BhagatSingh

I read snippets of Sarbloh Granth on Manglacharan.com. There was a passage that described Singh (khalsa) as the vehicle of Devi (the lion she rides) in there. The idea that Singhs have the support of Adi Shakti (which BTW means primal power). So perhaps the Singhs back then drew inspiration from this? I don't know. I am still researching this. Maybe it just so happened that the majority of people who became khalsa also happened to worship Adi Shakti? Maybe Guru Gobind Singh ji did as well? I don't know. What I do know is that the gurus, bhagats and sikhs whose bani is in Guru Granth Sahib did not worship Adi Shakti. And I know Banda Bahadur did not either.

Where is Navjot? Man his argument were laser-like. Kalijug You have to remember that this writing started with ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥ May Chandi be with you. ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕੈ... Prithm Bhagauti is Adi Shakti. Adi Shakti created : ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Khanda is the masculine energy (notice how its shaped like phallus, Talwar is curved so it represents feminine energy). Whereas Adi Shakti is feminine. After she created the masculine energy, they danced to create the world. (The worshippers of Shiv ji, for example, would not agree though, for them it was Shiv ji who came first and create everything else) In the world then you have: ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥ and Adi Shakti then also created: ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥ And gave strength to/was the strength of: ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥ ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥ And obviously someone who worships Adi Shakti will not worship Sri Ganesh, Sri Krishan or Sri Vishnu (Bishan). Those are all different religions. Worshippers of One God may respect the God of others but they never worship those other Gods. Similarly you may respect Allah or Jesus but you don't worship them. ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥ Now I praise Devi (the Adi Shakti) Under the above heading we find: ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ I don't consider Ganesh to be the supreme. And I never worship Krishna or Vishnu. I haven't read the entire thread, so I will post more when I do.

My thoughts exactly.

This may be true as they got married pretty young back then. He probably never had any children. Check this: Guru Sahib was 18 when He got married. Look at the dates of the birth of Sri Chand and Lakshmi Chand. He had children 7 years after he got married! Guru Nanak had children basically after He got a job and could support a family. He had the right environment. Baba Ajit Singh did not have that environment where he could focus on family life.

Just find it. We can do a read-together in a thread or something. EDIT: LINK REMOVED Jaikaara just sent me this link but I don't have the fonts and don't see where I can get them.

Again, whatever you think the "Hindu majority" is, and whatever you think their "whims and fancies" are, Sikhs are much better off in India than they are in UK.

I think there are plenty of warriors amongst us. Many of them have just adapted to other lifestyles and professions. I think activists are warriors to some extent, they certainly (need to) possess a warrior spirit but if you mean a soldier then what is there to fight against and fight for exactly? I mean terrorist attacks are VERY rare. I think more people die from the common cold than in terrorist attacks (don't quote me on that tho). And so such occurences don't present themselves as a big enough catalyst for the warriors to come forward.

You don't need to find a puratan swaroop, just get me any book that's out there that's on pdf. I have not been picking up physical books lately.

That link is not working. http://www.gurmatveechar.com/books/Puratan.Sri.Guru.Granth.Sahib.Da.Saroop.Dated%201714AD.%28GurmatVeechar.com%29.pdf Anyway, do you by chance have a pdf copy of Gurbilas Patshahi 6?

Why carry so much burden on your head? Let it go brother.

Is this what you are talking about? In reality, Nehru had not sent out any such directive, and in fact, Kapur Singh's case had been scrutinised by his own colleagues before he was dismissed.[27] You need to take a closer look at India. Sikhs are doing quite well back home. They are able to rise to positions like President and Prime Minister, and are present in every field, doing all kinds of things. In fact, we are much better off in India than we are in places like UK, US.

Your wife's goofing around man. Why you getting so annoyed lol?

Lol Imagine if you guys actually win it. You'd have more time to do simran! It seems that your wife being materialistic and all, is actually pushing you further and further towards spirituality. And I think you might come to see it as a blessing later. Now I want to go see one!

