Clarification To Avoid Hostilities.

[Kaljug]

Third Panth. There are only 2 religions in the world and Sikh-ism has become the third? Or this has a different meaning. Panth means Path. Sikhi is the middle way, it walks between the extremes of false religiousity that are external ornaments people use to identify true spirituality but is far from it. Third path between Hindus and Thuraks can only mean the way of Bhakti.

Thanks for displaying your ignorance again. You haven't even read those granths I am referring to and you have already made up your mind as to what teesra Panth must refer to in order that it fits in with your beliefs. All puratan Sikh granths refer to teesra Panth as the Khalsa Panth.

I'm done with you because it's clear that you are not here to learn anything, you are simply here to spread your ignorance.

K.

[Dharma]

Harjas kaur ji

If you want to live in your imaginery world then Its OK.What matter to people what happened and what is happening in real world.The victory of congress in 1984 after the massacre of sikhs clearly shows that sikhs are not considered part of Hindu society.HKL bhagat in 1984 won by over 5 lakh votes do you think that those votes were of muslims or christians?

Though in 1984 many Hindu's saved lives of sikhs .but on the other hand they did not shun congress party for

riots.the urban sikh community of Delhi did not participated in khalistan movement and they were very close to Hindu's.Many had similar thinking that they are part of larger Hindu society until blood thirsty mob reached their homes.

Mahatma Gandhi and Rajiv were also assasinated by Hindu's but not even a single mandir was burnt in retalition while in Delhi alone after the death of Indira 3/4 Gurdwara's were burnt.All the killer of sikhs got spectacular victories in the election of 1984

I agree with every word of this.

[HarjasDevi]

All puratan Sikh granths refer to teesra Panth as the Khalsa Panth.

KHALSA Panth is those who follow Pure Truth with Pure Heart~!

Not politically minded power-hungry manmukh corrupted people (as is basic nature of everyone in the world) who happen to keep kakkars. So Third Path OBVIOUSLY is the spiritual people.

[Guest zulu]

worshipped the great Lobster God in the Sky

K.

Flying Spaghetti Monster = pastafarian lol

[HarjasDevi]

That's a pretty way of covering up your lie about Sikhi being nothing but militant Hinduism. Guru Tegh Bahadur called himself Hindu in order to show empathy with the oppressed. Did you know that it was Guru Nanak Dev Ji who gave Babur sovereignty in India? Does this mean that Guru Nanak Dev JI was a Muslim?

If I said Sikhi is "nothing but" militant Hinduism, then how come I said Sikhi is boat of mukti for the world in kalyug also? Obviously something can't be boat of mukti for the whole world if it is ONLY militant Hinduism. A distinction needs to be intelligently made between a spiritual philosophy which is creating SANTS and a military philosophy which is creating SIPAHIS. As Sikhi is BOTH, it could not be "nothing but" only one thing.

He called Himself a Hindu only to show empathy. Okay. At least you admit that he did so.

Guru Nanak gave sovereignty to Babur>? Well, in the aspect that Satguru Maharaaj Nanak Dev Ji is Guru GOD, everything is His Divine Lila and incomprehensible to human beings. But in the aspect of Guru Nanak Dev Ji not being a sovereign Himself during role on earth, by what authority did this transferrence of dominion to Babur take place? Is there some documentation you can provide which shows Guru Nanak Dev Ji representing Hindustan gives full authority and dominion over to Babur making him an invited guest to rape, pillage and murder Hindustan in the process of securing Mughal rule? Facts please! Did you get this from reading Baburvaani which condemns Babur as a butcher?

How can Guru Nanak Dev Ji's alleged betrayal of Hindustan and collusion with foreign national enemies by handing over the state to Babur make Him a Muslim? A Muslim is he who submits to the only truth that the Koran is the only revealed Word of Allah and Final testament and that Mohammed is His final propeht and messenger.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji said this? Where please, it's not in Gurbani.

But you are right, as Guru God Satguru Maharaaj has power to do anything and everything happens according to His Divine Will, even bad things. Even the design of creation was to include the Kalyuga. And according to Gurbani Babur represents the corrupted brutality and evil of the kalyuga. So in no way are Guru vaak "honoring" or "rewarding" Babur for those deeds.

Buddhists call themselves Hindus, do they? Honestly, your views are entirely idiotic. I can't even begin to argue with someone who is so brainwashed. Most Buddhists do not call themselves Hindus, most Buddhists do not give any validity to the Vedas, most Buddhists do not worship any Hindu devi or devata, most Buddhists deny the existentce of the atman.

Buddhism in fact is classified as a Dharmic religion and part of Sanatana Dharma.

I have done quite a bit of Abidharma study. They believe in Shunyata which is actually Advaitic and Tantric teaching. The Shunyata (emptiness) is not an absolute emptiness. It's the unions of emptiness and Light. So the emptiness which is the true nature of the atma is Light, after all. What becomes empty are all the personal descriptors, the aggregates of ideas about self, the corrupted kaleshas and wounded tendencies, the evil inclinations which block out the light which is the essential core. Buddhists worship buddhas which oftentimes overlap with Hindu devatay, such as Kaal Bhairava and Tara.

You should tell all this to the Dalai Lama as He is in fact Himself one of the founding leaders of Vishwa Hindu Parishad.

Both Hindu and Tibetan Buddhist representations of Kaal Bhairav

Tara is central Bodhisatva of Buddhist iconography as well as the second of the Das Mahavidyas of Devi.

And yes, you can say "oh but that is still Sanatan Dharam" because Sanatan Dharam seems to consist of every single belief that you can think of, but let's not pretend that the expression is not used by Hindus today to refer to Hindumat.

Sanatana Dharma is that eternal religion which comes from eternal Sruti Truths and not man-made corruptions. Hindu Mat includes and has reverence for Sruti Truths just like Gurbani does, although it is a plurality of religions and sectarian distinctions not all of which agree. Those aspects of Hindu Mat, like Smritis which are not Sruti texts are subordinate and always considered in error is there is contradiction with Sruti. Those aspects of external show of piety or rituals are part of age-old culture but not Sruti.

We have to have the ability to distinguish the eternal Truths from Man-made interpretations. Of course the human element will err. But from simple logic, the CULTURAL and ETHNIC aspect of Sikhi belongs to Hindu heritage. The eternal Shabda Truths of Sikhi absolutely do not contradict Sruti but come from it. For example we can debate Shankara but we can't debate Dharma. Dharma is universal, but Shankara's teachings are not.

Yep, why don't you blame the Sikhs for everything like the good little Hindu lapdog that you are.

Well I suppose it's better than some of your previous comments. You need to lay off those evil anti-Hindu onions though. Who am I blaming? That goes for everybody and Sikhs have been largely the victims. But if we nurture only grievances it will give birth ony to rage and violence. Why not look for relationship and build bridges? What's to gain by hostility to the noblest and highest spiritual philosophies and dragging down always to level of worst corruptions? Is that all you can see?

[HarjasDevi]

Gurubrahma Guruvishnu Gururdevo Maheshwaraha |

Guruhu sakshaat Parambrahman tasmai Shrigurave namaha ||

The Guru is Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh/Shiva, I bow to the Guru who is Parabrahm manifest.

