tonyhp32

For someone who complains about Sikhs not knowing their history, you have a very low grasp of Sikh history yourself. The Jats didn't dominate Sikhi just after the Singh Sabha, they had become a majority in Sikhism by the time of Guru Hargobind. A majority of the Misl leaders were Jats, the ones in Sialkot and Gujranwala fought and beat both the Muslim Jats and Rajput to take over these areas. The ones in Doaba beat Muslim Rajputs and Afghans to control Doaba and the ones in Malwa beat Muslim Rajputs in Sirsa-Hissar area. The Hindu Rajput of Doaba was sitting on his backside changing one master for another. 
As for the battles between the Brars and Sikhs, the Sikhs would have been for the most part Jats from Majha. 

Sant Jarnail Singh was Brar Jat but then so was the traitor who took Gandhi's order to attack the Golden Temple. There's good and bad in all. It wasn't just some Jats of Malwa that were bad, there was quite a few Jat Chaudhris of Majha from the time of Mir Mannu who had made common cause with him and used to hunt for Sikhs in their areas and send them to Lahore for execution.

Sant Jarnail Singh was Brar Jat but then so was the traitor who took Gandhi's order to attack the Golden Temple. There's good and bad in all. It wasn't just some Jats of Malwa that were bad, there was quite a few Jat Chaudhris of Majha from the time of Mir Mannu who had made common cause with him and used to hunt for Sikhs in their areas and send them to Lahore for execution.

Yeah and Obama is your massarh and you are Modi's sala. Give it a rest man, you're becoming a joke. 

Sant Jarnail Singh was Brar Jat but then so was the traitor who took Gandhi's order to attack the Golden Temple. There's good and bad in all. It wasn't just some Jats of Malwa that were bad, there was quite a few Jat Chaudhris of Majha from the time of Mir Mannu who had made common cause with him and used to hunt for Sikhs in their areas and send them to Lahore for execution.

Sant Jarnail Singh was Brar Jat but then so was the traitor who took Gandhi's order to attack the Golden Temple. There's good and bad in all. It wasn't just some Jats of Malwa that were bad, there was quite a few Jat Chaudhris of Majha from the time of Mir Mannu who had made common cause with him and used to hunt for Sikhs in their areas and send them to Lahore for execution.

JungChamkaur the keyboard Hindu soorma from Nawashahar
 

Look at what's happening to the Yazidis in Iraq. An exact replica of what the Muslims did to the Sikhs and Hindus in West Punjab. Maybe if the Yazidis had been recruited into Saddam's army maybe their villages would have had ex-military people to defend themselves when IS attacked. 

Look at what's happening to the Yazidis in Iraq. An exact replica of what the Muslims did to the Sikhs and Hindus in West Punjab. Maybe if the Yazidis had been recruited into Saddam's army maybe their villages would have had ex-military people to defend themselves when IS attacked. 

Look at what's happening to the Yazidis in Iraq. An exact replica of what the Muslims did to the Sikhs and Hindus in West Punjab. Maybe if the Yazidis had been recruited into Saddam's army maybe their villages would have had ex-military people to defend themselves when IS attacked. 

This has to be the funniest conspiracy photo that I have seen. So the Indian 'intelligence' rather than using Hindu officers of which there are many in the Indian army and who could easily pass off as Muslims given the nature of the work use Sikhs who can be easily identified but also use two Sikhs who then use brightly coloured turbans while 'covertly' training the TTP.  Really don't know who are the idiots here, the indian intelligence who came up with the idea if the photo is of Sikhs  or the hindu fool who uses this photo to prove how great indian intelligence agencies are!! 

Singh 2 wrote-;



Below is from a paper written by Amar Singh Jhubal's grandson. For someone who keeps trying to talk up Jhubal you don't know much about him.



Singh 2 wrote-;


You gave a reference from a mickey mouse website. There was no Jathedar at Akal takht from the time of the British annexation until Teja Singh Bhuchar was made jathedar by the Akalis in 1920. You were asked to give a reference and you have failed miserably. I am surprised that MDS and Shaheediyan haven't been able to pull out any references. So it looks like Sahib Singh and his Nihangs attempted to seize the Akal Takht from the Akalis who had only a few days before taken it over from the Pujabris who were under the control of the Sarbrah. The Nihangs came from Burj Akali Phoola Singh which is over a mile away from Akal Takht. Under the Sarbrah the Nihangs like other Sikhs could visit Akal Takht but they had no special status or custodianship over it. This is history.

