chatanga

I can understand the violence a little. i am a comiitee member and some of the comiittee members are anti panth and anti granth. I want to hit them. HARD!

Fateh to everyone. For a possible answer ti this please read or research "AMARNAMAH" by a poet of Akali Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Darbar. Dhadi Nathmal was his name , he was an eyewitness to what happned at Hazur Sahib. This Amarnamah I have read a little peice of but nothing relating to gurgaddi to the granth. Also please dont be fooled by namdhari,they are liars and the panth has proved it many times, but their 2 mainliars chakrvati and alam both continued to carry on with thier Ram Singh is Guru stuff. Also I met a namdhari and i aked him what caste was Balak Singh? he was arora khatri. What caste was Akali Guru Gobind Singh? Sodhi Khatri. A sakhi of Bibi Bhani relates that Akali Guru Amardas gave her a boon that the Gurgaddi always remain in thier family. You may have heard of this sakhi. So if Akali Guru Amardas Ji gave this boon how could the gurgaddi have gone to Balak Singh who wasnt even the caste as Akali Guru Gobind Singh never mind being from the same family? The namdhari replied ive never heard that sakhi. " Of course you havent "I said. "Why would you be told that. It would negate everything the namdhari stand for." Plus Ram Singh was true to the Khalsa Panth. The present namdharis are all anti panth congressis. they have never supported the sikh before or after 1984. chatanga

That is a wonderful sakhi and one subject which has been of much debate. According to another sakhi Bhai Mardana passed away somewhere in afghansitan, where a samdh was purportedly built. Howevr this sakhi on sikhi wiki seems to carry more weight. What do ancient texts say about? Suraj prakash seems the one to refer to. victory to the Panth chatanga

Dear Tsingh fateh Thanks for your post. it was very interesting. I want to clarify that I have never been against the Nirmala samprdaye ever, but have generally been confused about thier origins. I totally accept Nirmala as part of the Khalsa nation. Your post is very good and I have learned many thing from it, for which im very grateful to you. My questioing is about the nirmala origins, not why are they here. I totally belive that the Nirmala samprdaye had the thapia of Akali Guru Gobind Singh Jee. Im just not totally convinced the the brahmans and kashi was the reason for their exalted status. Please dont think that i think that sanskrit as a language is not worth learning. Of course it is, like any language. But my piont on sanskrit is that all us Sikhs who dont know sanskrit 99.99% of the panth , should we in some way feel inferior? Also I meant on my post " face paint" sorry i typed in point by mistake. if you look on shastarvidya.org the nirmala have paint on their foreheads which make them look like brahman. Also please answer, why had this samprdaye taken a hindu lean ? They used to do parchaar of khande ki pahul , but now they dont do it themsleves. Is Sikhi part of Vedanta? Furgiveness chatanga

All Sikhs are Guru ke ladle - Nihangs have giben themselves this tag but all the Sikhs who follow the rehat are Guru Ji's Ladle. I think maybe you are leaving an r of the end of your name judging by the responses you have made here. victory to the panth chatanga

