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What is "Sach" ? What does it mean in Gurbani ?


karmjeet
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What does "Sach" mean ?

What does Guru Nanak Dev ji mean by Kiv Sachyara Hoyiye ?

Can "Sach" also refer to Ishvar, ParBrahm, Paramatma, Waheguru... ?

And also Guru Ji says Kaho Nanak "Sach" Dhyayiye ? What does Sach refer to here.

Everyone who views this topic please contribute even if its 2 words, I really need to understand this concept

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Karmjeet asked:

"What is Truth ?"

This is a great question and one I personally would love the forum to discuss at length. Khushwant Singh in his critique of "the system of Nanak" posits this question as a potential problem whilst stating that "the system of Nanak" does overcome many of the problems of other belief systems and philosophies.

Gurbani makes many references to the "truth", indeed we all worship the "truth" (Sat Sri Akal), so it is very easy to give a simple truth = God style answer, but I personally feel that this is a fundamental discussion that we should have to explore Gurmat in full.

Please could the learned members of our forum kindly provide their thoughts.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

What is Sach?

I reside in this and that address: Is that absolute sach/truth? No, because I might change my address after 1 year.

I am a human: Is that absolute sach/truth? No, because after my death this will not hold true.

Then what is Sach/Truth: It is something which is never destroyed, which always remain Sach, never changes. There is ONLY ONE Sach: Waheguru/Raab. Only Raab is sach everyone else is Kur/Jhoot. This earth, universe, 33 crore devte etc. is nothing more than illusion which GOD created with the combination of Maya. So, Sach is Waheguru himself.

das

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sorry for off topic,

are you two in love with each other? wherever tsingh there is drawrof, wherever drawrof there is tsingh. tut tut..lol

jk yo relax yo, cant think right anemore, i think hoddy i m wearing is getting to me..lol but i cannot take it off yo, love this gangasta sikhi style yo..sizzle my nizzle.

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"Interesting,

would that mean that the unadulterated atma was true before our creation, at our creation, during our existence, and after our existence?"

As the Atma is the Jyot - the internalised God, beyond time, measure and form, then as God it is aad sach, jugaad sach, hai bhi sach, hosi bhi sach.

Personally, the meaning of sach for me is simple - Guru Nanak Dev Ji's words.

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tsingh,

Thanks for your contribution. I personally feel, further to several posts on this forum by various posters, that the need to spell out the differences between "Atma" and "mind" is important and would be grateful if you could do this here to avoid any further issues arises in other discussions given that this is such a crucial piece of information (and sadly overlooked) when it comes down to anything related to "Gurmat" or "Vedant".

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Indeed, well the way it works is that Atma itself is unchanging, it is ever 'sach' (existing/truth), it is not afflicted by anything and it is not changing (that which changes being termed 'anatama' or not atma). Hence it is no different from parmatma (the drop in the ocean and all that). Gurbani has lots of quotes on this like 'jini atam cheeni parmatma soeii' in raag asa by Sri Guru Nanak Dev, i.e. the one who recognises atma is parmatma, and the line from sukhmani sahib of brahmgyani is srisht karta (cause of creation).

Mind on the other hand (the product of prarbadh karma) is that which that keeps us individuated (jeev atma). Hence samprdaya types adopt vedantic terminology of 'manonasha' as being one of the processes leading to brahmgyan...in otherwords, brahmgyan is not 'understanding something' but using the mind to deconstruct itself to reveal its source, self-illuminating consciousness. So the man, budhi, chit and ahankar (referred to in japuji sahib, with two in colloquial terms) constitute the subdivisions of the broader term 'man'. Unlike the views of other darshanas Gurmat accepts the vedantic line that the mind has an instrumentel role rather than agentic...and it basically gets very complicated from there onwards!

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"would that mean that the unadulterated atma was true before our creation, at our creation, during our existence, and after our existence?"

Atma is a part of GOD which is being seperated from GOD. Before creation it was GOD and after creation vanishes it will be GOD.

At the time of creation, it (Atma) was seperated from GOD. Therefore, again Sach is Waheguru Himself which is present before creation, during creation, and after creation. In other words when there was nothing (no universes, no devte, no Brahma, no Shivji, no Vishnu), then GOD existed and same applies when there will be NO creation.

das

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What you're implying there das is that there is an actual seperation with creation (parinamvad) meaning actual duality (God over here, atma over there floating around ....in what???), while the nirmalay at least (inc. Sant Ishar Singh Rara Sahib) accepted vivaratvad that there is only an apparent seperation (maya), only an apparent independence, and hence by simpy removing the mind, one is atma no different from parmatma.

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tsingh you are right. Atma is NOT seperated from GOD.

It didn't mean to say that during creation atma is actually separated from GOD. Actually, I intended to say that during creation: Atma seems (illusion) to be seperated from GOD. It holds ONLY till one does not reach Brahmgyan. Once anyone reaches Brahmgyan, Atma and GOD are one.

But before creation and after destruction of creation, there is NO maya, therefore that illusion is not there.

das

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