Interpretation Of Bachittar Natak

[amritkhalsa]

I was on sikh sangat webiste and in one of forum of discussions i found this link http://srec.gurmat.info/srecarticles/sridasamgranthsahib/hemkunt.html Its a different Interpretation Of bachittar natak (Hemkunt Sahib) and how the general mass of the sikh panth has misinterpreted the openinge verses of Bachittar Natak.

Edited August 14, 2010 by amritkhalsa

[chatanga1]

i cant understand how the sapt sring ie the 7 peaks works into this. otherwise its quite interesting theory.

[dalsingh101]

I must say, it does seem a bit 'stretched' at the first read.

[amardeep]

I also belive in the above interpretation of Hemkund

[Bundha]

The link did not work for me, but i suspect that this is the idiotic theory that in Bachittar Natak Apni Katha is all about the womb

Oh boy, how sikhs get taken in by any idiotic theory that people trump up is beyond me. We have no faith in our Guru, rather we are persuaded by the most idiotic of theories, how weak we must be in our faith to be suaded by such nonsense.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Bundha

[amardeep]

How is it an idiotic theory ? The yogic postures are mentioned in Gurbani when poeticly describing the state of the foetus in the womb.

[Xylitol]

if it's the womb, then he spent a long time in that womb. it's typical missionary rubbish.

[amardeep]

Where does it say in the Dasam Granth that the 'event' took place in satyug?

[DTF]

To say Guruji was in a womb is utter blasphemy. According to Gurmat, Guruji does not enter the world through the womb, ie. are not born.

Trust the 'scholars' to bring the status of Sargun Parmeshwar to that of a common man with a message.

Just ask a Brahm-gyani to ask Guruji themselves to clear up any doubt before coming up with absurd theories.

These people have too much trust in their own budhi to even consider, perhaps we shouldn't be confusing the sangat so much with new theories all the time.

[amardeep]

Isn't there plenty of tuks in Gurbani saying the Gurus took birth.

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥

धंनि धंनि गुरु धंनि जनमु सकयथु भलौ जगि ॥

Ḏẖan ḏẖan gur ḏẖan janam sakyath bẖalou jag.

Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਬਹੁਤ ਕਾਲ ਇਹ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਿਤਾਯੋ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਸਮੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋ ਆਯੋ ॥੩॥

बहुत काल इह भांति बितायो ॥ जनम समै नानक को आयो ॥३॥

A long time passed like this till the birth of Nanak.3.

etc etc..

[Guest]

Our sikh gurus didn't took birth...they were ajooni...mahapursh have stated guru avtars were pargat....how it works vahigurooo ji themselves do this chamatkar where womb is filled up with vayu and at the time of labor...mata gets for lack of better word behooosh during labor..its maharaj leela and maharaj gets pargat..may be kam can shed some light on this.

[dalsingh101]

Dasmesh pita repeatedly warns about religious paths becoming corrupted because people confused worship of the nirankaar, beant akaal purakh with worship of messengers, yet we still persist.

Now people are somehow twisting the natural mechanism that God created to bring life into this earth into something somehow beneath those that he/she/it sends to to guide us.

In any case, as interesting as the 'womb theory' is, it takes a large amount of 'creative thinking' to come to that conclusion. The argument is convoluted in a massive way, and evidence in support of it seems scant.

Edited August 14, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Mithar]

I don’t really see anything wrong in stating that Guru Jee took birth for the Kalyaan of this world. I think it is out of immense shardha people start to make/create myths and legends like mothers of the Gurus had their stomach filled with air and passing out during childbirth only for Guru Jee to appear out of thin air. This is similar to how many used to claim that when 9th Guru got Shaheed their blessed sees was automatically dislocated by itself even before the executioner swung his sword since no sword can touch Guru Jee. I am all for and in favour of Shardha, but let us not take shardha to the extreme where Guru Jee’s own Bachans are then being contradicted.

[amardeep]

Sorry but I agree with Mithar and Dalsingh. That the Guru's parkashed themselves does not contradict the fact that they took birth (as stated numerous times in Gurbani. I've come across more references but only posted the two above).

[dalsingh101]

How is that sharda Mithar?

All it does is confuse people, sooner or later.

That isn't sharda but something unrestrained. If the highest thing after truthful living is truth, how can Sikh sharda encompass faith in that not based on certain truth but rather extrapolative thinking of the most imaginative kind.

Sure, we know this is a human process, as can bee seen in the development of Janam Sakhis but today, there is no need for calling people blasphemous if they do no subscribe to particular theories with reasonable objections. Where does that path lead us?

I'm sorry brothers, I readily admit I am flawed to the core but to suggest that someone is being blasphemous because they believe Guru ji entered this world through the mechanism that God created for that very purpose isn't right.

I don't believe Waheguru is ever pargat on earth, but that they do (mystically) manifest themselves in much if not all of what we see around us from what little I understand (especially through Akaal Ustaat). I believe the Gurus are God's messengers and God's light on earth but I don't think that they are avtaars of God as in God coming physically coming to earth in person.

Another thing I've realised is that Sikhi is a deep thing that can be explored in multiple ways/dimensions (i.e. political, ideological, mystical, musical, textual, historical, martial, rational, devotional to name a few). Each individual approach can help tease out and develop our understanding and experience of this way of life. Not having a holistic approach seems to limit ones understanding possibly?

No offense intended to anyone. But we do need to discuss these important things amongst ourselves in an open hearted fashion.

Edited August 14, 2010 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

I read Dalip Singhs interpretation of the Hemkund story and found it to be very beautiful and in line with Gurmat teachings as well as expose the beauty of Dasam Bani in terms of poetic metaphors...

