Gupt Singh

by the rehit of guru gobind singh ji a sikh MUST wash his hair daily, bathe in the morning and do panj ishnaan (bath) before bed. sikhs are also forbidden from tobacco, meat, etc. this isnt an attack on islam or anything, but i believe muslims take so called clenliness into ritualism. what is the significance of washing oneself 7 times (i think) in wudu? and why do u have to wash 7 times one of which with soil after touching a wet dog (no jokes)? it is also unneccesary, in my opinion, to remove all pubic hair, including that around the bottom and armpits. its just an excuse not to wash so often in my opinion. sorry if i offended anyone, thats just my opinion. i have a wiked dhari and i never get food in it. unless u eat like an animal, food doesnt usually get in your dhari. for the less well mannered singhs i will give u a step by step guide of eating without messing your dhari: 1. use fork/roti/hand to take food. dont make it too big. 2. open mouth, preferably wide. 3. place food in mouth. 4. close mouth 5. chew. please remember not to get 2 and 3 mixed up, or you might make a mess....lol

both are probably inauthentic then. i wouldnt base my beliefs in something on 2 rehitnamas. alot of rehitnamas even say specific amounts of water to have your bath with. most rehitnamas are the individiuals interpritation of hte khalsa. why dont please like bhai daya singh, original panj pyare, talk about it? why isnt it mentioned in varan? look just read the section on jhatka in www.tapoban.org gurmat section. it will clear any doubts you have. in the message board section there is testimony that people who previously ate it STOPPED after readin that stuff1

those seperate booths are for akhand paaths. the gyanis inside are doing continious recitation of the guru granth sahib for a particular event. it looks a bit dodgy yes, but they have to have little soundproof compartments so the main programme does not interfere with their reading. i think its a bit excessive to have 10, but its a good idea.

i love reading htis kind of propaganda. they say guru nanak was a muslim and he was killed by the sikhs when they realised this.....lol! "|| 7 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he submits to God's Will (Islam) and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. || 2 || FIRST MEHL: There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names. Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord. Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim. O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood." this is a common poetic technique used in guru granth sahib, they will take something and analyse each part of it and compare it to truth. like for example they will say something when describing idol worship like "let truth be your offering, meditation your idol, and sexual restraint your service" or something like that.......its done alot.....guruji is describing the true way of islam or "submission"> notice that it is said "when he is merciful to all beings". since hte gurus were very anti halal, im sure theres a semi halal reference there. "|| 6 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran. Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim. Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant. Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will." again thats a good example of it. gurus were very much against circumcision etc, they were just saying the true way to religion. lol there was a semi attempt at a stab at sikhisms credibility at hte bottom which was rather quickly refuted. o well.

but surely if all kes evidence is not credible and keski evidence is, and since so few women wear keskis anyway, wouldnt it be better to change it back to keski in the rehit? i also heard sarbloh granth mentions keski

and just 1 more comment...........nihungs can think what htey like......but at least if ur gonna do nindyaa do it on an alive person.....ive got respect for niddar singh as a martial artist......but against bhai fauja singh or bhai randhir singh would batter him if they were alive not with some special chatka gatka but pure riddhean siddhean and naam imbued powers. but that wouldnt ever happen, because hte two of them are the more gentle and peaceful people ive seen. and ALSO, btw, ive trained with uptej singh who so much hate is thrown against on that site. yes his martial art isnt the real one, but hes a really nice guy. no, really. he got all the kids interested in sikhi and he was propa safe, never shouted or anything, i stopped doing his lessons cuz they were too basic but his personality could beat any egoed nihung anyday.

and btw does anyone know where ican learn shastar vidiya in uk esp london?

where are references to jhatka in dasam granth or anywhere else? ive seen it under the context of "jhatka warriors" but never for meat itself. and supposedly there is a part of dasam granth which says guru gobind singh drank sukkha. the person who told me said it was in a place called "kavi". i know of no such piece in dasam granth. maybe the nihung here could enlighten me on this.

yeh singh i see where ur coming from you have a point with the kachera thing but there is plenty of evidence for keski as a kakkar. it IS a big issue - imagine if i changed "kirpan" to "katar"......thats a big thing changing what guru ji said in bhai rama singhs darshan from guru gobind singh he ordered him to only give amrit to those who accepted keski as a kakkar as it was the true kakkar.

