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Slander Of Dasam Granth On Spn


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http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...t=0&start=0

I have observed that of lately Sikh philosophy network site is turning into a kala afghna mouthpiece. There

are some die hard anti Dasam Bani people who have been made mentors on that site. They slander bani of Dasam granth on one pretext or the other.

They also interpret SGGS ji in a totally different way. They write that there is no gurmantra and naam simran in sikhi. New meanings of Amrit vela are being given.Any effort to combat that is nipped in the bud.

Does anyone has experience on that site. Please share that here.

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they dont believe in Naam simran???

Incidentally it is noteworthy to point out that kala afghana reject

1) Concept of Gurmantra and waheguru as Gurmantra

2) He also rejects Naam simran and amrit vela

3) Says there is no soul

4) No belief in Karma, reincarnation

On the same line two mentors of kala afghan thought say

Nam simran is raed SGGS ji and that is naam simran. They do not believe that nam simran starts with jap and the by Guru's grace

it become simran and ajapa jap. They say it is Hinduism and those who believe in this are hindus.

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Singh2

Now you are being mischevious. SPN is probably more open than other Sikh forums. Its members and moderators (which includes me) are from a diverse background.

If a view is posted on SPN, it is foolish to think it reflects the beliefs of the forum because those involved themselves have different views.

It is a plain lie to say members do not believe in naam simraan and the other stuff you mentioned. Can I respectfully suggest you stop this please?

Gur Fateh

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It is a plain lie to say members do not believe in naam simraan and the other stuff you mentioned.

True, you can't generalise an entire forum, including this one or Sikhsangat. Every member has his/her own views.

Saying that, the most active members on SPN do seem to hold and propagate the views singh2 has mentioned above they also seem to be polemicists. A while back, there was a lot of nonsense written about Sant Jarnail Singh Ji and other Mahapursh and nothing was done.

Causing controversy for the sake of it is foolish.

However, if you have a problem with any forum, it should be sorted out there - post your counter arguments without getting personal and leave it at that.

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True, you can't generalise an entire forum, including this one or Sikhsangat. Every member has his/her own views.

Saying that, the most active members on SPN do seem to hold and propagate the views singh2 has mentioned above. A while back, there was a lot of nonsense written about Sant Jarnail Singh Ji and other Mahapursh and nothing was done.

Fact is some people have views markedly different of sant ji than you and I might. We must live with this and reply with solid arguments. The other option is to lose equilibrium and act like a nutter. Which usually just ends up helping the other side make their point better.

In any case, what some people consider to be a mahapursh, others consider to be a dera guru. Sant ji might be a brave Sikh warrior defender (sant sipahi) to me, but I have met many Sikhs who feel he was something else altogether (views I will not repeat). In the end, I hope SPN never takes a taleban approach and starts getting ban happy with Sikhs with differing views. There is enough of that already.

However, if you have a problem with views presented on any forum, them sort it out there.

I agree.

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Singh2

Now you are being mischevious. SPN is probably more open than other Sikh forums. Its members and moderators (which includes me) are from a diverse background.

If a view is posted on SPN, it is foolish to think it reflects the beliefs of the forum because those involved themselves have different views.

It is a plain lie to say members do not believe in naam simraan and the other stuff you mentioned. Can I respectfully suggest you stop this please?

Gur Fateh

he is not mischievious. it is you who has not understood. Who are your mentors. They are Giani jarnail singh and waheguruseeker They are hard core kala fghanis and atheists. They do not believe in naam simran. Read the thread and see their twisted logic.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth...unar-month.html

These people do not believe in Gurmantra and word waheguru as Gurmantra.

These mentors systematically post articles promoting blasphemy. Example was recent thread where Darshan singh Ragi condemns dasam granth in new York on June 25. Giani Jarnail was very quick to post that the next day ( Audio) Do not smell what is going on.

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Fact is some people have views markedly different of sant ji than you and I might. We must live with this and reply with solid arguments. The other option is to lose equilibrium and act like a nutter. Which usually just ends up helping the other side make their point better.

In any case, what some people consider to be a mahapursh, others consider to be a dera guru. Sant ji might be a brave Sikh warrior defender (sant sipahi) to me, but I have met many Sikhs who feel he was something else altogether (views I will not repeat). In the end, I hope SPN never takes a taleban approach and starts getting ban happy with Sikhs with differing views. There is enough of that already.

