In This Time Sikhism Need Khalistan Or Not?

[khalsa_tiger]

why sikh wnt khalistan?why they need?i want hear u

[Kam1825]

My friend judging by the different understanding people have of bani, granths, vaars, vidya, sants and how we cannot agree here. In a seperate Sikh state we will end up dividing it in moments and their is no one spiritually and politically with the mindset to invoke a theocratic state of khalistan.

Im afraid at this moment in time that state will implode

God will hand the Sikhs thier state when his will is followed with love and devotion

[shaheediyan]

I agree with Kam.

ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜੇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਫੇਰਾ ॥੩॥

This is the only place we should be concerned about at present.

[JustME]

The idea of Khalistan is more appealing the the actual reality, which will be no different to the average local gurdwara committee

[HSD1]

because it will be a state where sikhs (and those of other religions) can grow up and live in peace without having their religion crapped on or twisted. to those who go on about gurudwara commitees, all i can say is that most gurudwaras have at least one idiot running them. those of us sikhs with half a brain could run it pretty well, ragardless of how fundamentalist (or retarded) the rest of the panth is. a lot better than badal. so dont cry about something that doesnt exist.

[ishvar2]

HSD, please don't make the mistake that someone having an opinion against such a state is crying - rather they are having the foresight to see that we do not currently have the capability to create nor maintain our own state.

About actually governing a country, I am sure you'll agree that running a country is far more challenging than running a Gurudwara!

I agree with the above posters that as Sikhs our concern should be devotion to the Ultimate.

[Guest]

I believe in khalsa raj over khalistan. However, I will not deny khalsa raj can come in form of khalistan. In that case, i ll support their cause. But now the hardcore khalistani have to be realistic and smell the coffee, at this moment they would have to prove how they going to run khalistan to gain public support because right now sadly our bandaie cannot even run gurdwara properly let alone whole state..what a laughing stock we have became.

There are many islands on sale around the world, i would advise people with strong khalistani beliefs to purchase island or two i ll contribute too in whichever way i can if they are serious about it, they should purchase a island, try living as a community for couple of years see if they can manage living in small island peacefully survive economically..at least that way they would have something to be proud of and they will end up getting more support from public.

[shaheediyan]

Now that would be a reality TV show even i would watch!

[HSD1]

hahah lol. if someone sounds like they are crying then i'll say it. as for khalistan, let me ask you this: if gurudwara committees are so badly run (which some are) why are you complaining and not doing anything? even if khalistan was free, we wouldnt get anywhere if the panth sat on the sidelines waiting to see if it was worth supporting, before piling in if it is successful and saying they were responsible for the victory. lol, i can actually imagine quite a lot of sikhs jumping up and down afterwards saying they were the ones who did all the hard work. stuck in between the fundamentalists and the supposed intellectuals in the panth, i cant help but laugh.

[ishvar2]

HSD,

1. Please continue to state if some sounds like they are crying but the truth is you don't know for sure. You may be surprised that your assumption is wrong.

2. 'if gurudwara committees are so badly run (which some are) why are you complaining and not doing anything?'

I respect anyone trying to do something positive for people, communities or anything. And yes, I admit I can do a lot more, I have no illusions about that. (But you'll notice from my above post I personally haven't criticised people running Gurudwaras - I just made a statement that running a country is harder.)

However, my concern is that in the rush to go and do something we do not do it as well and as long term as we could have and we do not have the foresight, knowledge and virtues to do them in the way that they should be done. Therefore, you can accuse some people of doing nothing, but perhaps that is because they know they need to develop themselves first and maybe one day with Guru Kirpa they'll help the panth and when they do it'll be

a) long term - the effects will not be a quick fix

b ) with correct understanding (instead of full of holes like myself)

c) self generating as they'll teach others and not hold the blessings that they have had to themselves

d) without the negative effects that comes with people thinking they are achieving something themselves (hankaar)

e) with blessing of all Sampradayas and the Panth at large - or under the tutelage of those with pure jivaans like Mahapurakhs

f) with the gunn that Guru Ji's teaches comes from God Himself

This is not an argument against doing anything till you are perfect or anything rather it is an argument for doing things with a bit more awareness than we are usually accustomed to. A great example of someone doing seva like this is Bhagat Puran Singh Ji - he did not do just seva of people, he looked at everything with an awareness of environment, fund raising, person health, and wrote extensively. And most importantly he knew his compassion was God given and he felt blessed just being given the opportunity to serve people - for him serving people was serving God.