previously i used to think that the kakkar was kesh. after all, everyone believed the same way. but when i did a deeper study into it i found that i was mistaken. for the benefit of the sangat i sugeest you go to www.akj.org and www.tapoban.org as well as www.panthkhalsa.org they have good literature there on the subject. i will summarise most of it here. firstly lets look at the sources we have to see if KES is a kakkar: 1. rehitnamas - i havent seen any specifically saying kes. although if u have tell me, its likely they were changed. 2. dasam granth - pro kes people (that doesnt mean that kes should be removed if keski is the kakkar, it actually makes kes more important) use the dasam granth to say kes is the kakkar. go to www.damdamitaksal.com and under the literature rehat section they use this quote. however this is not part of the dasam granth itself written by guru gobind singh. it is used as an "appendix" and has been dated to be written much later. even sgpc admit that this is not gurujis writing. 3. the hukamnama to kabul - this is also known to be a fake. there are many, many fake hukamnamas around and this is proven to be one of htem. if you go to www.tapoban.org and go to the message board, under the topic " dastar" i think they discuss it. there might be a few others i have forgotten - please enlighten me. but my main point is we actually have very little information on what the kakkars were! now if we look at the evidence for KESKI 1. rehitnama bhai chaupa singh - yes bhai chaupa singh isnt the most reliable source but he still says "kara, kirpan, keski, kachera, kangha, these are the five articles of the faith for a sikh". 2. rehitnama bhai daya singh and bhai nand lal etc. also bhai prahlad singh? - they dont explictly say that keski is a kakkar (but then none say the same of kes from my knowledge) but they say TIE YOUR TURBAN EVERY MORNING, also THOSE WHO CONSUME FOOD BAREHEADED ARE DESTINED FOR HELL and also condems those who ROAM AROUND BARE HEADED. not only this but bhai daya singh, the 1st of the panj pyare, goes as far as saying WOMEN SHOULD NOT HAVE THEIR HAIR LOSE, THEY SHOULD TIE IT AS A TOPKNOT ON THEIR HEAD. this means women must tie a jurra also. obviously, you have to keep your hair covered. also: "Each candidate for Baptism be made to wear kachhehra, tie hair in a topknot and cover the same with dastaar; wear Sri Sahib (i.e. Kirpan) in Gaatra (shoulder belt). Then he/she should stand with folded hands." (Rahitnama Bhai Daya Singh Ji) 3. also importnat is this: "...Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa should keep his hair unshorn, have flowing beard and have simple dastaar which saves him from impiety. Then the Sikhs asked what would happen to those Amrltdharis who start cutting their hair or do not keep their hair covered. The Guru replied that they would be stupid and will lose their sensibility It is a blemish to remain bareheaded...Always keep two turbans. When the bigger turban is removed, the smaller be kept. The smaller turban should not be removed." (Bijai Mukat Dharam Shastra - Sakhi-8) there is no mention of man or woman difference. also the keski underneath is not to be removed. 4. jd cunningham states in his book history of hte sikhs 1848 "The Sikh women are distinguished from Hindus of their sex by some variety of dress, chiefly by a higher topknot of hair."22 Higher topknot of hair on Sikh women's heads automatically implies their coverage by some sort of turban, as Cunningham has connected it with "some variety of dress." 5. so why did this happen then? how did keski phase out? well we know already that all the fashionable sikh gals would much rather have their hair out then in a keski. its well known. its well known that a certain jathedar (gurmukh singh mustafir) allowed women to take amrit w/out keski. there was a huuuuge rush of women who all came. so therefore it was kept this way. "S. Shamsher Singh Ashok who has been an active member of the Singh Sabha movement and an erstwhile Research Scholar of the S.G.P.C., while discussing the prevalence of the use of 'keski', states: "...and, consequently in the Amrit-Parchaar at the Akal Takht Sahib, this was a precondition even for ladies before they could be baptized there. Any woman who was not prepared to wear Keski was not baptized. This practice continued even after the end of the Gurdwara movement. Relaxation was made only when Giani Gurmukh Singh Musafir became the Jathedar of the Akal Takht."23" 6. the most reliable evidence we have is from a group of poets who chronicled history. they wrote as follows. "A recent discovery from old literature puts a final seal on the Keski having been prescribed as a Rahit by the Tenth Guru himself. While going through the old Vahis of the Bhatts, lying with their successors in Karnal District in Haryana State, Prof. Piara Singh Padam of Punjabi University Patiala came across a paragraph explaining the first baptism of the double-edged sword bestowed by Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji on the First Five Beloved Ones on the Baisakhi of 1699 A.D. and the Code of Conduct imparted to them on that auspicious occasion. Based upon the language and style, this manuscript has been assessed to have been written in about the end of the eighteenth century. As this finding is of special significance in this respect, the English translation of the whole paragraph is reproduced below: "Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Tenth Guru, son of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji, in the year Seventeen Hundred Fifty Two, on Tuesday - the Vaisakhi day - gave Khande-Ki-Pahul to Five Sikhs and surnamed them as Singhs. First Daya Ram Sopti, Khatri resident of Lahore stood up. Then Mohkam Chand Calico Printer of Dawarka; Sahib Chand Barber of Zafrabad city; Dharam Chand Jawanda Jat of Hastnapur; Himmat Chand Water Carrier of Jagannath stood up one after the other. All were dressed in blue and he himself also dressed the same way. Huqqah, Halaal, Hajaamat, Haraam, Tikka, Janeyu, Dhoti, were prohibited. Socialization with the descendants of Prithi chand (Meenay), followers of Dhirmal and Ram Rai, clean shaven people and Masands was prohibited. All were given Kangha, Karad, KESGI, Kada and Kachhehra. All were made Keshadhari. Everyone's place of birth was told to be Patna, of residence as Anandpur. Rest, Guru's deeds are known only to the Satguru. Say Guru! Guru! Guru! Guru will help everywhere." this also shows that both halal and haram were forbidden (no meat allowed) finally, its just common sense. the panj kakkars are symbols. they can be taken off the body. kes cannot. if i remove my kara its not too bad. if i remove my kes then i am a patit. kes is so special it requires both keski and kangha to keep it in good condition. theres plenty more argument on those sites. please tell me what ya think.