I agree.

Dalsingh101

Be truthful here. A number of times moderators and not forum memebers delete any post giving rferences form AKJ and Damdami taksal sources. One moderator openly says that these refrences are not allowed. Do you want proof of that? Why that. Are not these sikh organizations.

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However, if you have a problem with any forum, it should be sorted out there - post your counter arguments without getting personal and leave it at that.

matheen ji

It is not a personal probelm of anybody. That includes me. To combat anti sikh propaganda is the duty of every Sikh.

Since they clamp censorship on opposing views,It is perfectly in order to make sangat aware of anti sikh stance being promoted there especially permission to hurl abuses on our scriptures.

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If a view is posted on SPN, it is foolish to think it reflects the beliefs of the forum because those involved themselves have different views.

Please see the heading. It is slander of Dasam Granth. There should not be any diversity on teachings of our gurus. Those who do not want to follow can walk out.

It is not diversity but blasphemy.

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We normally don't allow discussion of issues members might have with other forums. However, this is exceptional case as its do with specific forums allowing and given its members platform to make blunt attacks/bold attack against sri dasam granth (very essential part of khalsa panth) without any scholar discussion, also given the fact- members from both parties can be rest assured to use sikhawareness as platform to clarify their stance without any worry of censorship. We will allow this thread to continue to seek truth and clarification from both parties of allegations made on this thread.

Ideal Singh aka Aman Singh from Sikh philosophy (admin), we invite you to give your side of the story, as other parties have shared some serious concerns and allegations towards Sikh Philosophy.

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We normally don't allow discussion of issues members might have with other forums. However, this is exceptional case as its do with specific forums allowing and given its members platform to make blunt attacks/bold attack against sri dasam granth (very essential part of khalsa panth) without any scholar discussion, also given the fact- members from both parties can be rest assured to use sikhawareness as platform to clarify their stance without any worry of censorship. We will allow this thread to continue to seek truth and clarification from both parties of allegations made on this thread.

Ideal Singh aka Aman Singh from Sikh philosophy (admin), we invite you to give your side of the story, as other parties have shared some serious concerns and allegations towards Sikh Philosophy.

N30 singh ji

Thanks for realizing the issues at stake. It is not a personal issue. I wrote there that you can hurl abuses on me but since your kala afghani mentors Giani and waheguruseeker are name calling Dasam granth, i will keep on confronting them even though they delete my posts.

Waheguruseeker was here but left when his bullying tactics were not allowed. He is welcome back. Discussion should be on dasam granth and basic sikh issues Gurmantra, waheguru as Gurmantra, naam simran, amrit vela , soul, karma and reincarnation.

Aman singh came to post on Sikh sangat and he was replied to. Below is the link

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...12&start=12

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Please see the heading. It is slander of Dasam Granth. There should not be any diversity on teachings of our gurus. Those who do not want to follow can walk out.

It is not diversity but blasphemy.

Singh2 are you Inder Singh on SS?

Besides do you really want the position of judge and jury on the members of the quom? That is a bit hankaari mate.

The deal with SPN is this. From my own perspective, as you grow older you realise that like it or not people have different opinions. I don't want to spend my life trying to persuade people to think like me.

Anyone who has spent time reading Sikh history seriously will aso realise that diversity was the norm in the late 1700s panth. There were Udasis, nirmalas, nihungs, sehaj dharis etc. So this diversity is nothing new from what I understand.

I don't agree with your excluding attitude Singh2, I believe the panth must grow. Besides, are you not human and prone to errors? Because the way you go on brother is like you are perfect and people who hold dissenting views to your own are absolute blasphemous.

Now people are dragging me into their own negativity. Everyone just chill. Put your arguments across calmly and in due time the best arguments will win.

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Singh2 are you Inder Singh on SS?

Besides do you really want the position of judge and jury on the members of the quom? That is a bit hankaari mate.

The deal with SPN is this. From my own perspective, as you grow older you realise that like it or not people have different opinions. I don't want to spend my life trying to persuade people to think like me.

Anyone who has spent time reding Sikh history seriously will aso realise that diversity was the norm in the late 1700s panth. There were Udasis, nirmalas, nihungs, sehaj dharis etc. So this is nothing new from what I understand.

