Christian Questions

[Bundha]

Came across this : http://whitedragonawa.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/my-response-to-an-angry-sikh/

not sure if anyone with a bit of know how wants to give this guy a response ?

[amar_jkp]

Surprised Surprised why our so called Sikh Scholars are not replying ?

I hope after my reply some will join or i will take this to Sikh Sangat site.

I am posting a video which will prove that translation of bible from different languages was not correct.

http://youtu.be/ijtipfO9vdU

i hope his question on Gurbani Translation will be answered by others.

[amar_jkp]

Surprised Surprised why our so called Sikh Scholars are not replying ?

I hope after my reply some will join or i will take this to Sikh Sangat site.

I am posting a video which will prove that translation of bible from different languages was not correct.

http://youtu.be/ijtipfO9vdU

i hope his question on Gurbani Translation will be answered by others.

[HSD1]

Surprised Surprised why our so called Sikh Scholars are not replying ?

When it comes to arguing between castes, jathas or egos our quasischolars are world class. When it comes to external things like other religions they shit their pants and find somewhere to hide until it blows over. Then they come back and give it large until people get bored.

[amardeep]

link looks like a virus

[drawrof]

Surprised Surprised why our so called Sikh Scholars are not replying ?

I hope after my reply some will join or i will take this to Sikh Sangat site.

I am posting a video which will prove that translation of bible from different languages was not correct.

http://youtu.be/ijtipfO9vdU

i hope his question on Gurbani Translation will be answered by others.

I tried logging into the site but I can't from work. We have the goindval pothi's and the har sahai pothi which were written at the time of the guru's. We also have birs with the guru's signature in the british library and other places around north america. their god is pure...but then if evil isn't god's creation...is evil a parallel creation created by another diety? if so, does their god have a nemesis?

We believe in reincarnation and the cycle ends with knowing that god exists within us and that we are god. So heaven and hell are mental states at best. have they any proof apart from faith that heaven and hell exist apart from a promise?

[dalsingh101]

When it comes to arguing between castes, jathas or egos our quasischolars are world class. When it comes to external things like other religions they shit their pants and find somewhere to hide until it blows over. Then they come back and give it large until people get bored.

Or some people couldn't give a flying fart about what Jesus boy has to say.

Bored bored bored.

We might as well take Jehovah's witnesses seriously next.

Who gives a crap about what every tom, dick or harry is saying? Do we have to respond to every last barking dog? Can we not let them bark and carry on doing great things? The greatest thing we could do to shut such mouths up is to be a model community and rise. But the truth is that society wise right now we have no big vision, plan or achievements.

And yes, right now I think it's more important to nail internally dysfunctional dynamics such as caste rather then respond to every last bible bashing crank.

Send it to Sikhsangat. A lot of people live for this type of stuff over there.

Edited June 27, 2011 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

For future reference. If any Christians ever try to question your faith, do this. It has never failed to put their noses out of joint in my experience. They usually go away quickly after.

1) Dinosaurs, dinosaurs, dinosaurs. Question the accuracy of Genesis given the stark evidence to the contrary. "We've got skeletons the sizes of buses. Why are you ignoring that?"

2) "Does God think incest is acceptable?" Then who breeded immediately after Adam and Eve to populate the earth? They must have been brothers and sisters if A&E were the sole inhabitants here?

But better than getting embroiled in petty arguments is to just avoid these pillocks and work on improving yourself and our society. Nothing can be a bigger testimony to the faith than a compassionate, vibrant, dynamic, growing community.

Edited June 28, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

Or some people couldn't give a flying eff about what Jesus boy has to say.

Bored bored bored.

We might as well take Jehovah's witnesses seriously next.

Who gives a shite about what every tom, dick or harry is saying? Do we have to respond to every last barking dog? Can we not let them bark and carry on doing great things? The greatest thing we could do to shut such mouths up is to be a model community and rise. But the truth is society wise that we have no big vision, plan or achievements as a community right now.

And yes, right now I think it's more important to nail internally dysfunctional dynamics such as caste then respond to every last bible bashing crank.

Send it to Sikhsangat. A lot of people live for this type of stuff over there.

Well it seems that xtians have made pretty large inroads into sikh communities in Punjab and Canada. In my local area there were a few Gurudwaras all based along caste lines. Unfortunately this didnt go unnoticed by Jehovahs Witnesses amongst other evangelical anglos who converted a shit load of 'low-caste' sikhs to bible bashing. It aint a nice feeling when you open your front door to ****deep Gill, a former sikh telling you how his life growing up as a sikh was shit, but now he is christian and has loads of friends from the christian community blah blah etc. This may not be happening in your neck of the woods but in towns and villages across the uk the christians are doing all kinds of outreach tactics, especially through the internet.