calm yourself. u havent touched any of hte other quotes. please examine the others and they have not been taken out of context. one of htem was: p182 It torments us through the intoxication of wine and the beauty of youth. || 2 || It torments landlords, paupers and lovers of pleasure. It torments us through the sweet sounds of music and parties. It torments us through beautiful beds, palaces and decorations. It torments us through the darkness of the five evil passions. || 3 || It torments those who act, entangled in ego. It torments us through household affairs, and it torments us in renunciation. It torments us through character, lifestyle and social status. It torments us through everything, except for those who are imbued with the Love of the Lord. there is no way that this could be referring to anything else. maya is being referred to. maya takes the form of WINE, BEAUTY, (and can affect anyone), MUSIC, PARTIES, RICHES, LUXURY, etc. these things are all in the same catagory. there is no other interpritation of the shabad. music and parties has been grouped with other sinful things. there was a really good set of quotes on the sikhpride.com forum a while ago - look them up.

yes sikhs should not wear green or red. i think there might be 2 reasons......1stly it incites passion....and isnt green and red the muslim and hindoo colours (i mite b wrong?) yes guru gobind singh also wore green once. but then he had to take his keski off so he wasnt stabbed! and he did clearly say that you shouldnt roam bareheaded.....but if ur lifes in danger u can make a exception. bhindranwale wore a saffron turban and clothes one would wear to a wedding because he offered himself to the police for arrest and said he was going to wed his wife, death. dont get too sure that taksal rehit is perfect....theres alot of evidence that has been uncovered now that keski could have been the kakkar and alot of so called kesh evidence is found 2 b fake...if u want me to give some ill start a new thread.

guv quote the entire shabad of what you have a problem with. if you think music makes no difference to spirituality then stop listening for 3 months and replace with kirtan. instead of arguing o nthe internet try it hands on with your own mind and body. i ask people to give examples of great gursikhs in the past who danced/listened to music. like i said before....i really cant imagine guru gobind singh c-walking to a xzibit or 2pac song.......can u? what about jumping about shouting chakdee fateeeeh to bhangra? nah.

where can i get hold of the autobiography in uk?

i think my dhari n phug make me look better. i would look stoopid without them. sikhs and muslims batter each other alot. what they forget is in pakistan the ISI are training up all the sikhs!!!!!

oh and guv........before you claim im "disgusting" and evil lol.......could u explain to me why they dont do bhangra in the gurdwara...once they did and there was biiiiiiig trouble.........anything forbidden in gurdwara is forbidden elsewhere. its very easy to twist gurbani for whatever. there is the ying and yang extreme. the yang is to take every line literally and you end up with a rather constrained life. the ying is to take everything metaphorically and u can end up doing whatever. take a middle ground.