I don't agree with your excluding attitude Singh2, I believe the panth must grow. Besides, are yu not human and prone to errors? because the way you g on brother is like you are perfect and people who hold dissenting views to your own are absolute blasphemous.

Now people are dragging me into their own negativity. Everyone just chill. Put your arguments across calmly and in due time the best arguments will win.

Yes i am Inder singh in the same way as you are dal singh.

Dal singh ji, religion does not conform with time. Your history knowledge is also flawed. Udasis, Nirmalas Nihungs were there in guru ji's times also.There is no permanent category as sehajdhari in sikhism, Read Bhai Kahan singh ji's maha kosh.

I say that our scriptures are final. No religion allows debate on authenticity of its scriptures. Then we are openinga pandora's box as human have different opinions.

Please show me a reference form sikh history where authenticity of Dasam granth which is our accepted scritpure is challenged. i am ready to go with you if you show me one.

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Dal singh ji, religion does not conform with time.

No but sustained study over time/generations can help in developing a higher level of understanding compared to some other previous points in history.

Your history knowledge is also flawed. Udasis, Nirmalas Nihungs were there in guru ji's times also.

So, there we go. We have always had diversity. I notice that the nirmalas interpret Sikhi from a very vedantic view point as their education in Benares would encourage. Also udasis covering themselves in ashes and walking around half naked is hardly orthodox. Besides are you pushing nihung beliefs as the norm in Sikhi?

There is no permanent category as sehajdhari in sikhism, Read Bhai Kahan singh ji's maha kosh.

Sure but Sikhs who weren't Khalsa have always been their. At one point they were called Khulasah Sikhs or something like that. See Siques, Tigers and Thieves.

I say that our scriptures are final. No religion allows debate on authenticity of its scriptures. Then we are openinga pandora's box as human have different opinions.

No one is doubting SGGS ji! That is our final scripture. Besides, I think DG is matter relating to mainly temporal issues. These change over time and so must our understanding of them. Besides are you saying that all worldly knowledge is contained in DG and that we have no need to study other material for worldly knowledge? If DG is part of our literature then let us not underplay the importance of other literature for Sikhs also. Besides, much of the source material of DG was already in existence and had been re-constructed for whatever purpose.

Please show me a reference form sikh history where authenticity of Dasam granth which is our accepted scritpure is challenged. i am ready to go with you if you show me one
.

Again brother. I am not in the conversion business. But the simple fact is that for the majority of orthodox Sikhs, it is the SGGS ji that is the accepted scripture that is present in a Gurdwara. DG prakash is a minority practice, mainly by nihungs.

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No but sustained study over time/generations can help in developing a higher level of understanding compared to some other previous points in history.

Academic study and spiritual study are completely different realms. Spiritual study does not need Ph Ds Guru sahib has written

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥:

Jo praanee Govind dhiaavai. Parhiaa anparhiaa param gati paavai ||1||:

That mortal who meditates on God, whether educated or uneducated, obtains the Supreme State ||1||

(sggs 197)

So, there we go. We have always had diversity. I notice that the nirmalas interpret Sikhi from a very vedantic view point as their education in Benares would encourage. Also udasis covering themselves in ashes and walking around half naked is hardly orthodox. Besides are you pushing nihung beliefs as the norm in Sikhi?

They were sent for education to benares to learn language of hindu scriptures. The idea was when engaged in debate they should know Hindu scriptures. guru ji knew that Sikhs will have to enter in dialogue with Hindus to prove their view point.

Example is debate of Giani diit singh with Swami daya nand where Daya nand was defeated.

Niramalas were finest sikh scholars. Do not tell me that Attar singh ji Mastuana was following Vedanta. All sikhs were nihungs in the beginning. Guru gobind singh was himself a Nihung. Read your history.

Sure but Sikhs who weren't Khalsa have always been their. At one point they were called Khulasah Sikhs or something like that. See Siques, Tigers and Thieves.

But they were all keshadharis on the way to become khalsa.

No one is doubting SGGS ji! That is our final scripture. Besides, I think DG is matter relating to purely temporal issues. These change over time and so must our understanding of them. Besides are you saying that all worldly knowledge is contaned in DG and that we have no need to study other material for worldly knowledge? If DG is part of our literature then let us not underplay the importanc of other literature for Sikhs also. Besides, much of the source material of DG was already in existence and had been re-constructed.