~Skanda Purana

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥

gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||

The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

~SGGS Ji ang 2

What's wrong with the comparison? The God in nirgun aspect manifests the created sansaar through sargun agency of devatay. Doesn't Gurbani say Brahma created? Yet we know it was AKAAL. So AKAAL uses the agency of Brahma as He uses agency of Krishna as He uses agency of Das Avtaray to bring Justice and right Dharma when tumbling down. You say no Sikh Sampraday shares this definition. I'm baffled. We bow to Guru Ji...because Guru Ji is the Almighty manifest. He's sargun so we can perceive the manifestation of Guru God. The Guru God is All-Pervading and there is nowhere He is not. We bow down to the greatness of God. We should worship even single blade of grass. Not the transient form of grass/gunas but the Divine Shakti aliveness which is Divine Light Presence of God shining through it.

I agree there are relations of sikh spirituality with Hindu's as they have many philosophies.but the conflict between Hindu's and sikhs are political and not spiritual.At the end of day a sikh support his/her cause and Hindu support his/her cause.so how are they same?Christian jews and islam share same philosophies but still they all are different

I never said their were no differences or that Sikhs are not own Panth. I said Sikhs are Hindus (originally Hindustanis, from continent and sharing ethnic heritage and ancient wisdom philosophies) and part of Sanatana Dharma which is Indic religions based on Sruti.

IN this context, as Jains, and Buddhists are also in this same category, and Sikhs are far closer to Hindu Mat than either of those,

by what LOGIC Sikhs are NOT part of Hindu?

I'm trying to emphasize brotherhood and historical/philosophical relationship so all these terrible wounds will heal. Seriously have we gotten to the point of Singhs making videos that justify gunning down an unarmed old man over a tilak? this is craziness. Actually we are becoming equal to the worst by ostracizing and propagating only stereotypes and scapegoats. And this will only lead to violence. What will happen to brotherhood of mankind when you despise your own blood relation more than anybody?

We are different! We are different! We are different!

In what ways? Have Sikhs become so much more holy that world conscience is pricked by sight of swaggering punks wearing Bhindranwale t-shirts and calling every other as "bimbos," "pakhandis" and "rat worshippers?"

These are not Guru Ka Sikh. I assure you.

Turiya state sees all as one and no distinctions. Do you think Guru Ji meant to say, "I am not a Muslim I am not a Hindu because I am a Sikh instead? Guru is not a shishya. And the world doesn't need another "religion." It needs an authentically spiritual PATH to God, to ONENESS. When we start to live that authentically spiritual Dharm, then we are truly above the world and it's distinctions and endless separations and hatreds. As long as Sikh community is repressing and denying Hindu heritage it creates a negative unconscious demon in the mind to hate. Really the true spiritual path is about relationship not separation. We are ONE even with a blade of grass. Even our DNA is 99% united with every other living being. But you won't even see relationship with Hindu.

"He drew a circle that shut me out

Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout

But love and I had the wit to win;

We drew a circle that took him in."

~Edwin Markham

I would touch the feet of Sant Mahapurah Nirmalay Mahant Ram Singh Ji who, with so much peacefulness and loving calm, seemlessly walks among Hindu sadhus in brotherhood totally undisturbed by the fires of hate that divide us as communities. Authentic sant mahapurash don't harbor hate or resentments to fester like cancers. The saints of all religions, if they were to meet would love each other. Because LOVE is the nature of God and the true spiritual message. What amazing words of tenderness and piare Guruji spoke even to Aurangzeb after the murders of his own family in Zafernama. I tell you, we don't understand the amazing Light of God's True nature to dare call ourselves disciples of it. World is hurting! World is crying! World needs Khalsas who make a difference. Evil did not begin and end with Sikh genocide. Light will conquer when we become Light. Light for the whole world. That is the real meaning of Khalsa Raj. You think authentic Khalsas can't stand to be called brother of a Hindu?

The way the human mind works, because of our evil inclinations, our panj bhootas, we bring hell to earth by our actions and inactions and by the distortions we settle for. But life is a golden opportunity to wash our karmas, to heal wounds of the suffering, to be better people. We see the horror of the past. It's the story of human history. It's written in our DNA. It's written in our nightmares. It's part of our collective unconscious and past life memories. It's the blackboard on which the Light of God writes teachings of Justice in raw and painful Truth. It shows clearly the failure of our man-made systems of religion to cleanse our minds and hearts.

But we can be a better world. We can fight for everybody's Truth and Justice. Satguru Ji is teaching us how, and it's not through messages of disunity so contrary to Gurbani message.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OPXUeeFXc90

[Balbir Singh]

Ulloo ke Charkho, let Hindus claim that you have stolen their words. Wisdom is not transferred by such claims. Please do not waste precious life in proving that you are different because a Hindu gets birth through human Jooni.

[chatanga1]

Khatris and Guru Sahibaan families were traditionally the leaders of sanatan Sikh society. They lost influence and power after the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha Reform movement. Modern Sikh Rehat Maryada and Khalsa identity is closely related to Singh Sabhas which Khatris have traditionally resisted. This means something?

It means you dont know what you're talking about. Baba Banda Singh was the last khatri leader of the Panth. After Baba Ji, came Darbara Singh, Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh and so on. how many of these were khatris? the reform didnt happen till 200 years after, so how did the khatris remain the "traditional leaders"?

[chatanga1]

Sikhs have always been accepted AS A PART OF Hindu society by Hindu's themselves.

This is irrefutable.

only when it suits the hindu society. that is irrefutable also.

[chatanga1]

I already explained that Sikh means DISCIPLE SUBMITTERD TO GURU GOD and not some separate ethnic race and culture from the surrounding HIndustani one. Do you really think Sikh means turban and dhaari makes you now separate race, separate culture, waiting to have separate nation?

The SIKHS who were buffer between the Hindus and Thuraks, and accepted discipleship from both are not an ethnicity. They are and always have been SPIRITUAL PEOPLE, not own separate countrymen. Identity of "Sikh" modernly doesn't even have the association of chela of Guru Sahib. It's just degenerated into own tribal Punjabiyaat, "us" against "them."

the word sikh may have meant that, but through evolution and revolution, it has come to mean MORE than that. I dont think that any hindus would have a problem accepting that. History is witness to this. just as the words hindu, meant people of the indus, but now means those who profess the hindu religion. No mystery.

if the hindus were a buffer between both paths, doesnt that mean that sikh were equal between both hindiu and muslim paths? way before the reform movement, why did the Sikhs rule and create their own states while the sikhs were still sanatan?

Edited January 29, 2010 by chatanga1

[HarjasDevi]

It means you dont know what you're talking about. Baba Banda Singh was the last khatri leader of the Panth. After Baba Ji, came Darbara Singh, Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh and so on. how many of these were khatris? the reform didnt happen till 200 years after, so how did the khatris remain the "traditional leaders"?