Banda was mostly likely a kshatriya, as he hunted when he was young. Hunting would not fit into the Brahmin's set of duties. Anyways, I'd be interested in seeing a study of his ancestory, and what our scholars think his caste is.

Just finished watching it. Lots of good info but at the same time, they didn't go as deep as I would have liked. Mostly because their knowledge of other traditions, which come up in Dasam Granth, is not enough to properly understand those areas. I hope that in the future our scholars will start looking more closely at other traditions before trying to make comparisons.

Dally You would have to look at his original clan name before he changed it to Singh, to know for sure. We know he is not a Dullat Jatt: One source claims that it is Mani Ram from Bhatt Vahis. We know Ram is a kshatriya clan. Also there's the Chibber's claim that he was a Kamboj (ਕੰਬੋ) - Kamboj was also a Kshatriya clan. Also, I am not talking about the whole sikh society here, I am talking about a particular portion of it that Dashmesh pita recruited into his army, those who became Singhs. So you have to remember that sikh composition may not represent the composition of Singhs because those are two different groups under different conditions. But anyway, even though, I believe most of them were kshatriya, there may have been other non-kshatriya clans amongst them.

Yeah but they seem pretty certain that Bhai Mani Singh was a kshatriya. And it fits into my theory that most if not all of the Singhs during Guru Gobind Singh ji's time were from Kshatriya background. And that it was later one during Banda's time when jatts and other peasants started becoming singhs.

Its possible I read this incorrectly So he's a kshatriya it seems. I stand corrected.

Dally ji I know lol. -- ------------------------------- Let me clarify this: This is incorrect. What they noticed was that there were two roles that required a strict code of conduct and specialization: Brahmin and Kshatriya. 3 and 4 included people who for one reason or another did not fit into 1 and 2. The Brahmin and the Kshatriya, and the many jobs that come under these categories require the individual do maintain a certain character and to possess certain skills and talents, to various degrees. So these became the top two tiers. The bottom two tiers were people who were not as talented, skilled, did not have the right character either or simply didn't want to be in the top tier. Thus they were not held up to the same standards as the top two tiers. The brahmin represents the qualities of the Sato gun. The kshatriya represents the qualities of Rajo gun. The gun they are associate with is related to their job duties. They also have the most amount of obligations in society. The weight of the whole society, their well-being rests on the Brahmin and Kshatriya. the Brahmins represent the intellectual progress of society. For example, India was leading the other countries in terms of knowledge and research, quite advanced in maths, astronomy, science, medicine and yoga. They were doing quite well in all areas and these ideas were being shared to other nations via trade routes, back and forth. All credit goes to the Brahmins. Btw when British invaded India they also attacked Brahmins in the intellectual arena. The product of that was Singh Sabha ideology. Now this was the ideal, of course, in the real world its quite messed up as Guru Sahib points out. Some people who should be Brahmins and kshatriya often get stuck in the bottom tier jobs. And some people who should not be taking those important roles end up in top tiers. He also realized that this cannot be fixed, and is quite natural for a system to have lots of diversity. But he did realize that he could obtain the most fearless kshatriya for his purpose if he could frame things in certain ways. He literally says, "I want to kill someone! Who is ready for it?" The madness alarmed everyone but it worked. Only the Kshatriya with the true spirit rose up. That's it for now. More on this later when it comes.

Do the victims of the riots deserve justice? Yes. Does 1984 mean India hates/hated sikhs? No Are they dehumanzing them? No Are Sikhs considered productive members of society? Yes very much so. All this victimhood is going to lead to more conflict. Fight for the justice but without being a victim. We are a strong group of people. We were wronged but we will not be victimized!