guv none of those quotes were twisted. the prostitute one is still just as appropriate the one u gave sounded messed up...because u forgot to add the rahaoo (pause) and the II 1 II thingy after the first sentence. i havent done that on mine. if you think the quotes are wrong read the whole shabad. it still stands. moreso, try doing what i did. it took me months to ween myself off gangstah rap hiphop and ragga. i had to bin all my cds and music and replace it all with kirtan and listen every day. now i dont have an iota of interest in anything other than gurbani. if people are so sure that they are right, go without music for 3 months and replace it with kirtan.....and see how u feel at the end.....K?

ive read bhai rama singhs book its heavy i read parasaraprasna by kapur singh thats good and warriors saints is good too dasam granth and guru granth are the obvious ones where CAN I GET HOLD OF BHAI RANDHIR SINGHS AUTOBIOGRAPHY IN UK!!!! PLEEEEEEEZ TELL ME!! I WENT TO AN AKJ RANSAVAE AND THEY DIDNT HAVE ANYTHING....WHERE WHERE WHERE LOL

wot is everyone chatting about here.......if someone makes fun of your phug be racist back......if they call you paki call them cracker or nigger.....if they are muslim and they make fun of guru nanak or whatever make fun of prophet mohammed and his 9yr old wife....if they push you then punch em back, if they punch you then hospitalise them.....its quite simple really...ive never been bullied but some of my friends have and thats what they do and it sorts it out.......show yah strong.....dont be a p***y and run to the teacher or whatnot.

these are a few i could find: p142 Intoxicated with power and thrilled with wealth, they delight in their pleasures, and dance about shamelessly. O Nanak, they are deluded and defrauded. Without the Lord's Name, they lose their honor and depart. p1165 He is like the prostitute, who comes to dance, wearing beautiful clothes, decorated and adorned. She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her. But the noose of the Messenger of Death is around her neck. that one is very appropriate for all the cut haired girls out there p1285 Some dance and dance and keep the beat, but they do not worship Him with devotion. Some refuse to eat; what can be done with these fools? a VERY GOOD one p182 It torments us through the intoxication of wine and the beauty of youth. || 2 || It torments landlords, paupers and lovers of pleasure. It torments us through the sweet sounds of music and parties. It torments us through beautiful beds, palaces and decorations. It torments us through the darkness of the five evil passions. || 3 || It torments those who act, entangled in ego. It torments us through household affairs, and it torments us in renunciation. It torments us through character, lifestyle and social status. It torments us through everything, except for those who are imbued with the Love of the Lord. p738 He listens to the sounds of sin and the music of corruption, and he is pleased. His mind is too lazy to listen to the Praises of the Lord. dont listen to bhangra - listen to KEERTAN. p1342 In music and song, the mind is caught by the love of duality. Filled with deception deep within, one suffers in terrible pain. these are only a few. there was a fat collection of hte good ones which blatantly proved bhangra was against sikhi on sikhpride.com but hte sites down. ill admit i used to listen to bare rap n hiphop, but now i stopped and instead of rap lyrics ringing in my head its just kirtan. and trust me theres a bigger difference then u think in not listening or listening to music - why not see for urself. its punjabi culture that is dragging sikhi down. stuff like sexism, casteism, bhangra, meat, drink - all the punjabi stuff - that is messin up sikhi. if it wasnt for those things its quite likely sikhi would be one of hte bigger religions in the world.

yeh im on akj..........btw its not a pick and mix on dassam granth grewal, bhai randhir singh accepted all of it, the reason guruji didnt add him bani (maybe on reason) was because it was complex and harder to understand, it may have confused alot of singhs, and if u take it literally it wont make sense.