I would expect Neo to apologise for speading the bukwas story told to him by a Nihang that the Akali removed Sahib Singh from Akal takht of which he was the Jathedar and used women to beat him as they knew that he would not fight back against the women. That story has been shown here to be false. Over to you Neo.

Singh2,

Please stop spreading your ignorance. Amar Singh Jhubal joined the Congress party in 1919 and was instrumental in organising the grass roots of the party in rural areas of Punjab but mostly in Amritsar district. While the Akali movement was at it's height, he was the president of the District Congress Committee for Amritsar district. How else could the party of Banias and Brahmins get so strong amongst Sikhs in Punjab. It was due to the organising abilities of people like Jhubal that by 1946 elections in Punjab the Congress won 10 seats reserved for Sikhs whilst the Akali Dal won only 23 reserved Sikh seats. You obviously have some sort of agenda and a poor sense of history. You want to push back the Jhubal involvement with the Congress to the 1940s as that was when it became common for many Sikhs to associate with the Congress but Jhubal was one of the main reasons that Congress got such strong support from Sikhs. While the Muslim vote was being consolidated in the Muslim league, the Sikh vote was being divided and thus ensured that Nehru could treat the Akali Dal as a minor party as he could count on his puppets like Jhubal the original 'Congressi Sikh'

Why do you persist like a broken record to bring up writings from the 1830s when they are not relevant to the question at hand. You jump from the 1830s to 1984 as if that will prove the point. For each Nihang in 1984 who did something positive for the Panth there were ten others who went with the government. Sahib Singh in 1920 and Santa Singh in 1984, both sought to subvert the Sikh movements of their day, both sought to bring back the Nihang Jathedari over Akal Takht. The Sikhs in 1920 were able to get their hands on Sahib Singh and beat his ambition out of him. No doubt given the anger of Sikhs at Santa Singh's antics, had they been able to get pasr the cigarette smoking CRPF security of Santa Singh whilst he was at Akal Takht they too would have beaten him senseless.

But lets not divert the thread. Either provide proof of a Nihang Jathedar being in charge at Akal Takht in 1920 or shut up. It's that simple.

For those interested in reading the one sided account of how bad and evil Kartar Singh Jhabbar was you can read the whole paper here-;

http://export.writer.zoho.com/public/adhillon/Akal---Independence-Movement---Liberation-of-Gurdwara-Tarn-Taran1/fullpage

Just remember that the writer is the grandson of Amar Singh Jhubal. Read how he places the whole blame for the clash at Tarn Taran on Kartar Singh Jhabbar and exonerates the Pujaris who had assaulted a woman at the complex a few days before and who had filled the complex with their hired goons many of whom were drunk.

Singh2,

The fact that Nihangs were custodians at Akal Takht during the time of Akali Phula Singh is NOT in dispute. Your posting of reports from the early eighteenth century serves no purpose. What is in dispute is that in 1920 there was a Nihang who was the Akal Takht jathedar and who was manhandled out of his hereditary role by Akalis when they took over the Akal Takht. As of yet, no concrete evidence has been presented.

As for your quote about the activities of Kartar Singh Jhabbar, there were two factions in Akali Dal who although they agreed on the need to liberate the Gurdwaras, disagreed on the methods and time frame. On faction wanted to involve M K Gandhi and adhere to his sanctimonious advice that the liberation of the Gurdwaras should be postphoned until India got it's independence. Kartar Singh Jhabbar was amongst the faction that thought that it would be harder to liberate the Gurdwaras with a Hindu government in place rather than under the British.

FYI Amar Singh Jhubal was on the congress side and he was instrumental in creating congress committees in Punjab. With the recent attempts to rewrite history and portray the Akali movement as illegitimate, so some family members of Jhubal are attempting to rewrite history to reduce the role of leaders like Kartar Singh Jhabbar. Whereas as most of the Akali leaders suffered all or a majority of their imprisonment for the Akali movement, Amar Singh Jhubal, out of nearly 5 years imprisonment only went to prison for three months for the Akali movement and the rest of the time for activities linked with the Congress party of Gandhi and Nehru.