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji? He was not a Khatri. He was a Rajput. The Reform AGAINST Khatri influence took place about 150 or so years later. You are forgetting the political leadership of the Sikh Quom based around the Khatri descendents of Guru's families and their scholars. And it was this element of Sikh society that attained real prominence under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The spiritual leadership of the Panth was the Akali Nihang Singhs. Akali Nihangs were the real Tat Khalsas, and traditionally they had sanatan orientation and world-view accepting devatay and avtaray in way similar to Nirmalay and Udasi sampradayas. And this can be seen in the granths they preserved FROM the newly authoritative Singh Sabhias and their iconoclastic editing and revisionist history. Nihangs for example have always done parkash of all three Granths of Guru Sahib, with Adi Grath given primacy. The modern conflict in the Panth today is hugely a backlash against the Singh Sabha revision of history, even sincere Singhs honestly believe concepts written in Shri Dasm Granth are "against Sikhi message." So thorough has been the Singh Sabhia dominance of Sikhism and alienation from traditional sanatan world-view that some Singhs today don't even recognize Guruji's own bani.

It was the Singh Sabhias who were always imitating a revisionist version of Nihang maryada. So developed people who looked like Nihangs but were utter and complete Tat Khalsas who did not understand the meaning of the Adi Chand they wore and considered jhatka meat and use of intoxicants like Sukhnidaan a bujjar kurehit, even as Nihang Jatha preserved the proper maryada for Jhatka and Sukhnidaan direct from Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

From this we get banning of granths like Gur Bilas, editings and questionable translations galore (just investigate the controversy between the Kartarpur bir and the Banno bir and the Sri Dasam Granth translation. Even Prem Sumarag was "edited" at one point by Bhai Randhir Singh removing all the sections which pertained to Jhatka), complete marginalizing and ignoring puratan sources, literally whitewashing and destroying traditional murals and art-work which had Vedantic themes devatay and avtaray, and revision of Sikh history WITHOUT the messy, loose ends of the rich Sant Mat Baba Dera tradition and Khatri Mahants.

Banda Singh

By birth a Rajput' of Rajauri in Kashmir he had changed his name of Lachhman Bala to Narain Das at the shrine of Ram Thamman near Kasur and became a Bairagi in 1686. But in 1691 he became a Jogi and an adept in occult science' with the name of Madho Das. Meeting the Guru, probably at Naded, 'he was given the title of Bahadur, with that of Banda which he had earned by his ,submission to the Guru', together with five arrows and other weapons. He became a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh by receiving Khanday Kee Pahul. This fact is confirmed by the oldest sources including Tavarikh-Iradat Khan (1714) and Panj Sau Sakhi (1734). Bandai Sikhs

Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was a Rajput Hindu his whole life before becoming the Guru's Sikh. Historically the Khatris had an influential leadership role as Guru's families and Sanskrit scholars and Vedantic educated Mahants were in control of the state religious institutions, not DamDami Taksal Sahib. Of course, if goes without saying that during Sikh Misl days Jatts were the key Generals. But, one aspect of Sikh history which is so often overlooked that it's not even recognizeable is those Mahants who were custodians of Gurdwaras tended to be from Guru's own familes and inner circle of pandits. They didn't just come out of nowhere or from Hindus taking adbvantage of Sikhs while they were fighting jangs. This is why the earliest purataan writings include such a definite sanatan ideological compinent. They ARE Vedantic in world-view, but that is not coming from corruptions with Hindus but from within Guru's own families and Court. And that is why during reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh you have an unquestionably Khatri leadership presence. Yes, of course Maharaja Ranjit Singh was Jati and most Generals were Jatts but the point is you are ignoring that the Vedantic educated Khatris from Guru's own families were in leadership regarding the purataan influence over Gurdwaras and writings.

Obviously the Sikh society was not caste based. And so there was fluidity of positions and influence based on merit which made it truly great and unprecedented Kingdom. But there is a strong tribal influence in the history. One thing Tat Khalsa Reform has effectively done is sweep the Khatri influence under the carpet. Not out of caste tensions, but out of rejection for the sanatan Vedantic world-view. A prime example of this is that Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was elevated to the 11th Guru by his men, who were called the Bandais. This was rejected by the Panth and the Bandais got absorbed back into the general Panth with a small sect remaining one of the earliest sectarian offshoots.

From time to time attempts were made to restore the Sikh theocracy, under representatives of the sacred Khatri families. For instance in 1800 Sahib Singh Bedi, a descendant of Ba'ba Nanak, 'pretended to religious inspiration.' Collected a large force, invested Ludhiana, took Malerkotla and 'called on George Thomas to obey him as the true representative of the Sikh prophet. But the time had gone by for militant religious leaders and the Bedi soon retired north of the Satluj.

1. This is very uncertain, as indeed is the whole question of Banda's relations with Guru Gobind Singh: see Khazan Singh (pages 198-200). There seems some reason to believe that he had been active before the death of Guru Gobind Singh and possibly it was that Guru's death, which caused the leaderless Sikhs to flock to his standard.

BANDAI, name given to the followers of the Sikh hero, Banda Singh Bahadur (16701716), who regarded him not only as a military leader but also as Guru next to Guru Gobind Singh in spiritual succession. They were opposed and ultimately expelled in 1721 by the mainstream of the Sikhs, the Tatt Khalsa. A small number ofBandai Sikhs still survive. They reverence the Guru Granfh Sahib as their Scripture and most of them also undergo the Khalsa initiatory rites, but Banda Singh Bahadur is for them their eleventh Guru against the common Sikh belief of the spiritual line having ended with Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth Master. Bandai Sikhs

So the roots of the sanatan Dera Baba offshoot tendancy within the Sikhi history goes back to very early times, with the first being Baba Shri Chand. In this article the writer uses Tat Khalsa to describe the Sikhs who opposed the Bandais, but this is not the political movement of Tat Khalsas which originiated in late 1800's as a reaction to overthrow the power and influence of the Khatri families and the Mahants and expunge Sanatan Vedantic heritage from Sikhism.

A minority of the Khatris are Sikh. The Sikh panth is not caste based, still the Khatris played a major role in development of Sikhism as a gentle and inclusive faith. All the Ten Sikh Gurus were Khatri. During the lifetime of the Gurus, most of their major supporters and Sikhs were Khatris. After formation of the Khalsa (1699), and especially during the reign of Ranjit Singh, Hindu Khatri families raised at least one son (usually the oldest) as an Amritdhari Sikh. The Sikh institutions till the early 20th century were led by Mahants (Masands) who were generally Khatri. Widespread abuses by the Masands, such as the introduction of idols in Gurudwaras, led to calls for reform (which were met more than once by deadly resistance from the Mahants) by the Singh Sabha which resulted in formation of the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabhandak Committee to oversee Sikh Gurudwaras.

