Narsingha

There are entire sections on the websites explaining why we are bringing out this information...please read them..

Anyone have UT2004? perhaps this is a better choice...

Technically speaking, "Shaheedi Degh" is made accoridng to FULL maryada (ie, 5 leaves of cannabis, and with Bibecki Maryada, Pooja and Ardas). It is drunk as the deeds of the great Shaheeds are recalled. This is not intoxicating, and is more of a protein drink. The term "Sukha"/"Sukh Nidaan" can be used to refer to either "Shaheedi Degh", or "Degh" made with more cannabis, or "Degh" made without the full maryada, or "Degh" made for an individual, or a small group of Nihangs. "Bhang" is a generalised term (not often used by Nihangs themselves) that the Punjabis/Indians use to refer to an intoxicating drink made with cannabis. This is made during Nivratri, Shivratri, Pooranmashi, Diwali, Holi, etc...and traditionally this was drunk in the place of tea/alcohol during Sikh and Punjabi festivals...(ie, before the British Raj).

N30Singh, I have a bit of time before I tuck into my ham sandwich (from Pret a Manger). So here goes... I await your PM Mr N30Singh....and we will take things from there. After seeing your childish behaviour here, you will understand why I chose to speak to Nihang Gurmant Singh directly. We have been through this before many times...first with the fanatics amongst the AKJ, then with those loose cannons affiliated with the "Taksal". Like them, you do not present any evidence, and choose to slander and insult (either myself or Nihang Niddar Singh, or Baba Santa Singh). Whats next...are you going to blame us for the AIDS epidemic in Punjab? Now Mr N30Singh takes the uncanny step of chosing to bring my family into this so-called discussion. Congratulations my dear boy. Remember, the next step is usually creating a website that mocks the Nihangs who people do not like...I hope your HTML skills are up to it! Such actions simply prove that like your peers, you will chose to resort to personal insults when all else fails. N30Singh, you are not the first, and you certainly will not be the last to chose such an avenue in order to please your own vindictive nature.....perhaps in a few weeks I will be receiving a death threat from you too or a brick through the window? One more addition to the BBQ I am building at the back... An old saying, "knowledge is only poison to the ignorant"....and from your reaction, it seems to have cause acute toxicity within your nervous tissue. Now you seek to replenish yourself by targeting me personally....if it pleases you, please continue...lets see how Sikhs of today behave when confronted with history and traditions they find unpalatable. Do you thinkl that by insulting me or targetting me you will prevent knowledge from coming out? You fail to realise that you have lost the respect of many people by acting in such a low manner..... Once again, you fail to forget that the Websites presents the views of Sanatan Sikhs (Nihangs, Udhasis, Nirmalas and Seva Panthis) and historical evidence. Perhaps you think I am Giani Gian Singh, Rattan Singh Bhangu, Bhai Desa, Singh, or the numerous other sources that have been cited? Trust me, if these websites were going against Nihang sentiments as you claim, I would not have come back alive from visitng the Budha Dal Vaheer as all the top Akali Nihang Singhs are aware of the websites....who do you think has been asked to upgrade www.budhadal.com??? I hope that dear Amrit Pal Singh will not receive similar treatment when he brings out the translation of "Hazoori Maryada Prabodh" in the future which will inevitably rattle a few cages.. Anyway, continue as you please...

Thank you for that karmjeet, I am sure that there are many people who agree with your views. Unfortunately, I am not one of them.. Live and let live

