' of the thousands of Sant-Dera (mini-cities) that now operate all over North India. Lastly, it is a romance, and shows what a real barriers culture, class, religion etc can ultimately be. Kudos to the author, who really tried to experience the authentic lifestyle, although it is sad it was at the expense of the lives and memories of Jungli and family.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਨੋ ਕਰਿ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਜਾਇ ਗੁਮਾਨੁ ॥ Guru Ji teachess that Karam are sown by us and thus, we bear the fruit also. But through Dharmic actions, we can certainly perfect/improve our karam. Through perfect bhakti, that rare individual rises above Karma and the game. We should at the very least strive to improve karma through good actions - IMHO the how, when and why is not important, all that is important is the purity of our thoughts and actions.

Al-Bernui certainly was highly intelligent man. The amount of knowledge he had over religions and languages astounds.

Sorry, my bad.

"I think GGS ji's 'Mitar pyaray nu' is a good example of this." The Shabd is from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

Jattboot, interesting plans for your kids, although Gymnastics is very good, it is said to stunt a childs growth, hence most Gymnasts being small. Its actually best for a child to have a natural upbringing in my case, as Maha singh says, let them hang around an akara, this is the best way for them to learn, as nature intended. They will pick things up, take interest as and when their ability/understanding increases. Personally, I think it is best for the parents to be practicing, as for the 1st 9 years or so, kids hold their parents in high esteem, and aim to mimick and replicate everything they do! Saying that, if you really want your child to be a fighting bad a*s, send them to the London Shaolin school, which is run by a real Shaolin Master. They train kids in thousands of year old tried and tested methods, their science is excellent, they know exactly how and when to progress a child, and the health/growth is not risked at all. In this training the child will develop super strong and flexibile tendons, muscles, bones... become very fit and disciplined, and pick up a rythm for the plethora of the hundreds of different fighting styles that are at the Shaolins disposal.

Thanks Amardeep, wonderful quotes. "In S.1748 (1691 AD) a Sarin Khatrani, Rup Kaur, came with the members of the Lahore sangat to attend the annual Baisakhi fair. She tried to deceive the Guru in a most grievous manner, but was unable to do so. It was because of her deceit that the Charitra [Charitro Pakhyan] were composed. The work was completed on the eight day of the dark hald of Bhadon S.1753" This is interesting, especially as the modern Pro-Dasam Granth camp claim that the Charitr in question does not relate to Dasmesh Pita.

Chatanga, SV caters for people with 'mature characteristics'. See Nihang Nidar Singhs 'bajurg' tactics in one of the martial arts exhibition videos... :-)

Many cultures and faiths including Buddism, Taoism, Indic Schools, Semetic Schools etc all believe in the sacredness and sanctity of pre-dawn prayer and meditation. It's a universally accepted fact in the world of religion that this time of day (amritvela) is the most powerful in terms of effort towards God (internal), namely (and on a more practical side) because the forces that be (obstacles), are at their weakest.

One of my training partners went to Uni with the founders of Shin-kin. From the stories I have been told, they are certainly hard nuts (the guys who invented it). However, IMHO, I don't believe their personal fighting ability/attitude translates to the teaching of an efficient fighting system. From what I have seen of shin-kin its very kick and punch intensive, looking a lot like taekwondo (which I am certain at least one of the founders has trained in). The rest is a mix of grappling (jujitsu?) and weapons training taken from Japanese systems rather Chinese from what I can see. It would certainly give you some confidence/ability on the street, but I am not a fan of highy intensive kicking or punching arts. Clever footwork, body movement, evasion and efficient destruction (rather than tit for tat) are much more important in my experience. I think the fitness training is certainly very good, you get sangat and you get good (with fight experience) teachers... but with regards to the fighting style, I would prefer more classical combat systems. Chatanga, the other option is you start training in SV and then train your son/daughter for a few years until they are older. You will also learn some great ithihaas and Singh fighting psychology. Alternatively I would recommend Hari Singhs Eagle Claw classes, you will train in a classical style, with ancient conditioning/exercises and learn some seriously dangerous skills! There is also that Singh Sahib who teaches JKD in Brum, he looks like he knows what he is doing, but not sure if he does kids classes.