Interesting enough in the quote you gave from "Real Story of Liberation of Gurdwara Tarn Taran" where the author spares no attempt to malign Kartar Singh Jhabbar, even he does not use the sanatan myth of the Nihang jathedar being kicked out of Akal Takht.

Shaheediyan,

Have a read of Amritpal Singh's site and you will know why I made that statement. Propogating fairy stories about a Nihang jathedar sitting in Akal Takht in 1920 and being thrown out by the Akalis are some of the myths that are being told by Nihangs and starry eyed kids in the west. You, MDS and Maha Singh attempted to show that the aggression was on the part of the Akalis and that they were ending the Nihang jathedari from the times of Guru Hargobind. No evidence apart from some grainy images proving nothing were provided. The likelihood is that Nihang custodianship of Akal Takht ended after Akali Phula Singh while Maharaja Ranjit Singh was still ruling over Punjab. The British just continued the trend of government appointed Sarbrahs until the Akalis took over in 1920.

Is this the same Kirpal Singh who went on Indian TV after Bluestar and LIED that the Akal Takht had not been damaged? What I was seeking was a contemporary account from someone who visited the complex around the time of the Akali takeover and who confirms that there was Nihang Jathedar at Akal Takht. It shouldn't be difficult given the number of newspapers that were published at that time. What I provided was evidence from 1859 when the document relating to the administration was created and there is no mention of Nihangs at all as having any role in the administration of the complex! I also provided evidence from a contemporary accounts of the takeover which state that the Nihangs tried to take over the Akal Takht on behalf the ousted Pujaris. You may argue that these accounts are biased because they are from Akali leaders who took part but even where writers wanting the defame Kartar Singh Jhabbar such as the grandson of Amar Singh Jhubal they have not given the story about the beating of the Nihang Jathedar when such a story would greatly assist the writer's case.

Singh2,

For the last time will you stop regurgitating the same old quotes prior to 1849. Do you not know the difference between 1849 and 1920?

Proving you to be ignorant is getting boring now. The article by the grandson of Jhubal, he should know more about his father than you would.

http://share.zoho.com/preview/writer/66266000000006005/Sardar%20Amar%20Singh%20Jhubal-%20A%20Stalwart%20of%20Akali%20and%20Independent%20Movements

The Nihangs had the control over Akal Takht during the Misl days not because they were viewed as having had some great commission from Guru Gobind Singh but as they belonged to a Misl that did not seize lands as the other Misls did, they could be seen as being neutral in the disputes between the different Sardars and Misls. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had no need for a neutral force as he had taken over the other Misls and hence sometime during the later years of reign (possibly after the death of Akali Phula Singh) he did away with the Nihang custodianship of Akal Takht appointing his own Sardars as Managers of the complex, the one at the time of the British annexation being Lehna Singh Majithia. Your theory of the seperation of administrative and religious duties falls down flat when we consider that the person who was the manager of the complex during the days of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a member of a committee of Sardars that wrote the administrative document of 1859 and he makes no mention of Nihangs or Akalis as it does of Pujaris, Ragis and Rababis. The administration document covers Harmandir Sahib and Akal Bunga as well as some other Bungas in the complex.

Singh2,

So you know more that Jhubal's grandson about whether he joined Congress party in 1919. Thst just shows that what you lack in intelligence you make up for in ego.

The vast majority of the scheduled castes (83%)  in Punjab either belong to the Chamar or Chuhra castes. Chamar are also listed as Ad Dharmis. Whereas Chuhras are listed as either Balmikis or Mazhabis.
Ad Dharmis are not classed as a separate religion or even as a Hindu sect but as a caste and hence Adharmis can either report their religion as Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist as a scheduled caste person can only belong to these three religions.
Of 1,045,126 Ad Dhamis in Punjab in 2001, 882,738 (85%) returned their religion as Hindu and 133,114 (13%) were Sikhs. Although I don't have the numbers according to district but Ad Dharmis are a Doaba phenomenon and hardly found in Majha or Malwa. Chamars in Doaba tend to list themselves as Ad Dharmis in Doaba and just as Chamars in the rest of Punjab. Of 1,839,082 Chamars in Punjab, 1,309,377 (71%) were Sikhs and 526,863 (29%) were Hindus.  Chamars who are not from Doaba tend to Sikhs rather than Hindus.
The Chuhras who are listed as Balmikis are another phenomenon of Doaba althought Balmikis are also found in all the large cities of Punjab as well. Of 785,464 Balmikis in Punjab, 559,617 (71%)  were reported as Hindus and 223,885 (29%)  were Sikhs.  Of the 2,220, 945 Mazhabis, 2,188,429 (98.5%) were Sikhs and 32,329 (1.5%) were Hindus.
 

