Niddar Singh Gone International

[shaheediyan]

No on e is saying that SV was some unique artform. There are may artforms in Indian that share many similarities and which existed during the times of the Gurus i.e. Marathas, Afghans, Mughals, Persians all had advanced fighting techniques - which is known by the weaponary they used - and until 100 years or so ago, Musalman akaaras existed in the Punjab region also - it was not uncommon for Sikhs and Muslims to test their vidya against each other in these settings.

SV is part of an older Kshatriya tradition, as per all art forms, be them sangeet, poetry, language - our Gurus simply adopted and re-established them to their supreme form. This does not mean they did not continue to exist in various forms elsewhere, and in fact they still do in India and across SE Asia.

No one is saying Nihang Nidar Singh knows the full art form, or anywhere near, we will never know what the complete art was now, but at least we are lucky enough to have the amount we do. What I can say is that Nihang Nidar Singh has a vast amount of knowledge, not something you can learn in a couple of years like other martial arts - its vast and extensive and encompasses many weapons and open handed forms, all at different levels of competance. So it is not a matter of simply inheriting a few 'moves' either.

The chakkar wheel is a popular display amongst GATKA Akharas. It is wheel spun around melodiously over the head, to the front, lying down etc.

It is said to be able to sheild against oncoming arrows, but practitioners of ancient martial arts in South India also use the chakar, and their historical records show that the wheel was used to frighten War Elephants, with cotton balls on fire tied to the edge of the outer rim creating an effect of a huge oncoming flame...

It is a wonderful, colourful and highly skillful display of control nonetheless - but in Sikh usage is nothing more than a circus act.

Nidar Singh once threw a stone at one these performers, who had a psychotic episode and confronted Nidar Singh asking him why he did that, Nidar Singh simply said he was testing the wheel - the gatka ustad said it didn't work against stones, just arrow. That pretty much says it all.

Dalsingh, you need to attend one of Nidar Singhs talks, he actually uses some of these pictures and many others to explain the SV content or lack of and reasons behind it. Interestingly enough, having a quick glance, I see some Singhs holding a kirpan in one hand and kataari in the other hand - i expect they lost their musket or gunpowder supply and resorted to hand to hand - which is the basic training and premise (roti if you like) of all modern warfare. So yes, SV woulf have been used as a last resort in the case of the examples of relatively modern European warfare you have portrayed above. I could go into more detail, but it wouldn't do this interesting subject justice, I think there are some talks on this very subject in Central Londn in september (check out the Anglo-Sikh Heritage website - and attend the talks).

Same goes for anyone else - Nidar Singh should be doing lectures their - instead of wasting time speculating - go the talks loaded with your questions - and please, feedback!

[shaheediyan]

Tony, the SV we are talking about is intricately linked to the weapons used. Looking at the above paintings of Singhs in European clothing and using European weapons, one can easily see that SV serves no purpose. Look at an Akali armed to the teeth with all manners of puratan shastar fro the same period and you have your answer.

I can hardly be a painter if I don't carry a paint brush.

[ipledgeblue]

In my copy of Niddar's (then the 'Chatka Gatka Ustad, Jathedar Buddha Dal UK') first ever publication (by the then Institute of Sikh Martial Arts) he states that the art was revealed by Guru Nanak Sahib Ji to Baba Buddha Ji who then taught it to Guru Hargobind Sahib......? (never mind that Gurbani tells us they were one and the same, but that's another matter).

YEs Guru NAnak Dev Ji taught it to BAba Buddha ji.

Guru HarGobind Sahib actually added 2 pentras

[tonyhp32]

Tony, the SV we are talking about is intricately linked to the weapons used. Looking at the above paintings of Singhs in European clothing and using European weapons, one can easily see that SV serves no purpose. Look at an Akali armed to the teeth with all manners of puratan shastar fro the same period and you have your answer.

I can hardly be a painter if I don't carry a paint brush.

Let's accept that the Lahore army during it's modernisation lost all knowledge of SV. What you haven't been able to refute is why SV the so-called Khalsa Martial Art suddenly disappeared from other Sikh armies which did not modernise like the Lahore Army. History is a lot more complicated than SV fairies stories and daft theories like 'the british banned it and it almost disappeared'

Edited August 17, 2009 by tonyhp32

[dalsingh101]

You know, I don't knock Niddar for what he is doing, even if there may be levels of bullshit involved. If he is packaging this as some lost art to reconnect the youth, than good luck to him.

Is he not simply doing what Alex Haley did wth Roots when he created a hypothetical position that gave African Americans a vision of the past they could connect to?

