fatehsingh

Interestingly a similar topic came up in the Namdhari group a few weeks ago and so far it has gone unanswered as well. Basically the question was that in the currently available publications of the Sri Adi Granth Sahib there is a sentence that reads "Sudh Keechai" - Guru Arjan's Hukam for Bhai Gurdas to fix the Bani preceeding this sentence. I forgot which page it was on, 1393 I think. The question was that if there exists a Bir where this Hukam of the fifth Guru was fulfilled and the particular Bani's gramatical or poetic form was made 'Sudh'. It would be interesting to see if anyone knows of the existence of such a Bir.

That is so sickeningly true, it's not even funny.

Chatanga, Not hi-jacking the topic any furhter I would just quickly conclude that writers such as Saroop Das Bhalla etc have written that the Kachera was mathatek by Hanuman etc., so similarly the Kirpan was offered (in no way insulting as all deities are below the Satguru unless you're hindu-phobic) to Guru Gobind Singh. Instead of wasting kilobytes on here better finish reading the pracheen Panth Parkash you started and you will get the answer. Also see the pdf version of Suraj Parkash on the rarasahib.org site. No historical work is perfect but it is important to keep in mind that the writers had strived to write what they knew to the best of their abilities. As for 41st vaar, the author is some unknown character referred to as only some 'premi' in Mahan Kosh. How his work became part of the current compilation of Vaars is something that should be thoroughly investigated. Now back to the main topic, the Singh Sabha Sikhs started baptizing women by Khande Da Pahul in around 1898 or sometime around that (40-42 years after Namdharis did). Regardless, it is something that is necessary and all those who take the plunge deserve much respect. So my 1 cent would be to not get stuck up in history of Maryada, choose one path and stick o it!

Amardeep, According to Suraj Parkash and pracheen Panth Parkash, there was no such thing as a Khande Da Pahul. Guru Gobind Singh is said to have used a Kirpan, which he received from the Goddess at Naina Devi, to prepare the first Amrit. So it was technically a Kirpan da Amrit. I'm surprised the sewadaars you spoke to did not pick up on that. The so called 41st vaar is not accepted by Namdharis as Gurbani on par with Bhai Gurdas' Vaars (certified/approved by Guru Hargobind Sahib) so I cannot comment on that. Thanks for that link Shaheediyan, but Maryadas on various historical Takhats that are now SGPC controlled have been changing (not necessarily a bad thing) so what was written or believed at the time that article was written may be different now. Matheen, Are the caretakers of the Aswara Sahibs and Shasters also bibeki & vegetarians when you were there?

amardeep can you confirm that Hazur Sahib has now adopted both Jhatka in langar as well as Khande Da Pahul for women?

As per Twareekh Khalsa, Gianiji seems to imply that based on his research typically every major caste or 'Gote' today is guilty at one point or another of taking women of the lower castes into their own. Gianiji had given many examples, including the Rajya's Poot (Rajpoot) history in particular. But ofcourse this is from the 1920's publishing by Khalsa tract society so other Granths should also be consulted and there are a few contradictions starting from the title itself: "Twareekh 'Guru' Khalsa" printed on the cover vs. "Twareekh Khalsa" mentioned in the text itself. Also many foreign (english) words being used in the text.

Shaheediyan, when you said it didn't go down well with Sangat, which Sangat are you talking about? From what I understand clapping isn't done in Sangat because the Kirtan we perform is not showmanship. However I remember seeing a video once of when Baljit Singh was performing Raag for Sri Satguruji and Yogi Bhajan and one or two of his gora Sikh were also there. It was rather early and Yogiji just landed that day or the night before I think and came straight to the Asa Di Vaar so his fellow Sikh was rather tired and visibly falling asleep while listening to the Raag. And back then Baljit Singh hadn't become a lazy bum and was quite on his game back then and the Raag being performed on the Taar Shehnai was so melodious and the Sangat enjoyed it so much that after he stopped some people actually forgot where they were sitting and actually started clapping, abruptly waking up the gora Sikh, for like 2 or 3 seconds. And then they quickly realized where they were sitting and stopped. It was quite hilarious!