I am blessed that know of people who are already seva (or different forms) in line with what I have outlined above and they have many blessing from Guru Ji to do this.

I hope maybe, Guru Kirpa, you can be one of these people too.

Last two points:

2) 'even if khalistan was free, we wouldnt get anywhere if the panth sat on the sidelines waiting to see if it was worth supporting, before piling in if it is successful and saying they were responsible for the victory.'

Yes, we will not get anything if the Panth are waiting to see if it's going to be successful - but can you see that's why people need to develop themselves and our jeevans - professionally, socially and spiritually. When and if the time comes (i.e. if God wills it) it'll happen.

There is no victory for Sikhs - it's always Vaheguru Ji Ki Fat-heh.

3) 'lol, i can actually imagine quite a lot of sikhs jumping up and down afterwards saying they were the ones who did all the hard work.'

I doubt if this situation did occur that real Sikhs would claiming they did all the hard work:

Gura ik deh bujha-ee. Sabhna jee-a ka ik daata,. So mai visar na ja-ee

Finally, may I ask what you do or what you have done to further this cause?

[HSD1]

1. crying involves wailing out loud, which is the impression i get from some of these posts.

2. exactly, but when people mention setting up desert islands, i'm just like . no other community tests runs themselves on islands. but if khalistan is run by fundamentalists or egotistical 'intellectuals' then we will collapse.

2.1 maybe i didnt make myself clear, but i'm not saying we should run a country like a gurudwara or that sikhs are anywhere close to being able to run a country. but we can educate the panth rather than laughing at those who are swimming against the stream.

3. of course realsikhs would not do so. but lets face it there are a lot of sikhs, even a few amritdhari who are as bad as the worst non-sikhs. we cant just do this thing the muslims do where they say 'oh they're not real muslims' just to placate themselves and others.

i try and argue against irrationality and fundamentalism. i encourage the use of intellect rather than constant whinging/apathy/running and hiding in gurudwaras + any other stupid actions that sikhs like to use nowadays. there are other things but i dont like talking too much.

[ishvar2]

HSD,

1) Re: crying. That's your opinion. I feel it's a dismissive way of dealing with someone else's view and it's a rubbish way to win people over to your world view. Anyway, let's leave it at that as I am clearly not getting through to you.

2) Who is swimming against the stream? And who is laughing at them?

3) I don't want to get into who is and isn't a sikh as I don't care tbh. Only Guru Ji knows who meets the criteria. Yet saying that we can do as the muslims do, not to placate oursleves or others, but as a matter of fact/education to those acting in hankaar. As for non-sikhs I will continue to pray for sarbat da pala - and so will the rest of the Panth regardless of whether they are aware of this fact.

What do you actually do to intellectulize the panth apart from sharing your thoughts on forums?

[HSD1]

1. did i say i was dealing with their argument by just saying they cry? no.

2. those who swim against the stream are those who dont sit there and say everything that happens in life is beyond our control. those who laugh are the ones who sit in occidental luxury thinking that some divine influence is keeping them breathing (i.e. fundamentalists). there are other examples but i dont really see the point of going into them as certain people have misread them before and twisted some of them to give the wrong meaning.

3. actually i said that we cant do as the muslims do. and what they do is placate themselves and others by calling people who do certain things as 'not muslims'. also your comment: "and so will the rest of the Panth regardless of whether they are aware of this fact".... er how exactly? are you sure every sikh believes in whats good for the world? or what actual things are good for the entire world and will keep everyone happy? it looks like its not only the pro-khalistani sikhs who have to face up to some real-life questions.

i started to write what could be called literature and other things that will helpfully start to get people to use the brains we were given.