Among the Khatris the Khukrain or Kukhran were one of the foremost followers of the Sikh Gurus and traditionally brought up one son as a Keshdhari Sikh. This is evident from the large number of Kukhran surnames among Khatri Sikhs. A predominant section of the Hindu Khukrain continue to follow dual religious traditions of both Sikh as well as Arya Samaj mores. This has continued in spite of the religo-political competitive zeal of both the Arya Samaj and the Tat Khalsa effort at creating purified separate identities. Intermarriage between Khatri as well as Khukrain Sikhs and Hindus are common. The dual religious Hindu and Sikh identity and Kukhran biradri identity comfortably coexists. Khatri

Now the article is biased from the Tat Khalsa view, claiming the masands had been corrupted Sikhi practice and tradition, evidence being "idols." However, this account doesn't explain why "murthis" were known to be installed in Gurdwaras all throughout the time period of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and no one objected. Murthi-like Gul-Sahsars held by prominent Misl leaders as spoken of in purataan granth Prem Sumarag and seen in rare photos, but the tradition and memory of it has been erased. No one objected to the murals in Gurdwaras of Vedantic imagery, devatay and avtaray...

until the destruction of the empire of Maharaja Ranjit Singh...

and the British agitations against the growing popularity of the Arya Samaj in counteracting the Christian missionaries and uniting Indian National pride. THEN, you had a Sanatan Singh Sabha quickly overthrown and replaced by a TAT KHALSA SINGH SABHA which has been the iconoclastic intolerant voice of True Sikhism ever since, with help from British money and power. And you saw the complete erosion of Khatri influence and the ascension of Jatt footprint in Singh Sabha institutions and Jathas such as Akal Takhat Sahib, SGPC, and DDT-AKJ. Now this is history, not opinion. But the Akal Takhat did not even exist as a power base until the rise of the Singh Sabhas. When Maharaja Ranjit Singh was disciplined, it was not by Akal Takhat panj pirare, but by Nihang jathedar Akali Phulla Singh Ji. So with the rise of the Singh Sabhias you saw a huge shift in power, most notably the fifth Takht being removed from traditional Nihang authority to DamDami Taksal, yes, established as a Sikh missionary Tat Khalsa institution and amended to the heritage of the traditional one.

The Damdami Taksal was established by Guru Gobind Singh^{[7][8][9][10]} and later headed by Baba Deep Singh.^[11] In 1706, when Guru Gobind Singh was encamped at Sabo Ki Talwandi, he is said to have "founded a distinguished school of exegesis".^[12] When Guru Gobind Singh passed away, Baba Deep Singh is said to have kept his instruction alive by running the Damdami Taksal.^[13]

Leadership

Under Sunder Singh (1883 to 1930), the Taksal seems to have come to the forefront.^[14] Sunder Singh set about purging diversity in Sikh doctrine, ritual and practice, hoping to have a uniform Sikh community. Part of this strategy was to have a standardised code of conduct(Rahit).^[15]. DamDami Taksal

Singh Sabha Tat Khalsas appended the traditional institution of DamDami Taksal into a Tat Khalsa missionary ideological center and became alienated in large measure from the purataan sanatan past while ascending to Sikh political power and influence, i.e., becoing the Fifth Takht in 1966. Takhat DamDama Sahib

The religious influence of the family was very great throughout the region of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and many of the Sodhis of Guru Har Sahai were employed at the court of Lahore and they accompanied the army on expeditions along the frontier, when it was necessary to keep up the enthusiasm of the men at a high pitch. Inn making these journeys, they seized the opportunity of bringing the followers under their own religious banner from among the scattered Hindu family of the western Punjab. And up to the historic Partition of the country in 1947, continued to be revered by a large numbers of the Sikhs, not only in their immediate neighborhood but also in Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Kohat and the Derajat. On the death of Guru Gulab Singh in 1869, only two-thirds of the Jagir was continued to his successor, Fateh Singh on a life-tenure. It was unfortunate that he became involved in quarrels with his own son, and in his time much of the old influence of the family melted away. PothiMalaGuruHarSahai

I do not deny Sikhs are own separate community. That is obvious. What I disbelieve is that Sikhs are denying own RELATIONSHIP to Hindu Dharm. Guruji may be a jewel among fruit trees, but Sikhs are still in the family of trees. Sanatana Dharma is the family of Dharmic trees. Hindu Dharm, Buddhi Dharm, Jain Dharm, Sikh Dharm are all Dharmic Trees. I don't get what the problem is other than breaking down into basic political greivances and hatreds between communities. I don't see how this has the authority to negate the clear relationships other than it plays into the same Tat Khalsa bugaboo of revising and whitewashing all the sanatan associations and linkages. Even as Jews, Christians and Muslims may have political grievances and hate each other, nobody is denying the clear relationship between them. They are clearly related but TOTALLLY DIFFERENT IDENTITY AS WELL. To be part of Sanatana Dharma and related to Hindu Dharm doesn't take anything awya from Sikhi it GIVES IT a richer heritage which is more ancient and in line with all the Puranic stories shared with us in Gurbani. Thus is is GURMAT. But even word Gurmat got hijacked to mean that which rejects bipraan tradition translated to mean ALL Hindu Mat, including correction and reforms of bipraan abuses such as Bhakti Reform Movement of the bhagats whose bani is part of Gurbani.

My point in this post was not to provoke hostility. I posted in the Hindu section because I wanted to share some Sanatan writings and show how they parallel with Sikhi teaching without degenerating into a debate about correctness of Singh Sabha views. This thread was moved from there and hence became a controversial provocation of Singh Sabhia viewpoints notoriously incapable of TOLERATING THE VALIDITY OF ANY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF SIKHISM, EVEN REJECTING AND DENYING THE SANATAAN HERITAGE.

[laalsingh]

From this we get banning of granths like Gur Bilas, editings and questionable translations galore (just investigate the controversy between the Kartarpur bir and the Banno bir and the Sri Dasam Granth translation. Even Prem Sumarag was "edited" at one point by Bhai Randhir Singh removing all the sections which pertained to Jhatka), complete marginalizing and ignoring puratan sources, literally whitewashing and destroying traditional murals and art-work which had Vedantic themes devatay and avtaray, and revision of Sikh history WITHOUT the messy, loose ends of the rich Sant Mat Baba Dera tradition and Khatri Mahants.

Guru Teg Bahadur was not allowed to enter Golden Temple by Sodhis. Does being immediate family of Gurus hold any merit in Sikhism? Dhirmallias, Ramrais, Miinas etc.

What did you find in your investigation of controversy between Kartarpuri Bir and Banno Bir? You call it Boat of Mukti and still in doubt? You refused to take any viakhiya as authentic, now having doubts about Guru Granth too? Please enlighten us.

[laalsingh]

The modern conflict in the Panth today is hugely a backlash against the Singh Sabha revision of history, even sincere Singhs honestly believe concepts written in Shri Dasm Granth are "against Sikhi message." So thorough has been the Singh Sabhia dominance of Sikhism and alienation from traditional sanatan world-view that some Singhs today don't even recognize Guruji's own bani.

Very smart. Now bring in Dasam Granth.

[HarjasDevi]

Guru Teg Bahadur was not allowed to enter Golden Temple by Sodhis. Doesbeing immediate family of Gurus hold any merit in Sikhism? Dhirmallias,Ramrais, Miinas etc.

Family of Guru's does not hold Gurgaddhi thought there have been several historical attempts to gain that influence. My point was to present a broad overview of history for the Singh who thought Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was a Khatri, and a little intro into the change between the Sikhi under Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Sikhi of today. I'm not for or against simply to present factual history. I'm not a supporter of any claimant of Guru's families. But I don't believe we can overlook their influence during purataan times as various sants and dera Gurus have come from them and reflects a distinct tradition within Sikhi Panth which was never before violently oppressed. And since they are stuck in time as concerning family traditions and beliefs and artifacts, we get a sanataan view of a distantly past variation of Sikhi than modernly known.