Mithr, when some re-born, ill-educated 2-year old goodsikhs started using their own mind instead of the teachings of the Satgurus they claim to believe in and started stopping people who legitimately (as per historical lineages in certain cases) use the Sri Adi Granth Sahib for better understanding of the Guru's Hukam from doing so, and went as far as acting like muslim talibans cursing and even beating up senior citizens twice or thrice their age, a complaint was rightly filed with the police. At that time it was learnt that the scotlandyard already had those sites under it surveillance after the regretful arrest of the misguided youths. I have no problem with, and in fact would encourage their initial move to stopping the taking the Adi Granth Sahib to do parkash in places where meat/alcohol is served. But as others have mentioned, some of the youths didn't know where to draw the line and went wayyy over-board. Thankfully it seems someone has spoken to them and they are now exercising adequate common sense. At the same time, however, it is rather something to think about, specifically for those claiming in the Granth Sahib as their Guru, that if they believe their Guru is 'Patit Pavan' and the same as the ten Gurus, then perhaps in the same way Guru Nanak was himself in the presence of thousands of immoral people that he converted to the righteous path throughout his life, should those who claim in Granth Sahib as their Guru not have enough Sharda to also accept that their Guru is doing the same and spreading knowledge to those immoral people who eat meat/drink alcohol? To the Namdharis atleast we believe this to be the case that it is infact the lack of reading/hearing Gurbani these days that has brought the Namdharis and Sikhs in general to the situation they are in. But ofcourse I appreciate the other side of the argument as well that most of those meat-eating/liquor drinking folks at wedding halls who usually pull a 420 stunt of growing their beards only for that one day are probably not the least capable of understanding Gurbani anyway, just like most Sikh youths these days regrettably, so in those cases it might be better to 'stop the bleeding' so to speak.

That site along with tapoban and R4G were also on the scotland yard's blacklist as hate sites about a year ago when some numbnut brainless drones decided to start 'rescuing' Granth Sahibs from people who do their Paths. Not sure how it is now but I guess once you make the list it takes a while to get off it especially with the kind of people on there.

I would agree with Shaheediyan. Damdama Sahib has been a central of learning and many Nirmalas and Gyanis of Gurbani from the region also became Namdharis, one of which had the great fortune of reading Path to Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji every morning. But the institute of Damda i.e. Taksal is certainly a more recent innovation (nothing wrong with it being new ofcourse.)

Can't find it in the Mahan Kosh either. Always wondered the same.

The 'evolution' theory of Granth Sahibs (Adi and Dasam) is not something Namdharis subscribe to. You are entitled to your opinion ofcourse. From what little I know about christianity, they believe the present form of the bible is how God intended it to be and is undoutably the true word of God, hence my conclusion of it being a considered by its followers a revealed text. So in other words they reject the older and obsolete versions of the text and the latest and greatest is the most reliable and hence the bible has 'evolved'. On the other hand the different versions of the Granth Sahibs are, by Namdharis atleast, all considered Gurbani equally. Same way as how Bhai Banno's Bir wasn't rejected or destroyed but just set aside as 'Another Version' but no less or more an 'Adi Granth Sahib' than the Kartarpuri Bir. Case in point, the tuk 'Mithr Piare Nu Haal Faqira/Murida/Gariba Da Kehna'. All three are considered accurate and are Gurbani. Even though you will only hear Namdharis recite 'Haal Faqira Da'.

I also agree that the way the 'panthic' establishments deal with them (i.e. accuse them of being guilty until proven innocent, the desi justice system!) is really saddening in this day and age. This only promotes ignorance and creates distrust towards the said establishments. Let's face it, when you can't even acknowledge the controversey behind the current 'kartarpuri bir' and the claimed existence of a 'damdama bir' that foundation after foundation in the past have raised concerns about, there's something not very right with the picture you're seeing. From Namdhari perspective, to 'share' something as shaheediyan had been waiting for the day lol, the 'authentic inconsistencies' or 'revisions' of the Granth Sahibs that would throw certain people into sea of doubt are seen as the genius of the Gurus. All are accurate and all are Gurbani. It is a shame that today most of them have been burnt or destroyed partly due to fear of people questioning Gurbani or coming to the conclusion Gurbani isn't a 'revealed text' like the bible. As such the research of Pashaura Singh and Piar Singh are definitely worth a read. Also read what their critics write about them and weigh the facts yourself. Banning research is never the answer. Please stick to the topic, any questions regarding my personal faith can be pm'd to me directly. thx FS