Good question! I also wana add some of my own related questions. Why is there a shift from doing simran of Ram naam to reading banis in teh first place? ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਬੋਲਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੋਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ There is a strong focus in Guru Granth Sahib, that we should do simran, kirtan (not what you think it is, its not singing, kirtan means to praise) and bhajans. There is no mention of reading banis (not that reading bani is bad, that's not what I'm saying). So most sikhs during this time, that's from Gurus 1- 9, if not 10, did not read banis. The focus is on obtaining the anahat bani, that is Unspoken bani, bani without any form that automatically comes from doing simran and such. And then you have the rehitnamas where reading banis enters the picture. Now reading banis is kinda similar to doing simran and kirtan. But why is there focus on reciting bani and not just on simran and kirtan? AND why is there a focus on reading bani rather than obtaining your own? Then much later Singh Sabha Britishwale come into the picture, take that a step further and make it into something that everybody has to do, and if you do not then they label you as the slow kid, sehajdhari lol. And like you said they added more banis. Why did they increase the amount of banis? and why was reading banis defined as the definition of a true sikh?

Sat The pressure isn't because of a "knot". The knot is just a metaphor for saying that higher wisdom is not yet available to the individual. The pressure arises because there is a chakra there, and when it activates it has carries certain sensations with it. Focusing your mind on the shabad I'm guessing here will lead you to cross the trikuti Yes and it will activate the trikuti as the energy rises above it. You are right that someone who has decided to follow the Bhagti Marg need not concern themselves with these things (they may if they want to but its not necessary). They only need to concern themselves with Waheguru and loving him. He loves to hear His name, that's why you should say His name. When you begin to love hearing His name deeply, then that's how you know that your Bhagti is going well.

Lol N30 i don't think you are joking. Did you write it Amarjeet?

jaikaara i have given you a in-depth reply here: http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/15254-caste-hierarchy-explained/ In short Caste hierarchy cannot be erased, you can only seek to purify it. I.e. get the right people (for the job) to do the job.