It was only with the Gurbilas and some of the Rahat Namas, heavily infiltrated by Brahamins, that infiltration starts in late 18th century. Koer Singh (1751), Kesar Singh Chhibber (1769) and Bhai Sukha Singh, and Bhai Santokh Singh (1844) contributed heterodox elements with whose writings about the goddess, the Tat Khalsa would violently disagree. Even Fenech justifies Bhai Vir Singh's editing of Rattan Singh Bhangu's manuscript about the "infamous incidents regarding Guru Gobind Singh's veneration of the Goddess Chandi". For Bhai Vir Singh, the Khalsa identity is paramount and is inherent to the theme of Sikh martyrdom. MCLEOD AND FENECH AS SCHOLARS ON SIKHISM AND MARTYRDOM

What did you find in your investigation of controversy between Kartarpuri Bir and Banno Bir? You call it Boat of Mukti and still indoubt? You refused to take any viakhiya as authentic, now having doubtsabout Guru Granth too? Please enlighten us.

Guru's bani contains the Shabd mantra empower by Satguru, and the teachings of the NAAM. I have no doubt about this. But this doesn't mean mischievous translations have been made by politically motivated Singh Sabhias who may have preferred to whitewash the Vedantic concepts and translate them along more acceptable lines. I have simply mentioned the FACT there is a controversy, and it surrounds the Singh Sabhias. I happen to believe that Gurmat rests on ETERNAL TRUTHS and can never be shaken by the weaknesses of men. But those eternal Truths can be misunderstood.

It is a critical article of faith for the Singh Sabhia version of religion that the corpus of Gurbani is completely free of doubt and that the matter has been settled. There is possibility of editing on part of Singh Sabha scholars that the versions and translations presented today are view from a biased viewpoint.

An unauthorized edition of the Guru Granth Sahib known as the Banno Bir also exists. Guru Arjun Dev gave this copy of the Granth Sahib to Bhai Banno one of his disciples to take to Lahore for binding. Bhai Banno kept this volume and wrote in some verses of Sudras and Mirabai which it is believed had been rejected by the Guru as well as a few hymns allegedly to be by Guru Nanak at the end of his Granth. Guru Arjun Dev did not approve the Banno Bir. This copy is still in the possession of the descendants of Bhai Banno. Essentials of Sikhism

But is the official version of events really so neat and secure? Bhai Banno himself wrote in those verses. Problem solved! If it was this easy, why would it even be a controversy? The controversy is real all right, and the solution isn't so "tidy."

It is a settled and accepted tradition that the Fifth Guru compiled the Aad Granth with Bhai Gurdas as the scribe; and that the original Aad Granth is present with the Sodhis at Kartarpur. After the study of this Bir by Dr Jodh Singh and the publication of his book, Kartarpuri Bir De Darshan, it was considered that the authenticity of the Bir had been firmly established; but some oblique and incorrect observations by McLeod tended to throw doubt on its authenticity. It was, therefore, considered necessary to make a detailed study of the issue after a close examination of the Bir at Kartarpur. Authenticity of the Kartarpuri Bir

Hmmm, could it be we really don't KNOW why there is a discrepancy of the bani in different birs? But the fact remains, there is a discrepancy.

Examination of Criticism by McLeod

Before we deal with the criticism of McLeod, let us record the present position and academic findings about the Banno Bir. This Bir is at present with the successors of Bhai Banno at Kanpur. It has been carefully seen by Bhai Mahan Singh, who examined the Kartarpuri Bir as well as a team of scholars from the Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar, Prof. Pritam Singh, who has written a paper on the subject, and Principal Harbhajan Singh of Sikh Missionary College, Amritsar. All of them have concluded that this Bir was recorded in Samat 1699 (thirty eight years after the preparation of the Bir by the Fifth Guru) and this is the year written in the Bir itself. Secondly, in this Bir the controversial shabad, "Ranjhunara gao Sakhi", is clearly a later interpolation because it is written in very small letters in a different shade of ink from the original writing of the Bir. These two conclusions about the Banno Bir are academically accepted and are not in doubt.

We now record the criticism by McLeod. He writes:

"First, there is the universal agreement that the important differences distinguishing the Kartarpur manuscript from the Banno version consist exclusively of material included in the latter which is not to be found in the former. Secondly, there is the testimony of those who have inspected the Kartarpuri manuscript concerning the obliteration of portions of its text."

The Pure and undisputed original bir which all the leading Panthic Authorities accept as original... has obliterated portions. I find that creates a point of doubt. Now, a judgment can't be made on the basis of it, it could be true as the Scholars have explained the sampadan kala editing may be completely innocuous and have been the standard method of editing during Guru Sahibaan times. The explanation given by SGPC is that it is a rough draft and a work in progress. And perhaps that IS the case. But, during a time of Singh Sabha revisionism, the existence of any editing of the original corpus does raise at least some doubt. Particularly when the version of the bir doesn't match up with the other birs. the fact remains despite the scholarship, and it is brilliant, I've read a number of criticisms of Hew Mcleod and Dr. Pashaura Singh's work. A nagging question, for me, still remains. Because no matter how anyone explains it, the bir is still obviously edited, whether by Bhai Gurdas Ji, or by Dhirmal and family, or by brahmin mahants or by Singh Sabhas later. No one really knows.

I make no accusations whatsoever to simply state that there exists a controversy. That much is documented fact.

It was due to such ridiculous and wrong interpretations of Bani by using unauthentic sources; Dr. Pashaura Singh's Ph.D. thesis caused a strong reaction from Sikh researchers and intellectuals all over the world because of the poor quality of research and misrepresentation of the Sikh history & Sikh Scripture merely on conjectural basis and unauthentic documents. Sri Akal Takhat, the highest Sikh religious and temporal authority at Amritsar also took notice of this based on the report of Sikh Academia. They called Dr. Pashaura Singh to explain the blasphemous statements in his thesis and gave him a list of academic charges in writing. He presented himself before the five high priests and apologized for the wrongdoings he had done. He admitted the wrongdoings in his Research in written& accepted the Punishment. He was Indicted & Declared Tankhaiya (guilty) by Akal Takhat at Amritsar India for his blasphemous writing against the Sikh religion--the 5th largest among the world religions. Pashaura Singh

His crime? He dared to have an opinion against the prevailing view and write a research paper on it. The solution? To completely invalidate him as an uneducated idiot and an ignorant with no right to an opinion (sound familiar). It's quite an interesting that opposing views are not tolerated. And none dare question without punishing censorship, personal attack and ruin to follow as a consequence.

It's reminds me of the Shakespearean phrase, "Methinks he doth protest too much." It makes me wonder if the briliant scholarly answers themselves are not enough. Surely the eternal Truth isn't afraid of questions and will not wither under analysis. It doesn't need protests and morchas, bully and assasination goondas to hold it together. But that's just my opinion. Right or wrong, the controversy remains. It's perhaps not terribly significant as I read Gurbani and find a remarkable message of solace and beauty. What concerns me is perhaps the overreaction of the Panth to perceived threats and response to blackball and ruin people who challenge the prevailing Panthic opinions. And THAT to me is the real controversy.