[amritkhalsa]

the link is working just had to take out the . infront the html.

[chatanga1]

I'm sorry brothers, I readily admit I am flawed to the core but to suggest that someone is being blasphemous because they believe Guru ji entered this world through the mechanism that God created for that very purpose isn't right.

I don't believe Waheguru is ever pargat on earth, but that they do (mystically) manifest themselves in much if not all of what we see around us from what little I understand (especially through Akaal Ustaat). I believe the Gurus are God's messengers and God's light on earth but I don't think that they are avtaars of God as in God coming physically coming to earth in person.

This is what I have thought for many moons, but have always kept to myself. Why deny the holy womb of Mata Tripta? If Waheguru has set the holy and precious creation, why deny it? Or why view it as un-natural, or dirty or shameful?

[dalsingh101]

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong but are we being asked to accept an interpretation of Bachitar Natak which at its core involves the use of a theory derived from a book called ‘New Approaches to Dream Interpretation’? When did it become okay to start using abstract Freudian style nonsense to make sense of our writings?

Okay, sure, be creative and seek. The Dalip piece does have a few interesting perspectives within it but the womb theory is pretty tenuous....at best.

[amardeep]

How is it tenous? Yogic postures are mentioned in Gurbani as describing the actions of the foetus and the place that the King did yog is also related to intercourse (ok i'll admit i never did look it up in original documents).

[dalsingh101]

Well, lets look at how yogic actions are exactly used to describe the actions of the foetus in Gurbani and then compare this to the text in Bachitar Natak and see how they map/transfer?

Can someone provide a link to right ang of Guru ji for this?

I think it is tenuous because it relies on a theory of dream interpretation at its core. These things are no science and extremely subjective, no? Highly contestable to say the least. So ANY thing based on such material is likely to be quite abstract.

Edited August 14, 2010 by dalsingh101

[DTF]

Sorry for going further off-topic, but it's important to note that the idea of Guruji NOT taking physical birth through the womb is not a new invention.

Sampardas have maintained this view, perhaps not making it very clear to the normal sangat.

Akal Purakh becoming pargat is not exactly a big deal. How many times have Guruji become pargat to give partakh darshan to Sants and Sevaks? Countless.

Did Narsingh take birth and grow up someplace before coming to Prahlad Bhagat's rescue? No.

Honestly, who knows Guruji more, his dear Sants or commoners like us? Not trying to use the "Sant card", but something to consider.

Even Jeevan_Mukt Brahmgyanis who are sent by Guruji to help the world don't have to hang in the womb.

From what I've learned through katha and veechar of Mahapurshs and Gursikh vidhvaans(Sant Jagjit Singh Ji and Gyani Thakur Singh Ji to name some), Guruji is beyond Bhog Bilas; thier bodies are not made of the elements( even though appearing the same as normal beings); fire, water, weapons, nothing can affect their bodies, only for the world Guruji makes it seem they feel hot, are bleeding from a wound, etc. Guruji does not sleep, only show as such for sansarik kirya.

These things are kept more gupt because it takes away from the "story" that Guruji plays out for the sansaar.

But I guess it's difficult for many people to accept these veechars, hence they are not commonly shared in sangat.

Edited August 14, 2010 by DTF

[amardeep]

DTF: how do you explain the above tuks that use the word janam to describe the Gurus coming to this world?

[dalsingh101]

I don't get it.

The mode of sending them here to us, matters nowt!

It is what they came to give to us that matters. Whether they were born through bhog or not has absolutely no bearing on this.

Just for theories sake, lets say Guru ji arrived here via the normal route, does that diminish them in your eyes in some way? If so then we can start playing the 'where is your sharda?' card. Isn't their mode of arrival irrelevant to their important message to us?

Edited August 14, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Mithar]

Here is a quote from Bachitar Naatak where Guru Jee mentions their own blessed janam. They mentions that at Tribani He was in the Garb of His Mata and by the time Their mother reached Patna, Guru Jee had then taken Janam.

ਅਥ ਕਬਿ ਜਨਮ ਕਥਨੰ ॥

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

ਮੁਰ ਪਿਤ ਪੂਰਬ ਕੀਯਿਸਿ ਪਯਾਨਾ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕੇ ਤੀਰਿਥ ਨਾਨਾ ॥

ਜਬ ਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਬੇਣੀ ਭਏ ॥ ਪੁੰਨ ਦਾਨ ਦਿਨ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਤਏ ॥੧॥

ਤਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਪਟਨਾ ਸਹਰ ਬਿਖੈ ਭਵ ਲਯੋ ॥

ਮਦ੍ਰ ਦੇਸ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਲੇ ਆਏ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਦਾਈਅਨਿ ਦੁਲਰਾਏ ॥੨॥

ਕੀਨੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਨ ਰਛਾ ॥ ਦੀਨੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕੀ ਸਿਛਾ ॥

ਜਬ ਹਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮੋ ਆਏ ॥ ਦੇਵ ਲੋਕ ਤਬ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਿਧਾਏ ॥੩॥

ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੇ ਕਬਿ ਜਨਮ ਕਥਨੰ ਨਾਮ ਸਪਤਮੋ ਧਿਆਇ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ ॥੭॥ ਅਫਜੂ ॥੨੮੨॥

Guru Gobind Singh Jee himself says he took janam, to contradict Guru Jee is utter blasphemy of the highest order. Please brother, I am in favour of Shardha and worship Guru Jee, but let us please not contradict our Guru Jee.