Sikhs have two gurus, Guru Granth and guru panth. guru panth is for temporal affairs of sikhs. A sikh is a saint-soldier. That is why Harmandir sahib and akal takhat. We are not comparing our Granths. both granths are equally important and are not rivals. They complement each other. Nothing change overtime. that is your concept but not of sikhs at large and akal takhat.

Source material of some compositions was in existence but it was changed drastically to conform to sikh thought.

.

Again brother. I am not in the conversion business. But the simple fact is that for the majority of orthodox Sikhs, it is the SGGS ji that is the accepted scripture that is present in a Gurdwara. DG prakash is a minority practice, mainly by nihungs.

DG parkash ws always there. read below

Guru-mata - Sir John Malcolm (1812 AD)

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august- theodore- schoefft-ds-ranjit-singh

Maharaja Ranjit Singh listening to the two sacred Granths being recited near Sri Harimandir Sahib.

(A Painting by August Theodore Schoefft (1809-1888), made in Amritsar. From Princess Bamba Collection)

Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab,written by Sir John Malcolm* in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century .

Guru-mata

When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs.

When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab.

(pages. 120-123)

________________________

*Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836)

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Good info although I don't agree with your definition of Khulasah.

I'm off now but again I make a plea to all. Debate rationally and respectfully between yourselves on such matters. Learn to accomodate difference, that is where our unity lies.

WJKK

WJKF

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Good info although I don't agree with your definition of Khulasah.

I'm off now but again I make a plea to all. Debate rationally and respectfully between yourselves on such matters. Learn to accomodate difference, that is where our unity lies.

WJKK

WJKF

What is khulash?

Dal singh ji, let us not try to justify our weaknesses to follow sikh rehat for belittling our religious scriptures. That has become a fashion these days. That is what mntors of SPN are preaching to sikh youngsters.

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What happened with the Dasam Granth Discusion there was purely a game on the mentors side. The mento had no knowledge and was just questioning every little detail. Which a 7 year old can do; just keep asking why, and when, not hard. Eventually the mentor ran out of why's and what's so he started the personal attacks but in a discrete way, which is really obvious, but admins allow it because its their 'praise worthy' mentor . As soon as just a member attacks back, the admin steps in to warn and threaten the member it's not allowed. Then the member usually says the other started, but the admin will make some outrages and side step the facts. This is the strategy they use. They purposely push a person buttons and try to discredits the person as much as possible. Then eventually one of there associate will come along and say how can we believe you. Everythign is said and done, they dust off their hands and wait for the next member that doesn't agree with them and they start their attack allover again. It's only a game to SPN founders and mentors and they get a kick out of it.

None of those guys (founders and mentors) can be trusted. Well that's my opinion I wrote there as Singh. At the end a mod was just deleting my post because he just didn't like me and hates Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa with passion. Also i don't know why they keep saying i was kicked off the site when i just left on my own. OOO well just another fluff story SPN can drink some tea over.

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are you guys talking about the same giani jarnail singh person who is also known an arshi jarnail singh on tapoban long time ago? I remember tapoban sevadars provided him with the cozy spot on their forum and provided him with platform to spew gand against sants of the panth ie- baba nand singh ji , baba isher singh ji and many others?

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What happened with the Dasam Granth Discusion there was purely a game on the mentors side. The mento had no knowledge and was just questioning every little detail. Which a 7 year old can do; just keep asking why, and when, not hard. Eventually the mentor ran out of why's and what's so he started the personal attacks but in a discrete way, which is really obvious, but admins allow it because its their 'praise worthy' mentor . As soon as just a member attacks back, the admin steps in to warn and threaten the member it's not allowed. Then the member usually says the other started, but the admin will make some outrages and side step the facts. This is the strategy they use. They purposely push a person buttons and try to discredits the person as much as possible. Then eventually one of there associate will come along and say how can we believe you. Everythign is said and done, they dust off their hands and wait for the next member that doesn't agree with them and they start their attack allover again. It's only a game to SPN founders and mentors and they get a kick out of it.

None of those guys (founders and mentors) can be trusted. Well that's my opinion I wrote there as Singh. At the end a mod was just deleting my post because he just didn't like me and hates Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa with passion. Also i don't know why they keep saying i was kicked off the site when i just left on my own. OOO well just another fluff story SPN can drink some tea over.

you are right. i was alone. I caught them many times on wrong footing. They were deleting my replies. Then i caught them stealing someone's article and putting undder Giani Jarnail singh's name. Giani cann't write such articles. That article was written by anthonia for him.