Other Important Factors: (a) The originality of the Kartarpuri Bir is also established by the Nishan or mark of the Fifth Guru. This mark, in those days meant, according to the accepted practice and tradition, the writing of the Mul Mantra of the Japuji in the hand of the Guru, the Fifth Guru in this case. This Nishan appears on page 29/1 of the Bir. As a mark of adoration, the page has been profusely decorated. The presence of the Nishan of the Fifth Guru is also noted in the Tatkara. Authenticity of Kartarpuri Bir

Whenever a Nisan of the Sikh Gurus is affixed to a copy of the Sikh scripture, it bestowed some sort of authority on it. We often find reference that such and such copy of the Adi Granth has preserved Nisan of one or another Sikh Guru. In the absence of a colophon or especially undated manuscript, presence of Nisan helps to place it in abroad period corresponding to the pontificate of the respective Guru whose Nisan it bears. However one should be aware that some unscrupulous persons have fabricated the Nisan's attributed to the Gurus to mislead the faithful, which in turn may have found their entry into the manuscripts of the Adi Granth. Thus, before taking into account the Nisan, one has to ensure whether it is genuine or not. After establishing it's veracity beyond any doubt, one has to examine further whether the Nisan is originally a part of the manuscript or has been pasted on it. If it is pasted then it is not of much significance to ascertain the period of the manuscript, rather it puts a big question mark on its anteriority. It may have been pasted for the simple reason to preserve it or for ulterior motives by a manuscript dealer, obviously to enhance the antique value of the manuscript concerned, as is the case with MS # 1245. Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition: Myth And Reality

The Kartarpuri Bir; The custodians of this Bir claim it to be the original "Adi Granth"prepared by Bhai Gurdas under the direct supervision and guidance of Guru Arjan. Being a private property, it is not open to all for inspection. Only a few chosen persons have had access to it... Persons, who examined this Bir;

1. Harnam Das Udasin's book came out in 1969 and 1972 claiming that this Bir is not the original Bir prepared by Bhai Gurdas under the supervision of Guru Arjan. It is a defective version of Bhai Banno's version. He doubts the veracity of Guru's autograph and it contains thousand of errors. He says that thisand the Damdami original Birs are not available.

2. Taran Taran Gianis - Ishar Singh, Narain Singh, and Lachman Singh examined this Bir in 1924.

3. Bhai Manna Singh reports 200 text-variants of this Bir.

4. Sant Gurbachan Singh Khalsa.

5. S. Randhir Singh late research scholar of SGPC.

6. Daljit Singh's work is supportive of Bhai Jodh Singh's views.

7. Dr.Mcleod mentions that two other Englishmen with Bhai Jodh Singh examined Bir named Dr. J.C.Archer and Dr.C.H.Loehlin.

Bhai Jodh Singh's findings;

1. The Granth has a new margin affixed to it on all four sides and mended at many places.

2. Folio numbers appear on the left side.

3. Folio numbers appearing in the table of contents often differ from those in the text.

4. The Bir has large numbers of blank pages in between the inscribed ones.

5.All the folio-pages that are blank or inscribed have foil numbers,indicating that numbering was done before the hymns were inscribed.

6. Just below certain sub-headings of Raag Asa or Gauri are hanging figures peculiar to this copy. 7. Bir has three Tatkaras: Suchi-patra, Sabd-tatkara and Tatkara-tatkara. This shows where respective ragas figure in the Sabd-tatkara.

8. The suchi-patra lists the presence of two autographs in the Bir, one by fifth Guru and the other by 6th Guru.

9. The Bir has few extra-canonical documents pasted on it, a recipe for converting mercury in to ash (kushta, bhasam) to make it serve as panacea for several diseases.

10. There are numerous discrepancies in the listing of hymns in the tatkaras and their corresponding texts in the Bir.

11. At the close of certain vars the word sudh or sudh keechai appears as proper.

12. The vars have tunes (dhunies) indicated on them.

13. The Birabounds in numerous cuttings, deletions, additions, and corrections.Corrections at certain places have been made by erasing the previousmatter with hartal, the yellow paste, where as many deletions have been effected by penning through the unwanted text.

14. It has only Raag Mala at the end. No other apocryphal matter mentioned in the contents page is available.

15. Five to six hands can be discerned at work in the Bir. These have to be accounted for since it is claimed to be solely written by Bhai Gurdas. AAD SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB ABSTRACT

Everyone has opinions. But it will be a long time in a religiously hostile environment to ever have a professionally critical evaluation of the doubts and controversies without inviting baiting, personal slanders and hostility to silence any doubts or questions. What people don't realize is such tendencies don't clarify doubts to anyone, they magnify them. People begin to wonder what alterations might be hiding behind the hysterical overreaction.

Just an opinion. Nothing more. I have no proof of anything. And at this point in time, the scholarship supporting the Kartarpur Bir is the best. But for myself, because of the aggressive Singh Sabha reactions, my doubt remains that something may be wrong somewhere. And not only for spurious bani like Mira Bai found in the Banno recension, but missing from the Kartarpur Bir. I am inclined to side with the prevailing Udasi opinion on which Mcleod and Pashaura Singh's thesis was based: that the Kartarpur Bir is not the original.

"1. Harnam Das Udasin's book came out in 1969 and 1972 claiming that this Bir is not the original Birprepared by Bhai Gurdas under the supervision of Guru Arjan. It is adefective version of Bhai Banno's version. He doubts the veracity ofGuru's autograph and it contains thousand of errors. He says that thisand the Damdami original Birs are not available."

[dalsingh101]

There you go with your mammoth posts Harjas!!

Restrain yourself and keep them concise and punchy sister!

You've had enough time to learn this by now! Come on! lol

Edited January 30, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji? He was not a Khatri. He was a Rajput. The Reform AGAINST Khatri influence took place about 150 or so years later. You are forgetting the political leadership of the Sikh Quom based around the Khatri descendents of Guru's families and their scholars. And it was this element of Sikh society that attained real prominence under Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

and which varn do rajputs belong to? Rajputs are a part of the khatri varn just as sodhis and bedis are, so Baba Banda Singh Ji is a Rajput of Khatri varn. whats the mystery?

can you name any sikh khatri political leaders in the era that you are refering to?

what prominence did M. Ranjit Singh give the Guru's descendants ?

Edited January 30, 2010 by chatanga1

[kdsingh80]

I never said their were no differences or that Sikhs are not own Panth. I said Sikhs are Hindus (originally Hindustanis, from continent and sharing ethnic heritage and ancient wisdom philosophies) and part of Sanatana Dharma which is Indic religions based on Sruti.

It all depend how u interpret word Hindu .If you believe that people living in Hindustan are hindu then its ok but if you are pointing to Religion Hindu then sikhs are not part of it.

IN this context, as Jains, and Buddhists are also in this same category, and Sikhs are far closer to Hindu Mat than either of those,

Both Budhism and jainism are nearly extinct or got assimilated in Hinduism.Sikhs are afraid that they will meet the same fate.