It is only his "Hinduism" that is problematic to some of us (esp. the post 1984 generation). Truth is that from what I understand many nihung deras interpret the past within a Hindu framework. For those of us (like me), who were raised in a Singh Sabha influenced environment, it may seem strange, but we have to acknowledge that this may well be what people believed in the past in terms of cosmology. The heavy use of Hindu mythology/imagery in Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth point at that. I mean they were unlikely to view the world in terms of evolution or any other modern idea we may take for granted now.

Underneath all of this is that niggling question (AGAIN) of our relationship to Hinduism.

[Maha Singh]

There was talk of such a science of archery and stick fighting only a few years ago in the Punjab that listening of it the English-educated young men will consider it astonishing. In sincerity I believe present day young men might just consider these skills and Shastar Vidiya most likely impossible, because they have not even seen those bows never mind stringing them. Like this, many sciences and skills after attaining their heights have declined. Before 1857 many quivers full of arrows, matchlocks, flintlock guns, swords, lances, spears, Sang (long metal lance), Kata’s (punch daggers], Peshkabz [armour-piercing Afghan dagger), pistols, shields etc., weapons, armour and many types of chainmail was found house to house, and all the people in their homes learned and taught Shastar Vidiya and became complete soldiers. now no one even speaks of these skills the sons of brave warriors are becoming engrossed in making money, even to us who have employed Shastar Vidiya, it is becoming a dream. In another fifty years or so, this Vidiya would have dried up and people will say it (past skills) were but, all lies’

(‘Twarikh Guru Khalsa’, Giani Gian Singh Nirmala (1899) Vol.1, Pa. 36-37)

[dalsingh101]

Nice one Maha Singh.

[shaheediyan]

Thats exactly my point, thanks for the quote Maha Singh.

No paint brush, no painter. Tony, the armies you mention did not carry these weapons, let alone the skills associated with them, the British saw to that, if anything, these independant units would have replicated the ruling British rvaaj of the time.

Its really no big mystery - for a reknowned acadmic of the time to state what he has above - should clear all doubt, esp that of it being Nihang Nidar Singhs fantasy.

Truth is, most people - as per Singh Sabiya role models, were in British employ or education, and learning to see the world/Sikhi through Victorian eyes, to be worried about outdated Sikh art forms.

Anyway, if you choose to be skeptical about our heritage, thats your choice, you wouldn't be the 1st - your loss.

The shame is that people do all this internet research and share their wiki/ggogle derived expert opinions - without even having stepped in the akaara and tested the art/knowledge associated with it, it says it all about the seriousness of ones research/value of opinions.

[Matheen]

.......... or Niddar Singh (who started learning from young age as a mona with little knowledge of Sikhi) warped the teachings of Baba Mohinder Singh and added the Sanatan idology himself........

Spot on. I don't know how long you've known him, but his ideology has definitely changed a lot over the years so it can't be attributed to his late gurdev. I think he doesn't believe half the stuff he says himself, but controversy is good for publicity. He has a right to belive whatever he wants, but shouldn't pass it off as 'what Nihangs believe', and shouldn't pass off lies as truth.

I have no issues with shastar vidiya, I get happy when I see apne doing anything physical, so I hope more and more SIkhs learn martial arts, whatever they may be.

On another note, as weapons improved and evolved, surely the Khalsa would have had to adapt. The words shastar vidiya literally mean 'knowledge of weapons' so can't have been limited. Even learning to drive a tank or fly a fighter jet is technically shastar vidiya, albeit not 'puratan'.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Matheen

[Maha Singh]

Please elabortate on how his ideology has changed, what did he say before and what does he say now.

Shastarvidiya can be adapted to modern weapons no doubt, even when Muskets were introduced to India the Singhs became masters of them. In the Akhara we have learnt how to disarm guns, and some singhs practise at firing ranges. But above all, Shastarvidiya is based upon the mastery of how to weild bladed weapons, learning how to fire a gun, or string a bow or even drive a tank (!) is not as complicated and intricate as swordsmanship, while the previous can be learnt reletivily quickly and sharpened through repitition of aiming and shooting, swordsmanship creates a multitude of variables which can only be learnt through years and years of training and experience. I used to be a keen archer with a club, when i got competant at it i stopped practising and put my focus back into Shastarvidiya as all archery takes is repitition to get groupings. Those who have a good nishana can quickly get their eye and aim back to speed, whilst neglect of swordsmanship quickly deteriates your skill and comes takes a very long time to get back to that level again. Your more likely to be attacked in the street by soemone with a knife as you are likely to have to get in a tank and start launching shells.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Maha Singh

[dalsingh101]

The other thing is the chakars that Sikh were meant to use like deadly iron frisbees. I think if they were ever used in battle, their use had become defunct by the time of the Anglo-Sikh wars. There is no mention of them or any white soldiers being wounded by them.

I think I will check out Niddar, just to see the martial art, I wont go for religious advice...but he must have learnt some valuable things in all that time with nihungs back home.