It appears that like your contemporaries, you chose to ignore the evidence presented on the Sanatan Sikh websites. If as you suggest there is "no such thing" as Sanatan Sikhi, please present EVIDENCE to the contrary...perhaps Bhagat Kabir and Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji, and countless Nihang, Nirmala, Udhasi, and Seva Panthi texts and authors are also 'wrong' in your opnion (or in the opinion of your latest source of knowledge - Nihang Gurmant Singh). If you have an issue about caste, please read up on Sikh history. Perhaps you wish to ask Nihang Gurmant Singh what happened at DamDama Sahib the weeks following the events of Anandpur Sahib in 1999(?)...assuming he is aware of Sikh history. If you do not agree with what is presented on the Sanatan Sikh websites, then by all means take it up with Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh ji - who advocates the current practices of the Amrit Sanchar of the Budha Dal with regards to caste. I assume Gurmant Singh is aware of Baba Santa Singh's authority and has himself taken amrit from the Budha Dal (as you claim). Are you suggesting that Nihang Gurmant Singh does not agree with Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh and the Budha Dal? With regards to alcohol, could you give me the exact date/ocation where you claim Baba Santa Singh is said to have beaten up a Nihang for consuming alcohol. This comes as a surprise to me as Baba Santa Singh himself has no issues with the use of alcohol when he did katha of Ratan Singh Bhangu's Prachin Panth Prakash that speaks of Nihangs consuming alcohol (sura). He even speaks of this in the translation he has done of Ratan Singh Bhangu's works... Sikh princess..thank you for the quotes but we ave gotten accustomed to individuals quoting out of context to suit their own perception. A valiant attempt nonetheless. Incidentally, Bhagat Kabir mentions the concept of "Sanatan"...does this mean you agree with this too seeing how you are so quick to quote his anti-fish stance? Rest assured, videos and audio clips are coming soon. The only reason they have not come up on the website is due to time constraints. However, I expect given your attitude towards Sanatan Sikhs, you will dismiss these forms of evidence too and chose to target myself personally...a truly pathetic state of affairs. I hope that Nihang Gurmant Singh is aware that his video will be put on the internet. As such, could you also ask him for the following information (...perhaps he has already given it): a) When did he take amrit from the Budha Dal What was his role within the Budha Dal (so we can have this confirmed) c) Is he aware of www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org and of the evidence presented there d) Is the aim of the video to present hiw personal views, or those of the Budha Dal. If they are those of the Budha Dal, what authority does he have to do so. For example, Nihang Niddar Singh is officially recognised as Jathedar of the Budha Dal in the UK and was given permission by Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh himself. e) Is the video a ploy by anti-Sanatan Sikhs to try pitching Nihang against Nihang...and is Nihang Gurmant Singh aware that www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org are made by Nihangs of the Budha Dal. Also, seeing that Nihang Gurmant SIngh is in Canada I am sure he has a telephone number where he can be contacted. Please be kind enough to pass this onto me (via PM) so I can call him and speak to him directly. I am sure he has no problems speaking to fellow Nihangs of the Budha Dal...unless he has something to hide. As a final point, the Sanatan Sikh websites have been made with the BLESSING of Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh ji himself....so your claim that we are misrepresenting the Budha Dal and spreading misinformation is as true as your desire to appear intelligent... In addition, try not to get personal and emotional, it only serves to highlight your own stupidity... Have a lovely evening...

N30Singh, Udhasis, Seva panthis, Nirmalas and Nihangs ALL acknowledge Adi Guru Durbar, Dasam Guru Durbar and Sarbloh Guru Durbar. There are still associations within these sampardas. Regarding Udhasis, it is a well known fact that without them, there would BE no Khalsa. Their immense seva within the annals of Sikh history far outweighs the contribution of ANY modern Jatha, committee, etc. Their council has ALWAYS been sought (whenever possible) when Sarbat Khalsa is held, for Udhasis are known to be men of wisdom. Regarding Nihangs, the issue of caste is not a "serious problem" as N30Singh claims. It may be a "problem" for those who have been educated in modern mainstream Sikhism, or those attempting to divorce Sikhism from Punjabi Saviachaar. In addition, there are a WIDE variety of Nihangs that exist, and with them, a wide variety of rehits too. Newsflash...not all Nihangs are bibeki, and not all nihangs follow sarbloh rehit. This is a fairytale spread by people who lack information about Nihang Maryada and wish to propagate their own version of what Nihang Singh rehit entails. Unlike modern mainstream Sikhism that wants everyone to look, act, walk, talk, breath, eat and shit at the same time and in perfect synch, Sanatan Sikhi is diverse and allows for indidivuality and expression of character based upon one's own virtues. Alcohol, meat and cannabis are used by Nihangs, and are very much part of Nihang maryada - regardless of what modern Sikhs may think. This doesnt mean all Nihang Singhs are drug addicts, alchoholics and butchers. Inevitably, there are those who ABUSE the freedom given to them, but this is a minority. N30Singh, it may be wise for your own sake to stop jumping to conclusions and placing judgement on people based upon your principles without knowing the full facts. You may be a moderator on this discussion board, but it does not give you a license to spread bull$hit based on your own limited perception of historical facts and respective maryada of these sampardas. Lalleshvari.... "Sanatan Sikhi" is NOT "puratan". This would be considered this an blatent insult by many Sanatan Sikhs... By defining Sikhi as "puratan" implies that is it dependent on TIME. Sanatan by definition means that Sikhi is ETERNAL and represents the PUREST essence of Akal Purakh. If we are to use the term "Puratan" to define Sikhi, then we have immediately placed a LIMIT on what Sikhi represents. Puratan implies it is a creation dependent on TIME. As such, what is created in time, is destroyed by time. By using the term "puratan" you have LIMIT has been placed on the virtues of Akaal Purakh too. Indeed, your own Nirmala scholars have utilsied the term SANATAN in their numerous texts.... Puratan also has negative conotations as I am sure u are aware, and that term can be considered very derogatory too.