Apology accepted. I'm just as tired of coming up with sarcastic remarks. Good on u chatanga1 dude. Quite a change can be observed from Chatanga1 dude since he's taken Amrit. From a mere dumb bloke that didn't know crap but thought he knew everything to now someone who is making great progress and shows great interest in learning about Sikhism. In the words of a very learnt Namdhari Gyani, Sant Dhyaan Singhji: "vidya bin hangkaar, hau balhare tai jann". I portray myself at the feet of the scholar who shows no ego. Chatanga1 is definitely on his way there. Perhaps with a newer release of chantanga 2.0

Anytime. I am actually amazed to learn about the great kirpa of professor Surinder Singh in setting up the course work at the university level etc. if it wasn't for Kooka's chirpings, I'd have never known what a gem he really is. As I said in my first post, major credits to him. Also for some weird reason you seem to be having a bad hair (turban) day as I sense nothing but hatred and spite in ur comments. Rather unusual. Go drink some mango lassi, the heat's getting to you!

Thanks for chirping Kooka, or else Shaheediyan would have been hogging all this knowledge about the great strides and kirpa of professor Surinder Singh in this field and not share it with us here.

That plus a docterate or 'professor of Sikhism' title and you're set for life with guaranteed room and board plus 3 meals and all u can eat parshaad! All jokes aside and as weird as the course title may sound, its a very good thing there is such a class registered at a national level. Indians r definitely making the british pay the price for invading us by invading them back! Major credits to whoever got this done. it just gives people another incentive to learn Sangeet.

Shaheediyan, yes it is. Chatanga, were you able to understand punjabi when it was in the news in the 70's that a blind woman was able to recite the entire Granth Sahib from memorising a sentence every day? Chatanga I wasn't aware of Guru Gobind Singh doing that at all. Where is it written? If it is in Suraj Parkash, please provide the rut and page. it is available online from the rara sahib.com people. if it is in Pracheen Panth Parkash, please scan that page for me. How many days did it take to recite the entire Granth Sahib and had it noted down? Is this in Kesar Singh Chibbar's Gur Bilas Patshahi 10th as it is supposed to use Bhai Mani Singhji as its source? If so please scan the page or copy the text that says so. What a sea of knowledge you are!

Mithr pyare, nope. I don't agree with either the prof. who attacks Bani or the super-biased news organization that attacks the prof.

Yes. confirmed. Namdharis also treat all authentic Banis of Gurus equally. Also another Bani that is given special affection is Vaars of Bhai Gurdas as it has blessings of Guru Hargobind Sahibji. We don't believe in the added Vaar of the premi Gurdas II however.

Best would be to contact the sgpc people since they now have the monopoly over historical Gurdwaras and all its property.

lol seriously, who reads panthic.org? lol @ wannabe journalists. Aljazeera is less biased!

It is in Suraj Parkash and yes at least 1 person has become blind after defying Guru Gobind Singh's Hukam and doing its Path. The Bir was compiled by a Sadhu using expensive material and ink. It was given for Guruji's signature at Anandpur Sahib via Diwan Nand Chand. But Diwanji stole the Bir instead and when Guruji found out, the sharaap was given that anyone who does its path shall become blind. This Bir is also said to contain the Bani of the 9th Guru.

The guy also got feedback from people in the Namdhari group as well as soon as he advertised his link there. Pretty much all of his crappy points copied from ganda singh's books were refuted within 24-48 hrs of posting and he was an active member too back then. Not a single response. So don't hold your breath.

Karmjeet, Your next challenge as a daredevil-paathi is now to go find that Bir of Adi Granth Sahib that was given sharap by Guru Gobind Singh (hopefully it is still at Bhai Ki daroli and not done saskar of!) and do its sadharan path. The twist is when u become blind, no one will hear from u on this forum coz u won't b able to see ur keyboard! lol