Responding to outsiders in a clever and rugged manner shows we arent to be f*!"ed with. It also stops every half-educated depressed sikh running off into the arms of people who are good with the sweet words.

As for caste, we can talk high notions but what can we do by typing on the net? The truth is that casteism has to be dealt with in 3 ways:

1. True Equality: An inclusive community that really shows what brotherhood means. And this isnt in regards to caste alone - it has to reduce sexist and colour barriers within the Punjabi Sikh community, which are two issues just as prevalent as casteism.

2. Education: people are a sum of what they are taught as children. Therefore a decent education combined with teaching young sikhs how to behave would help to tell people what is acceptable and what is not.

3. Legal Punishment: fines and jail sentences for discrimination arent exactly bad ideas, especially if applied to all sikhs, not just to one group.

The problem with any idea of creating equality is that it meets the usual stumbling blocks of who controls Gurudwaras and how to change the government in East Punjab. Expecting rural communities to fund schools and lobby for changes in the law is ridiculous as poor farming communities dont usually do that sort of thing.

On another thread you said that Sikhi is dead in Punjab. The truth is if Sikhi can be made to work in Punjab, it could work anywhere. If we all run to the west to form communities, whats to say the same problems wont start in these communities that were in Punjab. I'm guessing London's sikh communities have escaped the worst of the christian bullcrap. Growing up around christians it wasnt hard to mock the inconsistencies in their faith, in fact a lot of them admit that the bible cant be taken literally at all. But that doesnt change the fact some sikhs are falling for it because they are thick, feel alone or see christianity as opening doors for them in the uk. Now Britain will never be a sikh country so we will always face some sort of religous discrimination even if it is just simmering under the surface. This will continue to eat into our numbers. Kind of hard to create a community when there is no one here to do it.

[dalsingh101]

My flatmate's pastor was an ex Sikh women who still used the name Kaur. When I was a kid my mum let this evangelical family from the US in our house and although she never converted and probably just wanted to talk about religion in the weird way she used to, I can now see how their aim was to convert.

So I know what goes on.

My point to you is that unless we become a society that people don't want to leave. One that people want to join. One that makes them feel happy (not miserable and suppressed). One that supports its members especially the vulnerable. Unless we become a people who value and promote wide ranging learning. We will always be easy prey for people who like to convert.

Ultimately we should approach the problem like the middle class whites have with their class concerns. They have essentially simultaneously ridiculed and caused the working class to aspire to them. And thus bolstered their numbers whilst decreasing the number of oiks. But they have money, resources and the levers of power to do this, whilst progressive Sikhs have nowt. Plus you know even the most thick pendu Panjabi thinks he is the dog's gonads! How you going to teach hordes of people like that without some serious power in your hands?

Edited June 28, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

I guess it all goes back to getting money and using it. Gurudwaras moan about govt taxes when they have enough money to fund proper academic sikh schools and sixth forms with plenty left over to sponsor girls in Punjab or build up infrastructure so that people do not have to rely on the badal government. But when good ideas get tabled there is the usual talk of not being able to do it for this that and the other. Add that to nespotism and the stranglehold certain families have over Gurudwaras I dont think this will change. The only other way is to get rich and become a Sikh philanthropist.

[dalsingh101]

The only other way is to get rich and become a Sikh philanthropist.

Yep.

But I'm thick, talentless and cantankerous to boot. So I most probably wont be making big money any time soon.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

their god is pure...but then if evil isn't god's creation...is evil a parallel creation created by another diety? if so, does their god have a nemesis?

We believe in reincarnation and the cycle ends with knowing that god exists within us and that we are god. So heaven and hell are mental states at best. have they any proof apart from faith that heaven and hell exist apart from a promise?

Even in Sikhism there is a notion of evil. Doing Simran, reading Gurbani are seen as Good activities, the opposite is seen as bad or evil. Maybe the Nemesis known as Satan exists within the unity of God. As me and you and all Humans are capable of acts which are, so to speak, against God, is it not conceivable that a Being of a higher order, a deva, rebelled in this way? Sikhism accepts the existence of Devas and other spiritual beings, that influence human events, but in Sikhism they are put in their correct place as servants of the Guru, and not worshipped to get worldly benefits. Christianity is a very good and holy religion which has been corrupted and misintepreted, maybe because the nemesis got scared that through this religion people may find out his plans so he had to destroy it. Christianity can be viewed correctly through the lens of Sikhism.