Great painting. Excuse my ignorance but what is the source of this painting, when was it done, and who was its creator? Thanks again..

Caveat emptor - Nothing on the Internet is 100% safe. There are backdoors to EVERYTHING. Its just a matter of having the correct key for the correct lock.

Please explain what you mean by "Namdhari-Nihangs"

shaka nyorai Could you clarify the distinction between "sanatan" and "puratan" according to yourself...thanks..

I look forward to the website jtsingh...

*watches a bee land on lalleshvari's nose*

..not to mention the sterotypical "graduation day - leaning on the fireplace" pose.

Before considering the concept of "bowing to a Sant", could you please let us know how can one tell who is a 'Sant' and who isnt?.

perhaps we can utilise examples from history to explain this further

Fresco of Ranjit Singh’s era destroyed Tribune India, Reporter: Pawan Kumar Amritsar, June 11 The old wall painting of Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s era depicting Maharaja Ranjit Singh holding a Darbar has been destroyed from the haveli in the congested walled city opposite to the Hindu College which was demolished reportedly to raise a shopping plaza. Mr Jasbir Singh Bhatia, a research scholar on Sikh portraits brought the broken pieces to The Tribune office, revealed that this was the rarest wall painting and seemed to be made during Maharaja’s era. He said the painting has shown Maharaja Ranjit Singh in white and black beard and also having a halo behind his head which is rare to be found. In most of paintings Maharaja is shown in white beard and halo. Mr Bhatia expressed his anguish over the attitude of Government which had failed to preserve such rarest treasure. He said government should have identified such heritage and preserve them with available latest techniques. He said the painting seemed to have been made before 1830-32 when Maharaja Ranjit Singh was alive. He said majority of paintings found were of after 1838 having the influence of British painters and made after his death. He revealed that in 1838, Emily Edan, a British painter had painted a picture in a pose which became very famous and adopted by many artists later on. However, this painting had not such influence as this had shown Maharaja Ranjit Singh holding a rose and a man waving a cloth ‘chanwar’, he added. Mr Bhatia said Maharaja has been shown as sitting on Golden Chair embedded with various precious stones along with Maharaja Kharak Singh, Maharaja Sher Singh, Maharaja Naunihal Singh, Sardar Lehna Singh etc. He said in the facial expression and cloth wearing style showed their status in the Darbar. He said the painting seemed to be the result of Rajput artisan having Rajasthan technique. The base of painting have been prepared with successive layers of limestone, brick powder, white clay mixed with coat of bone and shell powder, curd, milk and honey. This technique is known as ‘Pore’ technique of Rajasthani art in vogue before the beginning of 20th century. Ms Mejinderpal Kaur, Director, United Sikhs Organisation, a human development organisation said that their organisation would do their best to play any role which they were asked to play to preserve such structures and paintings. She said it would be short-sightedness of us if we failed to appreciate and preserve them. She expressed dismay over the government’s attitude towards preserving our heritage. source: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040612/punjab1.htm#8

Sikh princess, unlike mainstream Sikhs, Sanatan Sikhs allow the right for people to have opinions of their own. Its a fact that not everyone will agree on every issue....its termed "reality". If lalleshvari does not wish to use the term "Sanatan Sikhi", that is his right, and his opinion is respected. Live and let live. Sanatan Sikhs do not believe in creating Sikhs that look, act, and behave in identical manner. We prefer variety...and colourful personalities that have the ability to express themselves. Its a known fact that Raam, Krishan Maharaj, etc all hunted and ate meat. The vegetarian tinge arose much later. Consult any Archarya who has had old-school training and they will confirm this. Even within Dasam Guru Durbar, Krishan Maharaj's exploits are told in great detail...it may be a suggestion to read them. In one situation, Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji describes how Krishan Maharaj even mocks those who do not drink alcohol and partake in the company of fine women. Was the Guru incorrect? (btw, this is mentioned in Krishan Avtar, which is present even the SGPC-sanctioned versions of Dasam Guru Durbar)

I'd like to know too...