The vast majority of the scheduled castes (83%)  in Punjab either belong to the Chamar or Chuhra castes. Chamar are also listed as Ad Dharmis. Whereas Chuhras are listed as either Balmikis or Mazhabis.
Ad Dharmis are not classed as a separate religion or even as a Hindu sect but as a caste and hence Adharmis can either report their religion as Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist as a scheduled caste person can only belong to these three religions.
Of 1,045,126 Ad Dhamis in Punjab in 2001, 882,738 (85%) returned their religion as Hindu and 133,114 (13%) were Sikhs. Although I don't have the numbers according to district but Ad Dharmis are a Doaba phenomenon and hardly found in Majha or Malwa. Chamars in Doaba tend to list themselves as Ad Dharmis in Doaba and just as Chamars in the rest of Punjab. Of 1,839,082 Chamars in Punjab, 1,309,377 (71%) were Sikhs and 526,863 (29%) were Hindus.  Chamars who are not from Doaba tend to Sikhs rather than Hindus.
The Chuhras who are listed as Balmikis are another phenomenon of Doaba althought Balmikis are also found in all the large cities of Punjab as well. Of 785,464 Balmikis in Punjab, 559,617 (71%)  were reported as Hindus and 223,885 (29%)  were Sikhs.  Of the 2,220, 945 Mazhabis, 2,188,429 (98.5%) were Sikhs and 32,329 (1.5%) were Hindus.
 

Neo

When will you let up on the sanatan propaganda about when the Budha Dal was kicked out of Akal Takht. So those dastardly conniving and effeminate Akalis used women to beat up Budha Dal Jathedar knowing that he wouldn't attack women! I am sure there were soormay enough within the Akali Jathas who could have taken care of the Budha Dal Jathedar without the need to have women do the job. According to research, a third of the Akalis were former soldiers who had just fought in the battlefields of the First World War, so there would have no problem with finding volunteers to throw the Budha Dal Jathedar out. Read the life stories of Akalis like Kartar Singh Jhabbar and you might get a better feel for what the Akalis were like.

I challenged you on this story many years ago and then your only evidence for this story was that some Nihang had told you.

I think your fairy story is an insult to the thousands of Akalis who lost their lives, were injured and who lost their livelihoods and pensions to liberate the Gurdwaras from the Mahants. I think your fairy story is probably made up as an excuse to why the Nihangs stood by while their Jathedar was so unceremoniously kicked out of the Akal Takht.

If you are interested to know what the Akalis were like during the Gurdwara movement read this interesting article by T. Sher Singh.

http://www.sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?id=115&cat=18

Firstly it's very unlikely that any Sikh would become a Hindu although some through ignorance of Sikh teachings will take part in Hindu rituals. Even if one did it's very unlikely that Punjab would burn as you said but you are well known to make ignorant statements so there is nothing new here.

Vikram Singh Khalsa is just following the footsteps of those brave Hindus throughout history who in order to challenge tyranny and injustice joined the Khalsa Panth. The more docile and unadventurous Hindus remained Hindu. You are the progeny of that type of Hindu.

Doval was the bahman who negotiated the release of the three terrorists in order to save the lives of Indian passengers in Kandahar in 1999, One of those terrorists then planned the Mumbai massacre. So to save the passengers, Doval negotiated the release of three terrorists and one of them planned the Mumbai attacks which killed hundreds of people. Again such bahman cunning!

Firstly it's very unlikely that any Sikh would become a Hindu although some through ignorance of Sikh teachings will take part in Hindu rituals. Even if one did it's very unlikely that Punjab would burn as you said but you are well known to make ignorant statements so there is nothing new here.

Vikram Singh Khalsa is just following the footsteps of those brave Hindus throughout history who in order to challenge tyranny and injustice joined the Khalsa Panth. The more docile and unadventurous Hindus remained Hindu. You are the progeny of that type of Hindu.