[ishvar2]

1. Nor did I state this was your only tactic - still it's a poor way to get your message off to a start. Try and dispute that, I think you'll find you can't.

2. By saying that everything is in God's control does not preclude one from one's responsibilities. We are have to play the game but the result is not ours. People who know, not intellectually, but spiritually with every fibre of their being that it is God who sustains them are the most awake and I would not label them fundamentalists.I dont think that makes them passive let alone laughing at others. Rather those are the people who will invariably awaken others. This includes awaking them to action!

I suppose that your body manifested itself? And the oxygen for you to breathe and food that grows is just coincidental? Maybe I lost you somewhere but I assumed you shared these core beliefs that all comes from God?! Yes, there are processes that govern life but all are His. Like life on Earth cannot exist without the Sun, nor can we exist without His Gifts!

Give me some examples - if I twist them then shame on me.

3. ' "and so will the rest of the Panth regardless of whether they are aware of this fact".... er how exactly? are you sure every sikh believes in whats good for the world? or what actual things are good for the entire world and will keep everyone happy? it looks like its not only the pro-khalistani sikhs who have to face up to some real-life questions.'

The point not that every sikh knows whats good for the world - instead they pray that all people prosper according to God's will i.e. on this level it doesn't matter how!

I agree sikhs of all persuasions have to real life questions, but that's nothing new. I look forward to people taking them on intelligently with determination and Gurkirpa.

[HSD1]

1. sometimes looking at what you say and putting real, thought out points across is a lot better than the whining that some people partake in. yes, its my opinion, but its based on fact. not just aimless slander.

2.well you managed to miss the point with my first example. firstly its obvious you are confusing spiritual gursikhs with fundamentalists. there is a massive difference, one that can only be known from experiences with those types of people. i hope you know what i mean. secondly, waheguru isnt some kind of micro manager. if you are sitting on your behind, food will not fly out of the fridge to your face. but thats the kind of attitude i see in so many sikhs nowadays. of course waheguru controls the outcomes that involve worldly factors. but each one of us is a factor, and we were given the chance to prove ourselves. and that includes others. i dont like it when some sikhs mistake the actions of others and planned world events as a sign of waheguru's hand in our lives. we cant comprehend the intelligence that made each universe. so being fundamentalist only drives us further from the truth or any chance of making our life count.

3. but thats a fundamental question: we all want people of the world to do better, but what about those who are warmongers/criminals/have ill-intent? of course they will be dealt with in the time after death, but that wont stop them from causing great harm now. so can we pray, but waheguru wont lightning bolt them will he (well he could, but i doubt that would happen)? is the khalsa still able to deal with the dushts who inhabit our planet? thats just one of the questions.

[DSG]

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru Ji ke Fateh

I believe justice needs to be done to help the people who suffered in 84 genocide . As other posts mention , will it work ? who will manage it ? are factors that need to be sorted out well in Advance and i believe the only way to do this is for all Sikh leaders of all sects/gurudawaras unite to work together , "all talk the same talk , walk the same walk" ( impossible you may think , but with wahegurus kirpa , one day it will be done)

On Sikh channel yesterday 84yr sevadar , moved to India from Canada to serve Punjabi , in terms of providing education to the poor , opening hospitals ( he has opened schools and hospitals and is doing an excellent service) he is not getting any support from SGPC at all .

He also mentioned , SGPC should freely produce literature about Sikhism and have people to distribute it to all the towns in punjab.

I also believe , we should target SGPC , and get them to serve the sangat , distribute free literature , open free schools , hospitals , etc.. hopefully this will start uniting the Sikhs , giving the local residents a purpose to stay in Punjab rather then flea to another country.