Fateh to everyone. Like most people i hadnt heard of Nirmala , but one day talking to the Granthi Sahib of our local gurdwara I found out that he had recieved all his teachings in the Nirmala Dera. He knew a lot about the hindu scriptures as well which i was surprised to learn. He told me about the Nirmal panth and the confusion of the origins. That the 5 Sikhs were refused sanskrit knowledge because they were non-brahmins. He also told me that generally it was accepted by the nirmala that the Sikhs received the knowledge at Kashi and returned to Damdama Sahib as such. Now he could be wrong and he could be right. He only knew what his teacher told him. But he also told me to apply logic to this argument to see which one was more feasible. Like I have previously asked, what higher knowledge is contained inthe sanskrit texts that you cant find in the Aad Guru Darbar or Dasam Guru Darbar? What Knowledge was there that Akali Guru Nanak Dev jee to Akali Guru Gobind Singh didnt know that it was required for Sikhs to journey to Kashi to receive? What answers does the Sanskrit texts have that the AGD and DGD dont have? Why when the Brahmins for 3 yugs refused to impart sanskrit texts to non brahmins would they do so in the yug of Kal? Why would brahmins who jealousy guarded the scriptures to which they thought Brahma gave only them the right to read, start sharing them with non-brahmins? Why would Guru Ji after the revealing the Bara Maha paath twice after the brahmins refused to perform this sewa suddenly concern himself with sending Sikhs to Kashi? Would this not make Kashi the highest learning seat of the Sikhs? If the Kshatriyas of the hills refused to emrace Sikhi cos of the low castes, what chance wiv the brahmins and their attitude to the non-brahmins? If you look at the Nirmalas now with the face paint is that something any of our Guru did? Is it something that the 5 Sikhs who went to Kashi did? Generally it is accepted that the 5 Sikhs dressed in orange clothes and removed thier 5 Ks. Is this something Akali Guru Gobind Singh would approve of? Akali Guru Gobind Singh said 1 Singh will be visible in thousands of people. So would Akali Guru Gobind Singh have approved of these Sikhs dressing as brahmans? and thus hiding their appearnce which he said was paramount ? Akali Guru Gobind Singh warned Sikhs of bipran ki reet. Look at the nirmala now with their face point, do you think of Akali Guru Gobind Singh when you see a nirmala or a brahman? Have they not taken the Sikhs into Bipran ki reet? So many question , only one chatanga please dont read this and think i have no respect for Nirmala. I do, but only those who conform to the teachings of the Guru Granth and Guru Panth. Any answers to these quesitions from you gurmukhs will be gladly received. if im worng then i beg forgiveness. Victory to the Panth chatanga

dont be a child dynamic. Thats a really childish response. you havent answered or volunteered any thoughts on what ive written and instead wrote something really stupid, which when others read will think that nihangs and thier supporters have no reason or logic. Thats what s wrong wiv Sikhs today. Ask a question and they say something really dumb. chatanga

Fateh everyone THe katha of sooraj prakash by Bhai Jangbir Singh is amazing. The katha is about the seige of Anandpur Sahib, and listning to it will bring out the bir rass in you. The whole katha by Jangbir Singh is very emotive and bir rassia. PLease listen to it. victory to the panth chatanga

dont beleive everything about the nihangs cos they certainly arent a patch on the old traditional nihangs. The traditional nihangs were not afraid of death or upsettng the authorites ike the new one are. Also the nihangs gave thier lives for the protection and welfare of the Granth and Panth. Now they believe they ARE the panth. I could go on and on. But This please everyone debate. In the last 20 or so years wherever the Aad Guru Darbar has been desecrated the Nihangs have never showed thier faces. Why ? In the early 80s the police attacked Baba Kirtan Singh Jee's shauni at Amritsar and killed 4 nihangs. Did anyone from Budha Dal turn up to find out what happened? No. The only people to make a stand on this was Sant Jarnail Singh of Bhindra and Baba Nihal Singh of the Harian Wela Taruna Dal. Where were the others? What About Baba Sant Singh's stance on the kar sewa after Bluestar? The Nihang samprdaye fell in estimation in the eyes of the Panth. Also go back to the artcile ive submitted on the Udasi panth. Where were the protectors of the panth when the udasis were killing or raping memers of the sangat? Rupz you say this group hasnt changed. please read this sshort story. One day at Darbar Sahib a brahmin came and started crying that his wife had been taken by the soldeirs of the subedar of kasur. Lehna Singh Bhangi and all the other sardar who were sitting and eating langar at once stood up, and mounting their horses prepared for war. They attacked Kasur and brought back the brahmins wife. Now could you ever see Baba Santa Singh Jee or any of the other Nihang Singh making a similiar stand in todays times if the son of the Punjab Chief Minister kidnapped a girl?