Seriously have we gotten to the point of Singhs making videos that justify gunning down an unarmed old man over a tilak? this is craziness. Actually we are becoming equal to the worst by ostracizing and propagating only stereotypes and scapegoats. And this will only lead to violence.In what ways? Have Sikhs become so much more holy that world conscience is pricked by sight of swaggering punks wearing Bhindranwale t-shirts and calling every other as "bimbos," "pakhandis" and "rat worshippers?"

Every religion has its fare share of fanatic morons

Hindu's too have lot of them.Many justify attacks on churches,killing of christians and muslims.Also don't forget that many hindu's make fun of sikh appearance

crack 12 0 clock jokes what about them? so please don't give example of these type of people all religions have people who have hatred for other religion.

Even our DNA is 99% united with every other living being. But you won't even see relationship with Hindu.

I already said that sikhism has some spirtual relationship with Hinduism.but our diffrence with them is political.You very know that a religion has 2 elements miri(political) and(piri).Let me ask you a simple question Sikhs demanded a status of holy city for Amritsar but still it is not given.Do you think that this demand is not justified?

-- --------------------------------------------------

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-history-timeline/today-in-sikh-history-9th-december.html

979 The Dal Khalsa in its first annual conference at Gurdaspur passed a resolution demanding the declaring of Amritsar as a "Holy City." The Youth (Dal Khalsa and the Sikh Students Federation) had long since been demanding the declaration that Amritsar was a Holy City. The SGPC chief, G. S. Tohra,' had met the Indian Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi, on September 24, 1980, and had asked her to make a declaration to that effect. When more than six months had passed and there was no movement in that case, the Sikh Youth decided to organise a procession to press the Sikh demand. A joint meeting of the Dal Khalsa and the Sikh Students decided to take out such a procession on May 31, 1981.

The Hindus opposed the Sikh demand asking for the declaration of Amritsar as a "Holy City." Simply to oppose the Sikh demand, the Hindus took out a procession at Amritsar on May 29, 1981. Ten thousand armed unruly Hindus raised abusive slogans against the Sikhs and Sikh symbols. One of the Hindu slogans asked the Sikhs to "get out of India: as India belonged to the Hindus." Besides provoking, insulting and vulgar slogan raising, the Hindu processionists attacked some of the Sikh buildings and wounded a large number of Sikh passersby.

---------------------------------------------------

-Ref. THE SIKHS' STRUGGLE FOR SOVEREIGNTY, An Historical Perspective By Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer and Dr. Awatar Singh Sekhon Edited By: A.T. Kerr Page 110-119

Now tell me if we are part of large Hindu society then why Hindu's opposed demand for holy city for Amritsar.

Hindu'a have already banned consumption,import,export of beef because it hurt their sentiment.but tobacco is sold and freely consumed .Is it not their duty to care about sentiments of sikhs?

I just want to conclude my post that you can construct 100s of theories showing similarities between hinduism and sikhism but what matter to a common people is what is happening in practical world.we Sikhs say that we are not Hindu's because we want to protect our own political identity.As long as this identity is presereved sikhism will stay alive O/W sikhism will meet the same fate that jainism and budhism met in India

Edited January 30, 2010 by kdsingh80

[dalsingh101]

As long as this identity is presereved sikhism will stay alive O/W sikhism will meet the same fate that jainism and budhism met in India

I think this is spot on. I would also add that the diasporic community plays/will play a significant role in protecting Sikhism, but events in the heartland will have an impact outside of India.

Regarding the relationship between Sikhi and Hinduism, I think the anology of an overbearing, control freak mother who denies and subverts offspring's independent desires and aspirations is a good one.

Yes we share 'cultural soil' with Hinduism but the same could be said of Panjabi Sufism. But I don't see sufis taking an unhealthy interferring interest in Sikhi.

It has been said before that Islam and Christianity share much with Judaic culture, but no one in their right mind would consider them branches of Judaism. They are a separate entity now, despite much common ground. The same applies to Sikhi visa vis what is now termed Hinduism. Hindu interest in Sikhi is purely political. That 'Hinduism' is attempting to wrap itself around Sikhi and absorb it within itself is undeniable. Only time will tell how successful Sikh attempts to resist this will be. If Sikhs retain any of their historical spirit that enabled them to survive centuries of attacks, one thing is certain and that is that some Sikhs will face any challenges vehemently. If they ever stop doing this, then they will have become Hindus.

Edited January 30, 2010 by dalsingh101

[HarjasDevi]

and which varn do rajputs belong to? Rajputs are a part of the khatri varn just as sodhis and bedis are, so Baba Banda Singh Ji is a Rajput of Khatri varn. whats the mystery?

can you name any sikh khatri political leaders in the era that you are refering to?

what prominence did M. Ranjit Singh give the Guru's descendants ?

Are you serious? My point was that he was a HINDU his whole life and then became a Sikh and shared some history about the sanatan linkages in Sikh history. You deserve a crown for derailment king. Go eat more anti-Hindu onions and garlic. Khatris I was referring to was SIKHS from own Guru families contrasted with Rajput Hindus. Everyone complains I write too much and never stops asking the 20 million unrelated questions.

I don't care to look up names of Khatri leaders. Do you disagree the Khatri families had prominence during kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or traditional guardianship of the Gurdwaras? If you do not disagree, why are we running around the apple tree? If you do disagree, at this point, I don't even care. I'm trying to figure out a response for some Buddhist decline a thousand years ago as having any relevance to Sikh Hindu relations in belief system or association with 1984.

I say, "Sikhs philosophy is derived from Hindus."

Singhs say, "No they don't Guru Ji REJECTED everything Hindu."

I say, "No He didn't"

They say, "Yes, He did."

I say, No, He didn't."

They say, Yes, He did."

ad infinitum until everyone is dizzy.

Somehow to even discuss is grounds for paranoia about a State sponsored deliberate destruction of Sikh identity (through words which no one bothers to read) just like 1000 years ago (as if Hindu's are the world's evil villains and never mind 1000 years ago majority who are Sikhs today are descended from those very same "hateful" Hindus and their evil onions.) I wanted to talk about vibration and NAAM. Not one person commented on spiritual discussion. Everyone wanted to jump on the Hindu onion merry-go-round using arsenal of kitchen sink, assorted apples, garlics, some anti-Buddhist rhetoric and of course the token RSS allegations.

While this is the most illogical forum in history, at least it is entertaining. No one can harm your identity. You don't realize how powerful you are. You can win sheer Armies of evil brahmin Hindus and RSS provocateurs through frustration, misdirection and derailment alone. At this point I sincerely don't believe that a single Hindu gives a damn about Sikh identity. I'm only trying to address deliberate insults and prejudice or open dialogue of serious spiritual topics about philosophy.