Talking from experience when i visited India last February , I went to the information Bureau at Amritsar to get some information about what information they provide , local gurudawaras, books about sikhism etc.. , the so called seva dar was so unhelpful and I think was shocked that I was asking for information rather than a "Sparsh" , I had to write information down myself on paper and did not have any literature about Sikhism / rehat maryada to give me, shocked I was . In Sri Darbar Sahib , I was speaking to an english couple from Manchester and London who asked me why there were no guides in the harmandir sahib , why there were no literature provided about the history of sri Harmandir sahib , I had no answer , and when I came back to the UK I was on a mission , I dont know how many times I emailed the secretary of Haramandir Sahib asking him about literature , guides etcc at the haramandir sahib , guess what , yep I had no response ... Still now and again I email him , hoping one day I'll get a reply

I think this is our biggest problem , we must learn to UNITE and then we can have our Khalistan , Justice , better society etc..

kema Da ja chuk ha

[Sat Chit Anand]

Buying an island seems to be like a good idea but will itself have many problems. Firstly money issues raising millions depending on size of the island. Secondly if the island is bought it is still owned by a country and is not its own country but the purchaser is a land owner, Most countries do not want to give up land, unless you find say a really poor or corrupt country that is willing to sell, You'll also need some kind of recognition from the international community. I think the biggest problem would be the need for citizens on the island; will Khalsitanis be willing to move there? How will it provide for the people, what jobs? Etc...

I can see how a island can be a starting base though but would still need a lot of thought and research to make it possible.

I wouldnt mind buying my own island once im filthy rich

[dalsingh101]

Sikh ethics seem dead. Without them a Khalistan would become an embarrassment.

Reality is, given the state of people right now and those entrenched in power, it would be a casteist, corrupt place, run by rogues.

Besides we haven't grown enough yet, we may still have morons shooting risque folk singers dead and other taleban type action thinkingthey are doing the Guru's work.

[HSD1]

Sikh ethics seem dead. Without them a Khalistan would become an embarrassment.

Reality is, given the state of people right now and those entrenched in power, it would be a casteist, corrupt place, run by rogues.

Besides we haven't grown enough yet, we may still have morons shooting risque folk singers dead and other taleban type action thinkingthey are doing the Guru's work.

ahem. are we alone in that? we have this idea that we have to be perfect before we can do anything. but everyone's idea of what this level we have to reach is different. i'm not saying what you mentioned is a good thing, but having some fundamentalist vision of khalistan being perfect with no crime, no bigots, no idiots, will never be true. not everyone in the panth has been perfect throughout history, but no one says lets ditch sikhi as we're rubbish at it.

[ishvar2]

HSD,

I'd like to see some real thinking from your part - that does not involve bashing out the same argument over and over again about the time for action is now. I get it.

Yeah, I missed you point completely as your idea of fundamentalist is my idea of an extremist or fanatic, and my idea of a fundamentalist is someone who stays true to the fundamentals of something - in letter and in spirit.

Maybe you are getting to some good questions but I don't know anything about your vision nor what would you would really like to see.

If you are going to produce literature to convince people it's going to have to be more compelling than just saying 'it's possible - act now!'.

[HSD1]

HSD,

I'd like to see some real thinking from your part - that does not involve bashing out the same argument over and over again about the time for action is now. I get it.

Yeah, I missed you point completely as your idea of fundamentalist is my idea of an extremist or fanatic, and my idea of a fundamentalist is someone who stays true to the fundamentals of something - in letter and in spirit.

Maybe you are getting to some good questions but I don't know anything about your vision nor what would you would really like to see.

If you are going to produce literature to convince people it's going to have to be more compelling than just saying 'it's possible - act now!'.

lol, maybe i'm not making myself clear but the time for action is when we are prepared. at the moment the only action we should concern ourselves with is laying the foundations of a sikh state. and one of the things to help that is to improve ourselves.

as for fundamentalist, i have a lot of words to describe them, but i dont think the mods would approve. look at the history of other religions and see what fundamentalism has done to them. religion isnt seperate from a nation/culture/individual. therefore if that religion is misinterpreted it has a ripple effect and not a good one. for example look at how fundamentalism took hold in islamic arabia when there empire was on the decline - and it was fundamentalism which retarded the region. look at america where fundamentalists are forcing kids to not learn proper science. if that continues the states will end up like the arab states did a few centuries ago. as for sikhs, we are different to the above examples as we are a small nation. therefore, the two examples of small nations suffering fundamentalism are the native americans at the end of the 19th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance) or the demise of Sparta (sorry i dont have a link).