Disclaimer: The Caste Hierarchy cannot actually be explained away since its very complex. However I will attempt it anyway. Hopefully this sheds some light on the what's going on with the caste system. Jaikaara You can not erase the caste hierarchy. It is here to stay. Is a guru at the same level as his sikh? I don't think so. People are different, have different capabilities, interests, etc. Some fortunate others not so much, different environments. The list goes on, what it leads to are hierarchies. Some will acquire more or less knowledge, wealth, skills, strenght, agility, spiritual power, etc. So the system is inherently unequal. This is what the ancient sages were dealing with. You can not ignore caste hierarchies either because the experience of those on different levels are different. E.g if you are guru you will give one teaching to one level and another teaching to the second level. it's because their needs and capabilities are different. You'll see this Guru Granth Sahib. Granted there is an underlying theme e.g. "be detached from maya, meditate on Ram naam" that is for all castes, you are not going to tell a homeless, that your wealth will not go with you on death lol. That message is for the rich and wealthy. You are not going to tell a sudra to stop arguing about various philosophies and scriptures, that message is for the brahmin. Keep in mind: You are not a doctor if you were born to parents with doctorates. You are a doctor if you behave like one. Similarly you are not a brahmin if you were born to a brahmin mother, you are a brahmin only if you act like one, only if you contemplate Brahm. How do you manage a system that is inherently unequal? Well you can not simply shrug off the responsibility by saying everyone is equal. That doesn't work out since the differences and the problems that arise with those differences are very apparent. You need to tackle it keeping in mind the inequality in the system. So how to tackle it? well the ancient sages noticed there are essentially 4 kinds of people. 1. There are the knowledgeable and wise, who are focused on reading, memorizing, calculating, learning and/or contemplating. They are good at sharing, they live in full abundance. 2. There are brave and passionate, who are focused on tackling, going against an opposing force and/or training, They are physical and/or aggressive. They are also good at sharing, they live in partial abundance. 3.There are those who do not fit within the previous two categories because they are not as good at doing those things. They don't share, they live in little abundance. If not, this category also includes those who for some reason or another cannot fulfill the roles of the 1 and 2 categories even though they possess the right qualities. 4. There are those who do not possess the capabilities of the previous categories. If they do its hardly noticeable. They cannot give, are living in complete scarcity and so are constantly trying trying to acquire rather than to share. This category also includes those who for some reason or another cannot fulfill the roles of the 1 and 2 categories, even though they possess the right qualities. There is a hidden Nth category. The Enlightened, the one who as achieved Mukti, the Sadhu, Sant, Guru, Rishi, etc. Which is higher than the 1-4, no matter which category he came from. You can see the kinds of jobs 1-4 would be good at. 1. Philosophers, doctors, mathematicians, priests, scientists, economists, theologians... 2. Politcal leaders, athletes, soldiers, managers... 3. Businessmen and other related professions... 4. Labour jobs: artisans, carpenters, farmers... The specialties required for 1 and 2 are not required by 3 and 4. So people who do not possess the qualities of 1 and 2 end up in jobs 3 and 4. Now with people from 2 in positions of power. You want that power guided by the force of knowledge and wisdom, by people from 1. The people in 1 will be corrupted by positions of power in 2, and will be corrupted by the seeking of wealth in 3. So you want them living a simple life and outside the realm of power. But you still want them to guide people in 2, 3, 4 from the life of simplicity. The control is thus granted to 2. Where 2 takes guidance from 1. The king (kshatriya) takes guidance from the minister (brahmin). He maintains company with a learned one so that he can rule properly. It must be stressed that not all people in 2 (or 1) are in positions of power, in fact most are powerless. People in 3 should not be associated with the jobs in 1 and 2. Businessmen corrupt governments and research. When you turn ruling and learning into business you corrupt ruling and learning. Sometimes those in 1 and 2, especially 2, the kshatriya, the soldiers and bodyguards, who are jobless when there is no war. Large numbers of these kshatriyas then looked to other professions. Many became businessmen, many took on other jobs. The Gurus' ancestors were in this category. They had become traders though originally they were warriors from the ruling class. (There was a zeal in the 6th Guru and his grandson, the 10th Guru to return to being warriors and rulers.) The Gurus are also from the Nth class, thus being Kshatriyas are considered higher than brahmins. The Panj Pyarey were all Kshatriya. Their ancestors had adopted other professions during times of peace. Dharam Das' ancestors turned to farming. Himmat Chand Kahar's ancestors turned to trading. Mohkam Chand's ancestors turned to cloth printing. Daya Ram's ancestors also turned to trade. Sahib Chand's ancestors became barbers. Das, Chand, Ram are all Kshatriya clans. At some point in time they were warriors. When describing the state of affairs during his time Guru Sahib says. ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ दोहरा ॥ DOHRA ਬਿਪ੍ਰ ਕਰਤ ਭਏ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਬ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਬੈਸਨ ਕਰਮ ॥ बिप्र करत भए सूद्र ब्रिति छत्री बैसन करम ॥ The Brahmins acted like Shudras and Kshatriyas like Vaishyas. ਬੈਸ ਕਰਤ ਭਏ ਛਤ੍ਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਸੁ ਦਿਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ॥੨॥ बैस करत भए छत्रि ब्रिति सूद्र सु दिज को धरम ॥२॥ The Vaishyas started ruling like Kshatriyas and Shudras performed the priestly duties of Brahmins.2. During peacetime they turned to other trades however when the time came to fight teh Mughals, none of these kshatriya-turned-vaishya would step forth. This is why Guru Gobind Singh ji held the event at Anandpur where he ordered them to take up arms. He emphasized his own warrior ancestory, and wanted to see other kshatriya return to their roles and take up arms. And because he wanted to unite them, he gave them a new identity as kshatriya, ie one with long hair and beard, and the name Singh. Thus with Guru Sahib's policy you no longer belong to the Das, Ram or Chand clan, you now belong to the united Singh clan. So there was never an attempt to erase the hierarchy either. There were attempts to correct it. So those who were of a true Kshatriya nature would naturally step forth when asked for their life! (genius) And these 5 fearless would naturally make good leaders for the rest of the kshatriya hence Guru Sahib gave them leadership. That's it for now. I'll share more later. Bhulan chukan maaf karna