Why is it is deemed politically correct not to question the actions of groups and individuals responsible for such crimes who ironically claim to be doing 'good' for Sikhism (ie. 'Panthic')?

We have entered the Twilight Zone.... Sikhs all over the world blame the Indian Government for destroying and stealing manuscripts and artifacts during the events during and after Operation BlueStar. There are groups lobbying to rectify this crime, and it is something that should be pursued. ...however, we have 'Panthic' SIKHS committing equally attrocious crimes today - book burning, white washing, stealing rare manuscripts, defacing walls and frescos, diluting gold, erasing history, etc., and it is deemed "acceptable" simply because these actions are committed by Sikhs Lalleshvari, I was stunned by the lavish use of green bathroom tiles that seem to replace frescos and paintings on puratan Gurughaars. It may be worth your while investing in shares in the tile manufacturing company that has a contract with the S.G.P.C.

Yes, but lalleshvari, according to today's Sikhs, the S.G.P.C. and groups supporting their actions (A.K.J., Nishkam Sevak Jatha, 'DamDami Taksal', various Sant factions, etc) are seen as saviours of Sikhism. In this day and age, anyone who questions the actions of such groups is branded as 'Anti-Panthic'. If this remains the case, then it appears we are to expect worse things to happen. Perhaps some day children will be taught that Shaheed Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh wore a Patiala shahi turban and a beard net and defeated his enemies with a symbolic wooden kirpan which he wore around his neck... These actions of today's saviours of Sikhism seem to parallel the book burning frenzies of the Nazis and Facists in the early 20th century.

There goes Shaheed Akali Nihang Baba Udey Singh and Shaheed Akali Nihang Baba Bachittar Singh.. A close up of frescos can be seen at (pre-whitewash): http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/informa...ledgements.html

Perhaps some clarification is required on certain facts...(they can be clarified by reading news articles of the time, or consulting Gurmeet Rai and other distinguished experts in this field: a) the Indian army shelled the Akal Takht due to Bhindrawalla and his men fortifying it and living in it. As such, large portions were destroyed - but the building still stood and was able to be restored Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh then RESTORED the Akal Takht using the ORIGINAL portions as a basis - this task was completed and the structure was fully RESTORED c) the SGPC and other so-called 'Panthic groups' then proceeded to DESTROY the Akal Takht once it had been FULLY RESTORED by the Nihangs d) the REBUILDING meant TOTAL destruction of the Akal Takht as it had stood since the times of the Gurus!!!! ALL the original gold, frescos, paintings, carvings, etc were LOST forever!!! A structure that had been placed by Akali Guru Hargobind Sahib, Baba Budha ji and the Akal Sena had been lost forever!!! Therefore, the facts suggest that the SGPC/AKJ/SGPC and other self-proclaimed 'Panthic' groups acheived what the Indian Army could not.... ...they demolished the ENTIRE Akal Takht (even those portions that remained after the shelling) in the name of the 'Panth' As yet, NO ONE knows where the original portions of the Akal Takht are...ie, the termendous amount of Gold. According to experts, the gold currently on the Akal Takht is 'new' and contains a high copper content. This had meant that the gold is now turning black!!! Check it out for yourselves the next time you're at Durbar Sahib!! The same can be said for Durbar Sahib itself, where the OLD gold panels have vanished, and have been replaced with 'new' gold, that is now turning a mild tint of BROWN!! ..I believe it is the Niskham Sevak Jatha who have been given 'Seva' of Durbar Sahib 'restoration'. Impressive...is it not?

Sukhbir, alas it seems you have a lot to learn about humour in addition to Sikh history and traditions. Perhaps its the result of listening to Malkeet Singh's lyrics once too often..