[Maha Singh]

Your comparison between Raag Kirtan and SV is incorrect. Whereas it was not a case that all Sikhs would have known Kirtan, all Sikhs by virtue of being Amritdhari Khalsa would have had to learn some martial skills and that could only have been SV.

If all Sikhs by virtue should know Shastarvidiya or some form of Martial Arts, what has happened to it? The quote above from Gyani Gyan Singh shows that by the late 1800s Shastarvidiya was beggining to disapear fast.

Maharaja Ranjit Singh may very well have disregarded SV for his modernised army, but that does not mean that with a few decades none of the soldiers in the Lahore army would have had no knowledge of SV. What the promoters of SV are claiming is that SV was the KHALSA MARTIAL ART. It cannot be that if throughout its history only a few Nihangs were privy to SV.

Due to the nature of having to dedicate so much time to the learning of various arts, as Raag is a specialist artform which would be learnt by Raagis, there would also be a hierachy in terms of warriors. Singhs who were not part of formal armies and lived a sedentary lifestyle with families would be enlisted during times of need by the Akalis. In terms of skill, the grishti singhs would have enough skill to take part in battles, knowing formation fighting and understanding how to keep ranks, however they would be no where close to the vanguard warriors whos role it was to smash the ranks of the enemies. The Akalis and Nihangs would be dedicated armies who would sacrifice their lives towards the art of war, learning and teaching other Singhs to build up their numbers. Singhs who showed potential of becoming Bhujangis would be enlisted fulltime if possible and would be taught the higher skills of swordsmanship.

The Akalis would be on the front lines with a "ring fence" around the grishti singhs when engaged in battle to protect them. The average Singh would be there to make up the numbers whilst the skills of the Akalis would be enough to break through ranks and start killing. As the Akalis smash through the ranks the other singhs would sweep up the fallen enemies, trampling them under foot and smashing their heads with clubs, axes and maces, normally swords were not given to lower skilled warriors.

If you read texts such as Baba Tegha Singh, which is an interview of an old veteran warrior by Kahn Singh Nabha, you will see how much difference a single vanguard warrior can make to a battle.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Maha Singh

[Maha Singh]

Sorry but I had to ask.

Did Sikhs really actually use some version of that weapon which currently resembles a web made of ropes that you twist around repeatedly, presumaby to turn your self into a "deadly human circular saw" type thing?

What is that thing called?

Dasam Granth mentions lots of weapons, is this one mentioned?

It just looks dodgy for:

A ) Carrying about

B ) Defending yourself from an abrupt attack whilst using it

C ) Defending yourself from musket/pistol or arrow fire

Anyone know anything about it? I can see how it could be used for physical training but was it used in battles?

The Chakri is actually a south indian "weapon" and was introduced to the Punjab by traveling bazigar in early 1900s as a circus act. It was originally used by the South Indians to distract war elephants by lighting the ends on fire and spinning it infront of them, as they got close they would throw the Chakri ontop of them, setting them on fire. By the times of the Gurus, the introduction of muskets and high quality armour peircing lances disregarded the use of such tools. To stop the spinning of the Chakri, you just need to put an obstacle infront of it and it will just become tangled up.

[Maha Singh]

I think I will check out Niddar, just to see the martial art, I wont go for religious advice...but he must have learnt some valuable things in all that time with nihungs back home.

Let us know what you thought.

[tonyhp32]

There was talk of such a science of archery and stick fighting only a few years ago in the Punjab that listening of it the English-educated young men will consider it astonishing. In sincerity I believe present day young men might just consider these skills and Shastar Vidiya most likely impossible, because they have not even seen those bows never mind stringing them. Like this, many sciences and skills after attaining their heights have declined. Before 1857 many quivers full of arrows, matchlocks, flintlock guns, swords, lances, spears, Sang (long metal lance), Kata’s (punch daggers], Peshkabz [armour-piercing Afghan dagger), pistols, shields etc., weapons, armour and many types of chainmail was found house to house, and all the people in their homes learned and taught Shastar Vidiya and became complete soldiers. now no one even speaks of these skills the sons of brave warriors are becoming engrossed in making money, even to us who have employed Shastar Vidiya, it is becoming a dream. In another fifty years or so, this Vidiya would have dried up and people will say it (past skills) were but, all lies’

(‘Twarikh Guru Khalsa’, Giani Gian Singh Nirmala (1899) Vol.1, Pa. 36-37)

Are you just good at cutting and pasting off the Shastarvidya site or have the seen the quote itself? I'm not saying the quote doesn't exist but I haven't seen it on the pages specified on the site that hosts Twarikh Guru Khalsa http://www.ik13.com/twarikh_guru_khalsa.htm

I suppose you saw the original quote, I would be grateful if you could point me to the correct page on that site, it would be good to compare the original and the translation.