And repeatedly I'm called to answer the 9 million unrelated objections. Last but not least a quote lifted from a website about some Dal Khalsa rally in 1981 (as if Dal Khalsa aren't propagandistic hot-heads themselves) taking about how mobs of thousands of Hindu thugs got together simply to make fun of Sikh appearance and tell Sikhs they don't deserve special status for Amritsar (as if a mob had the authority to grant or to deny) and they should leave the country how anyone can prove it and what it has to do with spiritual philosophy??? More likely Pro-Khalistani Dal Khalsa pissed off a lot of folks and were agitating to gain sympathy for their movement and everyone is swallowing (including on Hindu side) loads of crap intending and suceeding in drive a wedge between two communities and causing problems. Khalistan, rightly or wrongly, is a pipe dream. It's not worth dying for because it doesn't exist. It will never exist. Khalsa Raj will rule whole of India and whole of world. And they won't be manmukh political people, they will be holy. So anything about Khalistan agitations and mob riots and Buddhists decline 1000 years ago means nothing.

I'm reading Hindu scriptures because they contain high, noble and beautiful truths. Not because I think the average Hindu has any enlightenment and is not himself drowning in an ocean of suffering and delusion. I'm trying to discuss RELATIONSHIP between communities, not the 50 million differences, the miri piri, the Amritsar issue, the plumbing issue, the genocide issue, any of that.

I'm trying to discuss those age-old Truths which help mankind get out of the trap that just leads to more of the same. Because veer jis, this is really hell on earth. And we have got to make a start at being a part of what brings people together. I don't know what else to say. I'm not guilty of the 20 million crimes. I'm not any representative of Hindu religion who you can slander or blame. I'm not talking the side of wrong-doers. I'm simply trying to open doors to discuss beautiful and holy spiritual philosophy on a forum. You know people get sick, loved ones are dying, and they look to articles that can uplift them. But we are all wasting the opportunity to discuss ridiculous nonsense that leaves everyone feeling bad because it harps upon only the worst and ugliest things.

What a waste of internet space.

[laalsingh]

Just an opinion. Nothing more. I have no proof of anything. And at this point in time, the scholarship supporting the Kartarpur Bir is the best. But for myself, because of the aggressive Singh Sabha reactions, my doubt remains that something may be wrong somewhere. And not only for spurious bani like Mira Bai found in the Banno recension, but missing from the Kartarpur Bir.

You don't even believe in authenticity of Guru Granth. Everything including Guru Granth is a big Singh Sabha conspiracy for you.

[HarjasDevi]

You don't even believe in authenticity of Guru Granth. Everything including Guru Granth is a big Singh Sabha conspiracy for you.

THAT is a lie and a nindya. Gurbani Truth doesn't rest on Kartarpur Bir or Banno Bir or whether one was earlier or not or whether one is a version of the other or not, or whether one could be older which no longer exists.

Which the most original? If you question, if you have a concern regarding translation or perhaps there remains some missing bani we have yet to find or acknowledge...

This means the same as Guru Granth Sahib is INAUTHENTIC?

Perhaps your faith has never confronted the skeptical reality of scripture scholarship before. Singh Sabha dramatically changed purataan Gursikhi. That's not an incredible conspiracy, it's documented historical fact. but you can call me anything you like if it makes you feel better.

[chatanga1]

I don't care to look up names of Khatri leaders.

then why make the assertion that the khatris descendend of Guru Kul were leading the panth?

While this is the most illogical forum in history, at least it is entertaining. What a waste of internet space.

hold on there. you havent been thrown off this forum like you have from some others. or maybe you could be right in that the other logical forums fathomed your logic, and couldnt live with themselves.

[HarjasDevi]

I don't care to look up names of Khatri leaders.

then why make the assertion that the khatris descendend of Guru Kul were leading the panth?

I don't care to waltz down that path because it's unrelated to the topic and ridiculous, same as I won't bother to explain what was happening historically with brahmins and Buddhists as it defies imagination how it pertains to the thread.

Did you read my new signature?

"Sikh scholars Kesar Singh Chhiber, Rattan Singh Bhangu, Giani GianSingh, Santokh Singh, et al, were products of the two-century timespan, [just after the Guru-period], between early eighteenth to earlytwentieth centuries, whenthe impostors and pseudo-Sikhs, that Dr. Fenech's fraternity callsSanatan Sikhs, controlled Sikhism and corrupted its theology,religiosity and history with Avatar-ism, occultism, idolatry andmythology; and befuddled the Sikh psyche. Theliterary works of these Sikh authors reflect the literary trends andparadigms that were more akin to Hindu scriptures than Sikh creed andhistory.

The concerned Singh Sabha intellectuals had to cleanse Sikhism of this contamination and restore it to its originality..."

(~Louis E. Fenech Insinuates Militancy in Sikh Martyrdom Tradition, Charnjit Singh Bal)

hold on there. you havent been thrown off this forum like you have fromsome others. or maybe you could be right in that the other logicalforums fathomed your logic, and couldnt live with themselves.

More personal insults. You people are a delightful bunch.

[GuruKirpa84]

Nobody's calling you names sis,

I don't know what leads you to think Sikhism is derivated from Hinduism.

I haven't read all of your long posts but it says you believe in Guru Granth Sahib ji's sikhea, that's what u said

Here are some Tukkan:

Vaart Na Raho Nah Meh Ramzana|| Tis Sewi Jo Rakhe Nidana ||

Haj Kabe Jao Na Teerath Pooja|| Eko Sewi Awar Na Dooja ||

Nah Hum Hindu Nah Musalman|| Allha Raam Ke Pind Puraan ||

Sikhism has similarities to Hinduism, could be

Islam , could be

Christianism, could be

Bouddhism , could be

Any other religion, could be

But it doesn't make it derivated from those religions. Look at the basic differences: they're huge.

Anyways, I don't want to waste my time, nor urz.

Waheguru ji kirpa karan.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

I have not read much of the prior posts, because i am lazy. But it may be useful to consider that the way in which the word 'Hindu' is being used. Are words such as -Brahman-, hindu? Is the word -Parameshvar- a Hindu word. Also what is the concept that underlies the word Brahman? If Brahman represents the oneness of ultimate reality then is Brahman a synonym for Tawheed, if used in the same sense. Brahman is also taken to mean a mantra or verse from the Rk Veda for example the Raudra Brahman.

It is misleading to compare two traditions that use the same terminology without pointing out the underlying concepts. Is the Brahman of Shankaracharya the same as the Brahman of the Yoga Vasishtha? It obviously is not. Is Shiva as represented by kashmiri shaivism the same Shiva for the Shaiva Siddhantins of south india, again no they have different conceptions.

Thus the foundation of the unity of modern hinduism is based upon not firm ground but a sea of shifting sands. There is nothing like what people call hinduism, these days. Apart from the neo-vedanta espoused by Vivekananda, which is somewhat wishy-washy, it is a vague adherence to something called 'Sanatana Dharma' a hotchpotch of ideas picked up from a variety of traditions mixed up together.

Also as a warning i'd like to state that we in the modern world do not appreciate the value of ideas. Each idea can be considered a living being or a form of consciousness. Certain ideas be they part of what is known as hinduism or sikhism are put into this world for the freedom and upliftment of all humanity, they have a certain maryada attached to them and we must be very delicate how we use these conceppts and for what purpose. Certain beings sent from above embody these ideas without any admixture we on the other hand are formed of multifarious ideas and conflicting concepts, we are required to fix in ourselves the ideas of whatever path we choose. All religion is ultimately subjective, debates about what outer denomination these ideas belong to is in my opinion devaluing the universality of these ideas.