Also the origins of the budha dal is highly dubious. To think that Budha dal is named after baba Budha Jee is ludicrous. Akali Guru Hargobind Jee was jaani jaan. Just as Akali Guru Nanak Dev Jee's teachers couldnt teach him anything becasue he already knew everything, how could the much repsected Baba Budha Jee teach Akali Guru Hargobind about shastars and Jang. Akali Guru knew it all already. The Budha dal came into existence after Nawab Kapur Singh divided Dal Khalsa into 2 units Budha and Taruna Dal. Budha Dal was to focus on prachaar and maintenance of guru asthans, and lastly on battel, wheraes the Taruna Dal focused more on battle and protecting the "Mazlooms". Something that Budha dal today could never do. They call others melach, but they need to look at themselves first. victory to guru panth and guru granth. chatanga

Fateh everyone Please dont read shastarvidya and believe all of it is true. Some of it is and it is good, but some of its just rubbish. Some of its just lies. these people have made a mockery of the Taksal chapter of Mehta bhindra. They refuse to belive the tape that Sant Gurbachan Singh recorded giving sewa of taksal to Kartar Singh. Also the stuff on Baba Banda Singh is just pure jealousy. And why brand radha swami and narakdharis as part of the panth, especailly because of the narakhdhari involvement in stoking a fire that claimed thousands of lives. If those people hadnt had a meeting in amritsar how different ould things be inthe panth today? These people are liars, and conceited lars at that.

Dear Rupz. dont beleive everything about the nihangs cos they certainly arent a patch on the old traditional nihangs. The traditional nihangs were not afraid of death or upsettng the authorites ike the new one are. Also the nihangs gave thier lives for the protection and welfare of the Granth and Panth. Now they believe they ARE the panth. I could go on and on. But This please everyone debate. In the last 20 or so years wherever the Aad Guru Darbar has been desecrated the Nihangs have never showed thier faces. Why ? In the early 80s the police attacked Baba Kirtan Singh Jee's shauni at Amritsar and killed 4 nihangs. Did anyone from Budha Dal turn up to find out what happened? No. The only people to make a stand on this was Sant Jarnail Singh of Bhindra and Baba Nihal Singh of the Harian Wela Taruna Dal. Where were the others? What About Baba Sant Singh's stance on the kar sewa after Bluestar? The Nihang samprdaye fell in estimation in the eyes of the Panth. Also go back to the artcile ive submitted on the Udasi panth. Where were the protectors of the panth when the udasis were killing or raping memers of the sangat? Rupz you say this group hasnt changed. please read this sshort story. One day at Darbar Sahib a brahmin came and started crying that his wife had been taken by the soldeirs of the subedar of kasur. Lehna Singh Bhangi and all the other sardar who were sitting and eating langar at once stood up, and mounting their horses prepared for war. They attacked Kasur and brought back the brahmins wife. Now could you ever see Baba Santa Singh Jee or any of the other Nihang Singh making a similiar stand in todays times if the son of the Punjab Chief Minister kidnapped a girl? I await your answer. im a chatanga of the panth and granth forgive any bhul

Amrit is to be taken from panja pyare only. taksal akj or nihung .

Its not an uncredible reason for Khalistan either. Theres nothing wrong in supporting or wanting Khalistan. Theres are many plus positives and negatives for having our own country, just like there are for staying under Indian rule. But the bottom line is that the only way to solve this is through a plebiscite which is what the SIkhs asked for thru-out the 1980s and 1990s but were met with bullets and torture.

Fateh to all as far as im aware Banda Singh wanted to hold out against the siege whereas Binod Singh favoured making an assault on the moghuls as a possible way of escaping. Banda Singh and Binod agreed that whoever wanted to stay could and whoever wanted to leave with Binod Singh could. From what i read and been told Binod Singh and his jatha left the fortress but found the moghul army numbers overwhelming and they became shaheed in this battle. After this Banda Singh and his army stayed upo to point of starvation whereupon the moghals forced entry to the fortress. Even then Banda Singh put up a fight only to find the whole fortress overrun. As for Baaj Singh being arrested elsewhere ive nevr heard of it, but sure its a point worth looking into. Other Sikhs were arrested by the moghals and taken to Delhi, but these were mainly Sikh villagers and shopkeepers etc, not combatant Sikhs. Some were combatants undoubtledly but not all forgive this chatanga