"1. Why we here in this world????????? " take amrit and please god "2. what happens when you are in your mother's womb??? what do u do then? " nothing. the soul enters after a period. you start to be influenced by things u hear/feel whilst in the womb. "3. why you think you deserve to live as human... what you do for the world ??? " i deserve to live as a human because of my past karma of previous lives......i have so far done nothing for hte world but intend to do more. "4. what happens when you see poor child on tv??? what do u feel?? can you picture urself in that suitation??? thank vaheguroo for not being in that suitation then why we as humans always brag brag brag ?????????" yeh.....1st feel sorry for the kid.......then remember that waheguru created the poison and the nectar.....and then remember the consequences of the poison. "5. do u beleive in hell and heaven in this earth??? why so???" there is hell in between cycles of reincarnation. hell is also being a manmukh as we all are. there is heaven on earth when one is in a state of naam raas. permanent ecstacy beyond words can be obtained by following the gurus will and entering saachkhand. "6. do u beleive rebirths as animals after death?? do u believe in 8.4 million cycles of birth and death??? what do u do to prevent it????" do what the gurus tell you to. take amrit, do seva for saadh sangat and satguru, do naamjaap, paath, martial arts, meditate and lead a righteous lifestyle. "7. why we have ego????? why we always top of each other provin each other wrong??" we have ego because we are stupid. "8. why we are soo attached with fellow human being and forget about getting attached with vaheguroo???" because humans by nature take the easy route for everything. low level short term pleasure is obtained thru maya. infinite level, infinite level pleasure is gained through waheguru. "9. what happens when you have a bad dream ??? do u think life is a dream ??????? " a bad dream is life and life is a bad dream until one is in a chardee kallaa state. life is a dream, and only once the maya filled body turns to dust, and one is sent either to jaam via jaamdoots or saachkhand via dharaam raj, will the true ecstacy of the soul be felt (in the case of the latter) or pure torture of the soul (former) "10. what would u choose?? Piece of mind or Materliastic things like (gals, drinks, car, bunglow, paradise, popularity, gun).. which is more valuable after all????" piece of mind.....and a gun to shoot kps gill hahaha "11. Define vaheguroo?? Define 9 doors??? Define the tenth door??" waheguru is undefinable. as guru nanak says, attempt to write a book describing him or his creation and you will finish yourself before u finish the book. "He blew the breath of life into the musical instrument of the body, and revealed the nine doors; but He kept the Tenth Door hidden. " the dasam duar is the gate to god.

sikhism in panjab has been messed up big time when i say this im not BSing, there are 2 problems in punjab, 1st is police, harrassing torturing killing sikhs, they need to be killed first, trust me i know youth who are planning this as we speak and they arent messing about. second problem is the hindian govt is totatlly against sikhi. they are paying off the SGPC to just mess about. wondered why so many biharis are being flooded into panjab? take a guess. before u know it hindi will be the state national language. the only way out is to get independant rule in panjab, LOTS of parchar which i will be doing in india, and getting rid of the police etc also sikhs need real role models, they used to have bhindranwale etc, now all they have is harbhajan singh and all the stoopid bhangra people (which is against sikhi BTW)

there is nothing fanatical here. people called sant jarnail singh bhindrenwale a fanatic because he preached sikhi. ""women should be seen as mothers sisters or daughters. and fathers brothers and sons for women." That worked back in the old days when you was just given someone to marry but now the way arranged marriges are now I believe it does not apply now." no offence but htat is complete rubbish. i would use harsher words but kiddies probably read this. EVERYTHING guruji has said applies ONE HUNDRED and ONE PERCENT today. you cant pick and choose what you believe. it seems that you dont have complete faith in the guru. there was a maaaasive discussion on this on AKJ website i dunno if its still there, but the conclusion was BOYFRIENDS AND GIRLFRIENDS are WRONG. gurbani says treat everyone who is not your wife like a sister or mother. if you choose to disobey this it is your decision. i hear the most disgusting things today, like "gursikhs" going to ski resorts etc with their "girlfriends" using the excuses of smagams, rensavaes, etc. can you imagine guru gobind singh taking his "girlfriend" out? no i dont think you can. in that case you shouldnt do it either. the problem with sikhs these days is they are too lazy. their 5 sins lead them astray and they say "no! its not lust its LOVE" LOOL! i think western society has gone to your heads a bit. ive been thru the whole bf/gf thing, im not living in a cave, and i can say that from experience those kind of things are: 1. against sikhi as the above quote shows. 2. completely unconducive to spirituality - they hinder you. 3. try to fill a gap that sikhi should fill - just like people use alcohol etc 4. something that a gurmukh would not do or have need for. so neither should you. common guys, have a bit of restraint and stop kidding yaselves. if your 18 and your looking for a wife then fine, even tho that isnt the best way (maybe mix arranged and "dating" together?) otherwise stop staring at girls and DO MORE PAATH!!!!!!

it is not mentioned in guru granth because guru granth is a manual for salvation for all mankind, not just for khalsa singhs. dasam granth is validated by many scholars, the best one being bhai randhir singhs work. if you feel you have any substantial argument baba virsa singh will pay for your transport, accomodation and food to his gobind sadan institute so you can debate with him. there are no contradictions in the guru granth regarding meat. it is easy to twist the meaning of gurbani for ANYTHING. i can prove to you that sikhs are christians, or hindus, or even muslims, with the guru granth, as can i prove that wine is ok and as is living gurus, by taking lines out of context. if there are any pro meat lines you find, please post them and i will try and explain them to you. guru granth sahib is free from contradiction because all its work was compiled by the gurus themselves and validated before finished.