Also the subject thread is Amrit vela and see what reasoning so called mentor isdoing.

Please see below

Aman singh

Kala afghani mentor of SPN wrote in his article

Quote

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth...ar-month-3.html

Now, I personally like the latter, but the prevailing meaning is the prior one...

I searched for "Amrit Vela" in Guru Granth Sahib, and found only 3 shabads (please correct if I am wrong):

1. Amrit Vela, Sach Naao, Vadeyai Veechar (Pg.2) <PAGE 2 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here it means the time of full blossom, the time of enlightenment

2. Amrit Velae Vatay Har Bhagti, Har Liv Laayi (Pg 734) <PAGE 734 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here, in the meanings, he meant "the ealry time of spiritual life"

3. Babiha Amrit Velae boleya <PAGE 1285 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here Prof Sahib means the dawn, but I know that BrainFever bird or Babiha, shrieks all day and night before monsoon.

More, by Shaikh Fareed ji "PAGE 1383 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan)."Fareeda, pichhal raat na jaageyoh, jeevadro muyeoh"

Could this mean the dawn of the life, instead of usual day's dawn??

unquote

The above is a direct copy from Babiha's blog

See below

BABIHA

I searched for "Amrit Vela" in Guru Granth Sahib, and found only 3 shabads (please correct if I am wrong):

1. Amrit Vela, Sach Naao, Vadeyai Veechar (Pg.2) <PAGE 2 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here it means the time of full blossom, the time of enlightenment

2. Amrit Velae Vatay Har Bhagti, Har Liv Laayi (Pg 734) <PAGE 734 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here, in the meanings, he meant "the ealry time of spiritual life"

3. Babiha Amrit Velae boleya <PAGE 1285 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here Prof Sahib means the dawn, but I know that BrainFever bird or Babiha, shrieks all day and night before monsoon.

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25573 (Amrit vela on moon ? Once a lunar month !!)://http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showt...nth !!)://http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showt...nth !!)://http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showt...nth !!)

More, by Shaikh Fareed ji "PAGE 1383 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan)."Fareeda, pichhal raat na jaageyoh, jeevadro muyeoh"

Could this mean the dawn of the life, instead of usual day's dawn??

Since, I am trying to look at every angle and then finding the Truth, so that it cannot be shaken from any angle, let us go in Science now...

Now you tell me why they are doing this. Hypocrites and liars.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...=12#entry420869

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are you guys talking about the same giani jarnail singh person who is also known an arshi jarnail singh on tapoban long time ago? I remember tapoban sevadars provided him with the cozy spot on their forum and provided him with platform to spew gand against sants of the panth ie- baba nand singh ji , baba isher singh ji and many others?

He is the same person. A super class idiot , an atheist and anti dasam granth person.

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"Anyone who has spent time reading Sikh history seriously will aso realise that diversity was the norm in the late 1700s panth. There were Udasis, nirmalas, nihungs, sehaj dharis etc. So this diversity is nothing new from what I understand.".

The issue in question is Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Kindly provide one 18th C reference suggesting there was any diverstiy amongst the Sikhs with regards to the writings being those of Dasm Patshah.

Ta.

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singh2

Sikhs have two gurus, Guru Granth and guru panth. guru panth is for temporal affairs of sikhs. A sikh is a saint-soldier. That is why Harmandir sahib and akal takhat. We are not comparing our Granths. both granths are equally important and are not rivals. They complement each other. Nothing change overtime. that is your concept but not of sikhs at large and akal takhat.

theres no such 'guru panth'. seems like sikh clergy have fabricated this idea in order to seize power. Akal Takht was Guru Hargobind's throne. Much later after Guru Gobind Singh's times some Singhs used to convene there to have democratic meetings. it seems peopel are confusing this as meaning 'guru panth'.

The Akal Takht as used in the modern sense seems fabricated. These people of SGPC sitting there thinking they can issue hukamnamas to the panth are deluded. SGPC are an administrative body, Akal Takt is not theres to sit on.

Infact all 5 takhts are a modern fabrication. They are not a Guru tradition.

Im tired of 'Institutional sikhi' being forced onto all of panth.

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