we might argue amongst ourselves and fight amongst ourselves but that is no different to any other nation relgion on this earth. Any country you think of there is always conflict even between brothers. Also think how under the Khalsa Raj the desecration of the Gloden temple stopped by invaders . Or defecneless girls were carried off to Afghaniustan. Being rulers is better than being ruled . again I say its better to live 1 day as a free man tha nto live 100 hundred days as a slave. i bleive that Malcolm X said something similiar at one time. dont misunderstand when i say the state will back the religion. Vinegar do youbeliev that Akali Guru Teg Bahadur gave his life for the freedom of the hindus to worship? if you do belive this then tell me why for the last 50 odd years the indian govt have being teching children that Guru Ji was a rebel who was against auranzeb and so he was executed. If we had our ouwn state we could at least tell the studetns the truth about what happened. we could protec our religion in this way, thats what i mean about having the state back the religion.

lot of thinking of after thought and not of present. it is better to live 1 day free than 100 days as a slave. is Khalistan needed? if we want to protect our religion the having a state to back it up is a very big bonus. if we want our youths to live then also its a bonus. If we dont want thousands of our people killed and for the murderers to escape justcie then we need our own state. within the borders of india or outside, but Khalsa raaj is a neccesstiy.

Ive listened to Nihangs and stuff and they always criticise Baba Banda Singh on the death of ordianry citizens. Jealsousy. However in the history that I read about Baba Banda Singh in the battle of Sirhind sent a letter to Wazir Khan telling him to prepare for battle and informing him to let non-combatants leave the city. However Wazir Khan mader his preparation from outside of the city beleiving that he would be successful against Banda Singh army who were inferior in numbers and weaponry. When the tyrants were beaten back there was no way out for the non-combatants. Has anyone read anything similiar ? Also another point that is worth making is that the nihangs always bang on about Banda Singh and how the nihangs went against him and so on. The 5 advisors that the nihangs says were given actual control of the panth Baaj Singh Binod Singh etc these leaders of Akali Nihang 96 crore Singh Budha Akali Dal Singh Maharaj Singh were with him to the last. Binod Singh only seperated from Banda Singh on a matter of tactics at Gurdas Nangal, not that he had any other point of contention with Banda Singh. The Nihangs claim that Binod Singh was the first leader of the panth and Budha Dal after Akali Guru Gobind Singh. So if Banda Singh was a traitor so was Binod Singh and Baaj Singh, who died alongside Banda Singh in Delhi. forgive this chatanga if i make any mistakes.

n30 singh I wish to state that you and me as part of the gurdwara community have a responsibility to educate those people. Wand shakna is not just about feeding people, its about sharing your knowledge and skills. ie shastarvidya or gurmat sangeet skills as well.