my vision of khalistan (in a nutshell) is a prosperous superpower capable of incorporating non-sikhs but making them want to be part of our country. it will also be a country where a sikh can grow up and believe in sikhi how much they want and not be persecuted. that means devout sikhs wont fear that their beliefs are being altered by the country's institutions (like in hindustan) or a sikh could be a mona/keshdhari and not held back by people with a 'holier-than-thou'-complex. i could go on but i would like to know what your idea of what you want khalistan to be is.

also, it is possible and we do have to act now. but not in the way you think. i'm guessing you think i want a repeat of what happened in the 80s. if thats what you think, then i'll say it now: if it didnt work 25 years ago, it wont work now. thats why i say use our brains........ but before we do, we need to actually know how to use them.

[ishvar2]

Ok - I've already said that people need to develop but I feel not for Khalistan but for their jeevans and for the Panth. So in essence we agree on this point at least in some way (shocking I know) unless your methods wildly differ from those I have outlined already.

We differ on the meaning of fundamentalism, that's for sure. I feel the modern usage is incorrect, I feel the words fanatic or extremist is more apt.

We differ here as you know - I am not for or against khalistan. My vision therefore is unformulated as I have no desire for or against it. If I did have time to though-experiment it out - it would not be what you expect.

'i'm guessing you think i want a repeat of what happened in the 80s. if thats what you think, then i'll say it now: if it didnt work 25 years ago, it wont work now.'

You guessed wronged. That's why I asked what your vision was as the next logical question is how you do propose it will be achieved? I really think you have not thought this out as well as you make out.

[HSD1]

well the defintion of fundamentalist is a what i have said. a fundamentalist is not a fanatic; a fanatic is someone who believes what they believe in no matter how tough the going gets. an extremist is someone who has no reasoning at all and will go to extremes (!) just to carry out with their beliefs (similar to fundamentalists). a fundamentalist is basically a stupid person who is so simple they approach religous text with such naivety and ignorance that they end up contradicting their own made up quasi-religous beliefs.

as for achieving khalistan, well i'll start but i wont put down everything. it will start with the gurudwaras. using their money to set up lecture halls, libraries, it facilities etc which will nurture an environment where learning and oratorical skills are infused in those who are willing to learn. as well as this there should be halls for martial arts training and other self defences lessons. young sikhs should be encouraged to join the paramilitary forces of the countries they live in, so that they understand discipline and how to use guns. the idea that all good sikh kids become accoutants, doctors, dentists only should be rejected, and sikh kids should strive to be the best in their own chosen profession. actually i'm getting bored typing this, here's one i made earlier!: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry405390

[dalsingh101]

ahem. are we alone in that? we have this idea that we have to be perfect before we can do anything. but everyone's idea of what this level we have to reach is different. i'm not saying what you mentioned is a good thing, but having some fundamentalist vision of khalistan being perfect with no crime, no bigots, no idiots, will never be true. not everyone in the panth has been perfect throughout history, but no one says lets ditch sikhi as we're rubbish at it.

HSD

I'm not even looking for perfection. I'm just looking for a reasonable portion of people having level heads. My point was that we do not have the leadership for Khalsitan right now. Idealism in terms of partiotism is largely missing from the panth. These would totally compromise any Khalistan

[SURYADEV]

Haven't bovvered reading this thread but do have a question:

With Khalistan being a political entity and no more than that (ie not some heaven on earth that many would have believe); and individuals having the right to oppose it, should they wish.

Where does one stand if being a Panjabi Sikh they oppose the creation of Khalistan and is willing to use voilent means to prevent its creation?? Will he be classed as anti-gurmat, RSS, Kala-Afhana blah,blah blah??