[Mithar]

Are you just good at cutting and pasting off the Shastarvidya site or have the seen the quote itself? I'm not saying the quote doesn't exist but I haven't seen it on the pages specified on the site that hosts Twarikh Guru Khalsa http://www.ik13.com/twarikh_guru_khalsa.htm

I suppose you saw the original quote, I would be grateful if you could point me to the correct page on that site, it would be good to compare the original and the translation.

Interesting. I have Twarik Guru Khalsa. I have also never read this quote from Niddar's site. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but just that I will remain doubtful whether or not this really exists until I see it in Twarik Guru Khalsa.

[ishvar2]

Maha Singh Ji,

Where you stated 'sedementary lifestyle'?!

I think you meant sedentary lifestyle! I can't imagine you meant gristi singhs lead a lifestyle that resembled sedimentary rock.

[Matheen]

Please elabortate on how his ideology has changed, what did he say before and what does he say now.

It would take pages, lol. Since you're going to India, try and meet Jathedar Akaali Ninang Joginder Singh Ji Buddha Dal and Baba Surjit SIngh Ji, if you can, and compare their ideology to Niddar's current one. Also ask the Fauj why Niddar had a gun put to his head......

[dalsingh101]

Is someone posting things as quotes that don't exist?

[ipledgeblue]

The Chakri is actually a south indian "weapon" and was introduced to the Punjab by traveling bazigar in early 1900s as a circus act. It was originally used by the South Indians to distract war elephants by lighting the ends on fire and spinning it infront of them, as they got close they would throw the Chakri ontop of them, setting them on fire. By the times of the Gurus, the introduction of muskets and high quality armour peircing lances disregarded the use of such tools. To stop the spinning of the Chakri, you just need to put an obstacle infront of it and it will just become tangled up.

Yeh Niddar Singh talks about it a lot these days, as well as gatka lolz

[tonyhp32]

Is someone posting things as quotes that don't exist?

The quote might exist but I couldn't locate it at the page that it states it is on in the quote. I am always weary of taking quotes on face value from the Shastarvidya site considering I had found that most of the quotes used by the creator of that site five years ago were lifted wholesale from an RSS website. It does sound odd that a Nihang needs Banias to translate Gurbani for him! Volume one of Twarikh Guru Khalsa deals with Sikh history during the Guru period. That quote would certainly look out of place in that volume.

The 1857 reference does seem strange considering the disarmament of the Punjab would have been right after 1849 and 1857 would have a time when the British would have re-armed certain classes of Sikhs in the hope that they would back the British which they of course did.

[Maha Singh]

Maha Singh Ji,

Where you stated 'sedementary lifestyle'?!

I think you meant sedentary lifestyle! I can't imagine you meant gristi singhs lead a lifestyle that resembled sedimentary rock.

Apologies, Yes thats what I meant lol.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Maha Singh

[Maha Singh]

Are you just good at cutting and pasting off the Shastarvidya site or have the seen the quote itself? I'm not saying the quote doesn't exist but I haven't seen it on the pages specified on the site that hosts Twarikh Guru Khalsa http://www.ik13.com/twarikh_guru_khalsa.htm

I suppose you saw the original quote, I would be grateful if you could point me to the correct page on that site, it would be good to compare the original and the translation.

The quote is available on that ik13 library. If you open up the volume on Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and go to the Bhumika, scroll down to page 22 you can read from there. In the Bhumika Gyani Ji explanis the halaat (circumstances) of the current period.

Could you cite the RSS website where you claim that Niddar Singh lifted his quotes from.

Fateh

Edited August 18, 2009 by Maha Singh

[Mithar]

The quote is available on that ik13 library. If you open up the volume on Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and go to the Bhumika, scroll down to page 22 you can read from there. In the Bhumika Gyani Ji explanis the halaat (circumstances) of the current period.

Could you cite the RSS website where you claim that Niddar Singh lifted his quotes from.

Fateh

Maha Singh is right. The quote does exist.

[tonyhp32]

If you read the whole section it is basically a lament about the fact that people of his era have forgotten the use of weapons. It is Shastarvidya the knowledge of the use of various weapons and not Shastar Vidya the so-called Khalsa Martial Art. Giani Gian Singh states that he had knowledge of the use of weapons but yet although lamenting the fact that people no longer learn these arts he doesn't go on to write in any great deal about these arts. If it was the Khalsa martial Art one would have thought that just as he was writing the history to enlighten people he would have written a lot more on this art. It is interesting that Giani Gian Singh mentions pistols as part of Shastarvidya or at least the laments the loss of these weapons from the homes of Sirdars. Is the use of a pistol also a part of Shastar Vidya?

Another interesting aspect of the quote is that he does not blame any British genocide of Nihangs or British ban on weapons for the loss of Shastarvidya. If you read the rest of the quote he goes on to criticise the general softening of the youth of Punjab.