Here is an article of Udasi Panth. PLease read and give your views. The Udasis Udasi panth is an order of Sikhs which was founded by the elder son of Guru Nanak, Baba Sri Chand. The term Udas means to wander. The foundation of this samprdai was laid by Guru Nanak Dev Ji when he went travelling around the world and preaching against false worship and spreading the true religion – the religion of Naam. After Guru Ji came back to Kartarpur to settle down he handed over this mission of wandering and spreading true religion to his eldest son Sri Chand. After the Guruship passed to Bhai Lehna – Guru Angad, Baba Sri Chand left to continue this mission. This he did with great zeal, and took the teachings of Guru Nanak all over India and into Afghanistan. There is a big Gurdwara in Kabul to commemorate Baba Ji’s visit there. It is sometimes said that Baba Sri Chand did not obey his father, and this is why he was not made the next Guru but this is not true. The Gurgaddi was always given on merit. In Guru Nanak’s tests Bhai Lehna always came first. Baba Sri Chand composed the Arta in praise of his father and Guru, Guru Nanak. This is a much overlooked fact. Baba Sri Chand had no other Guru than Guru Nanak. Udasis consider themselves the followers of Guru Nanak and his successor Gurus. However during the time of the 2nd and 3rd Guru, Baba Sri Chand and his followers stayed away from the Guru’s Darbar. Baba Sri Chand visited the 4th Guru Ramdas at Amritsar and was defeated by his humility, and bowed to him. The Udasi panth from this point became an integral part of the Sikh panth. Guru Hargobind visited Baba Sri Chand at Kartarpur (Pakistan), and gave his son Baba Gurditta, to become the first disciple of Baba Sri Chand from among the close relations of the Sikh Gurus. After this, Guru Hargobind sent the Udasis into the hills in eastern and northern Panjab to spread Sikhism. They also offered their services to Guru Gobind Singh and were permitted to take part in the battle at Bhangani in 1688 AD. There were 4 initial chapters of Udasis, and a further 6 chapters where initiated by the later Gurus, totalling 10 chapters of the Udasis. At this point there was little difference between the Sikhs and Udasis. The differences were the uniform, as the Udasis were exempt from wearing the Sikh uniform of the 5 k’s although they were Kesadhari. The Udasis also did not marry, or hold any property. Apart from this they had firm conviction in the 10 Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In the post Guru Gobind Singh period, when Sikhs were being persecuted the Udasis became custodians of Gurdwaras and could preserve Sikhism as its zealous preachers since they were spared persecution, as they did not wear the symbols of Sikhs. In the darkest days of Sikh history these selfless Udasi Sikhs kept the torch of Sikhism burning. Today in Sikhism there is little place for the Udasis. This was not always the case. Prior to the period of the Singh Sabha movement (the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries), the Udasi panth enjoyed considerable prestige, under the Sikh Gurus, and then the Sikh rulers of the Punjab. The eclipse of asceticism in general and of the Udasis in particular reflects the convictions of the Tat Khalsa. This was due to the moral and spiritual decline of the Udasis. They began to treat Gurdwaras as personal property and in order to solicit larger donations began to allow idol worship and other non-Sikh practices. They even went so far as to install idols in the Golden Temple and other places like Tarn Taran and Nankana Sahib so as to encourage the Hindus to worship there. Their control of the Gurdwaras ended when their activities were no longer tolerated by the Sikhs. The Sikhs went to confront the Udasis after a Sikh revealed how his 13 year old daughter had been raped by the Udasis at Nankana Sahib. This was one of many incidents involving the Udasis and their treatment of devotees. At the holy place of Tarn Taran the Udasis used to keep their liquor cool by keeping it in the Amrit sarovar. At Tarn Taran Sahib also the Udasis drowned a 10 year old boy in the sarovar, and raped his older sister. His parents were threatened with death if they complained. The Udasis introduced dancing girls and prostitution in the Gurdwaras they controlled. Because they were protected by the government of the time, they were not afraid of the wrath of the Sikhs. But after the parents of the young girl who was raped at Nankana Sahib went to a meeting of Sikh sympathisers, the Sikhs decided to take prompt action, no matter what the consequences. They marched to Nankana Sahib to free the Gurdwara from the clutches of the non-believers. The turning-point of the campaign came when the Udasi Mahant of Nankana Sahib caused the massacre of a large group of Sikhs, an event that branded all Udasis as the enemies of the Khalsa. After this the Udasi way was banished to the outer fringes of the Sikh Panth with many Sikhs refusing to accept them as their co-religionists. Their lifestyle was by this time very different from that of the traditional Udasis. They had completely left the mission that Guru Nanak had started and that Baba Sri Chand had strengthened. Once the Udasis were relieved of the Gurdwaras they began to re-write history by claiming that the Udasi panth was not started by Guru Nanak or Baba Sri Chand, but had started from Bhagwan Shiv Ji. They claimed the Baba Sri Chand had become an Udasi, he had not started it nor had Guru Nanak. Even now generally the Udasis will claim that the Udasi panth started way before Baba Sri Chand. They have their own places of worship which they call Akharas. In the Akharas they perform all the traditional worship as Sikhs do, reading Guru Granth Sahib Ji and deg, doing chaur, langar etc. But they have retained the Hindu practices that their predecessors had started such as worshipping idols and doing arti with lamps etc. The amazing thing is that the Udasis claim to be very versed in the scriptures of the Sikhs, where it says time and time again do not worship idols, and the true arti is that of Naam. But they still practice worship which the Guru Granth Sahib says is worthless. When they are asked about this they will claim that these are ancient practices that started before Sikhi. This is a pathetic answer. But unfortunately the Udasi panth has taken a very strong Hindu lean. Most of the Udasi are more versed in Hindu scriptures than Sikh scriptures. Manmat has taken over this samprdai. Neither Guru Nanak Dev Ji nor Baba Sri Chand performed any idol worship, or arti with lamps. In the historical meeting of Anandpur Sahib in 1973, the Sikh panth agreed that the status of the Udasi panth should be reinstated and from that time on they have again been accepted as part of the Sikh nation. They have many of their own centres around India including one at the Golden Temple, where they are regularly seen. The Udasis form less than 1% of the Sikh panth. The Udasis still perform idol worship although Guru Nanak and the Guru Granth Sahib forbid this. Also they look on Guru Nanak as an incarnation of Vishnu, and Baba Sri Chand as an incarnation of Shiv Ji, and Guru Nanak's youngest son Lakhmi Das as the incarnation of Brahma. This is not in line with the teachings of Sikhism. From once being the foremost preachers of Sikhi, and the protectors of the Gurdwaras when the panth was passing through terrible times, it is so sad to see that the Udasi have come to the state that they are. Translation of the arta composed by Baba Sri Chand in honour of his father and Guru, Guru Nanak Dev Ji : "Let us sing the praises of Nanak, King of kings of both worlds The whole world is His temple, congregations sing sweet songs in His praise Millions of goddesses kindle holy lights in His honour All the gods sing psalms of His praises All wash His lotus feet The Sun and moon illuminate Him with their radiance He is garlanded with mountains of flowers The True Master, the fountain of Light is merciful to the poor The king of the winds fans Him while saints and sages meditate on His holiness The whole universe vibrates with His celestial song The bells ring out - Onkar Continuously illuminating the heavens He is one with God whose name is Truth In Nanak saints find their support Siri Chand, Nanak's son, declares Nanak is unattainable, unfathomable, unshakeable and pure Whoever sings Emperor Nanak's praises resides in heaven and achieves complete salvation Oh kind master: give protection to those who seek your shelter. Oh Nanak: You are the saviour we are just your children" Thanks for reading Victory to the Panth chatanga