There is a Hindu saying "what is here, is there, what is not here is nowhere" -here- means the body. So if heaven and hell and God and the devil can be found in the body, because everything is connected, they must exist elsewhere in their own sphere. We know God exists in Sachkhand. As all interpenetrates all and all is connected, we on Earth or in Dharamkhand, can know, have khaber, of God, who has His place of residence in Sachkhand not here on Earth.

[dalsingh101]

We know God exists in Sachkhand.

I think considering sachkhand as some literal/physical place is a misinterpretation. I mean how many times does Jaap Sahib tell us that God has no particular place.

And what can you see in bani that gives support to the notion of rebellious devta like Lucifer?

If anything Sikhi suggests that even asuras worship him.

Edited June 28, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

So you do not believe the khands as enumerated by Baba Nanak in the Holy Japji, are not literal explanations of reality?

Sachkhand is a 'State of Existence' if you prefer these words rather than place. Or rather the Existence or Being that existencises all other beings. This Great Being of beings is on a higher plane of existence than our own existence. As levels of being or existence interpenetrate one another every level can be known but each level operates in a certain sphere, which sphere cannot be accesed whilst incarnated. In ordinary language rather than speaking like a highly technical philosopher using specialised language, it is better to say Sachkhand is a place very far from Earth. The words 'far' and 'place' used in this sense have a different meaning than their spatio-temporal meaning. If you -don't- view Sachkhnand as a place you can go towards as a literal place of great Joy and Happiness, then i with great sorrow wish you a happy existence in your intellectual abstractations.

Asuras do not worship God even though Gods' essence existentiates all beings in the cosmos, many beings refuse to worship God. Look out your window and see how many people who refuse to believe in God. Asuras are a race of beings who worship their own desires and do not wish to help God in the operation of the cosmos. Only some asuras who overcome their inherent nature like Prehlaad and Bali, can worship God. Asuras impel people to go to prostitutes have affairs drink and take drugs, by affecting the mind of the person, they are ethereal made of mental substance.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Mekhane'ch Jannat

[dalsingh101]

Sachkhand doesn't appear to be a physical place. I don't claim to understand the khands right now, but this seems excluded.

If Sikhs accept that living beings can merge back with the divine (achieve sachkhand) whilst in an earthly existence (a jivan mukht) then how does it become some spatial-temporal residential zone of Waheguru? It doesn't correspond to the Semitic concept of heaven where God sits.

Also Jaap Sahib describes God as ਅਧਾਮੰ , ਨ੍ਰਿਦੇਸੇ , ਨ੍ਰਿਧਾਮੇ , ਅਜਾਹ clearly emphasising the point.

And why are you mixing Abrahamic mythology with Sikhi? You can't hammer the Lucifer/God conflict into Sikh cosmology like you are trying to. Inventive as it is, it is without any antecedent in Sikh scripture.

What you are trying to do is create a false sense of integration between two very distinct faiths. It's creative but there is no need for it.

Edited June 28, 2011 by dalsingh101

[laalsingh]

Nothing is beyond Him. In this drama, people act good and bad. Some worship Him, others refuse to acknowledge His existence. But it is all Him.

Maya exists with His Hukm. Maya or Satan is needed for this drama. Without Maya, it would cease to exist.

[Mithar]

Sachkhand doesn't appear to be a physical place. I don't claim to understand the khands right now, but this seems excluded.

If Sikhs accept that living beings can merge back with the divine (achieve sachkhand) whilst in an earthly existence (a jivan mukht) then how does it become some spatial-temporal residential zone of Waheguru? It doesn't correspond to the Semitic concept of heaven where God sits.

Also Jaap Sahib describes God as ਅਧਾਮੰ , ਨ੍ਰਿਦੇਸੇ , ਨ੍ਰਿਧਾਮੇ , ਅਜਾਹ clearly emphasising the point.

I remember long ago reading on the Tapoban forum a debate between Kulbir Singh and J Singh about what "merging" with Vaheguru means in Sikhi. That was an epic debate. It was a debate between whether or not Sikhi subscribes to Advaita Vedant or not.

Prof Sahib Singh and Sikh missionary collage have interpreted the Khands as being an "avastha". Giani Harbans Singh, Joginder Singh Talwara, Bhai Randhir Singh Jee have interpreted it as spiritual realms instead of avastha.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Mithar