Dearest Vinegar, my point is that people actualy believe that it IS Guru Sahib, and they pray to it and do matha to it.

No vinegar that is not my point. My point is that other people are reading and believing that it is essential for a nirmala to have knowledge of these sanskrit texts. i disagree. Reading other books for knowledge is nothing wrong. But they are not on a par wiv Aad Guru Darbar or Dasam Guru Darbar. Do you agree wiv this ?

what does rasia hove musk ka have to do wiv people mistakenly bowing to pics and thinking these are our gurus? If someone savors a fragrance, then he can truly appreciate its flower. The flower is the Word and the fragrance is peace of mind. chatanga

I have looked at shastarviday website and i dont believe all of it. some of it is good, but some of it is...

Sometinmes various jathes or samprdayes try to pass off something as oral traditions state this and that especaiilly the nihangs. Same to point with the nirmalas. The 5 Sikhs who went to Kashi were refused sanskrit vidya becasue of thier caste. They retunred to Akali Guru Gobind Singh and received the vidya from him, and henceforth Damdama Sahib was also known as Guru Ki Kashi. Kashi of the Sikhs. What answers does the sanskirt texts have that Aad Guru Darbar or Dasam Guru Darbar dont have? Ask yoursleves and the whole issue of this samprdaye will become clearer.