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Revisit Definition Of Gurmukh And Manmukh.


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ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥

Raag Asa by Guru Ramdas ji
ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ਮੈਡਾ ਸਾਂਈ ॥

Karta Purakh you are my Swami, my master.

ਜੋ ਤਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਥੀਸੀ ਜੋ ਤੂੰ ਦੇਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਹਉ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Whatever You please comes to fruition. Whatever You give us we get.

ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਭਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥

Everything belongs to You and everyone meditates on You.
ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਤਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Those whom You bless, find the jewel that is Your name.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਧਾ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥

Those who are Gurmukhs find the jewel, and those who are Manmukhs lose it.
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਛੋੜਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

You make us lose it, You make us find it again.

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For many years-abhramic black and white interpertations of Sikh terms found in Gurbani were put fwd by sikhs who were more attuned with conceptual sikhi than essence Sikhi in expereince. Two such terms which were coined often were Gurmukh and Manmukh to explain good and bad without much contexualization. Sure we look at the basic interpertation of Gurmukh and Manmukh it means - Gurmukh (one who follows Guru) and Manmukh (one who follows mind) and there is no issue using that to discourage others from fives vices, improve discipline But what gets missed from time to time is broader, deeper estoeric definition of term Gurmukh and Manmukh-

Gurmukh - Gurmukh ( one who is attuned and indentifies with inner pure consciouness our real jot-chaitan/intuitive wisdom, acts, functions from inner soul - our real jot as it appear as hakum always unfolding) backdrop behind conditioned mind which is not confined to social religious construct (amritdhari or not).

Manmukh- Manmukh(one who is attuned with mind, one who indentifies with conditioned mind), functions, acts, reacts out of mind. This manmukh definitation is not confined by social religious construct be it amritdhari or not.

So by that deeper definition most of us are manmukhs and only rare diamonds are gurmukhs. So let us all strive to be indentify, function, acts, react from our real inner soul consciounes (Gur-chaitan-mukh towards) by further stilling our mind via Gur shabad, Gurshabad gian- wisdom than spent time judging others.

All of this talk of gurmukh manmukh etc is all hogwash anyway from bramins in chitta kurta blue pagg aka gyani types.

If u walk path of Sikhi you are Sikh, if you don't you are giddar.

End of.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ|ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ| |

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On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2014 at 11:15 PM, starchpagg47 said:

All of this talk of gurmukh manmukh etc is all hogwash anyway from bramins in chitta kurta blue pagg aka gyani types.

If u walk path of Sikhi you are Sikh, if you don't you are giddar.

End of.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ|ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ| |

No,...not quite...

Sikhi is the path of where one is to transform from manmukh to gurmukh isn't it ??

What's this got to do with brahmin?.... and is calling every other non-sikh a giddar, going to keep you on the right path towards gurmukh?

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No man!!

A Gurmukh is a person following rehat better than you; who is actively involved in the community social scene; this makes him/her innately better than the Manmukhs who can't reach those high standards, being lowlifes that they are... lol

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I know you were making a joke but I couldn't help but get serious and well there's some truth to that but not in the manner one would think.

So far we have only been talking about inner life. A Gurmukh is one who connects to the inner Atma and obtains Atam Gyan.

But in his social life. A Gurmukh is one who accompanies Sadhus, Saints and those who are connected with the Sat (Sadh Sangat, Sant Sangat and Sat Sangat).

You become like your peers and the people you look up to. So hanging out with other Gurmukhs makes one into (more of ) a Gurmukh.

And those who do not come to these gatherings are Manmukhs.

So how do you identify the gathering of Gurmukhs? How do you identify who is a Sadhu, a Sant?

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I know you were making a joke but I couldn't help but get serious and well there's some truth to that but not in the manner one would think.

So far we have only been talking about inner life. A Gurmukh is one who connects to the inner Atma and obtains Atam Gyan.

But in his social life. A Gurmukh is one who accompanies Sadhus, Saints and those who are connected with the Sat (Sadh Sangat, Sant Sangat and Sat Sangat).

You become like your peers and the people you look up to. So hanging out with other Gurmukhs makes one into (more of ) a Gurmukh.

And those who do not come to these gatherings are Manmukhs.

So how do you identify the gathering of Gurmukhs? How do you identify who is a Sadhu, a Sant?

I'm just saying that human nature is complex and has the habit of turning all endeavours into an exercise in ego boosting. There is an issue with people who like to be part of a social scene when it makes them feel superior. Lots of the time you meet these people they are smug and haughty. There is some weird group thing going on. Obsession with keeping up appearances. I'd bet we've all seen this.

I've known a fair few families like this whose daughters are undercover freaks, or sons are drug addicted alcoholics - still they bowl around hiding all of this like they are some pillars of the community. Sometimes the Gurmukh is hardnose business man too, ripping people off left right and centre. But you know what our lot are like: once there are conspicuous displays of wealth - respect comes.... lol

Like any faith, we often have issues with people following matters rigidly to the letter but not in spirit.

Edited by dalsingh101
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So how do you identify the gathering of Gurmukhs? How do you identify who is a Sadhu, a Sant?

Though it is quite difficult to identify one, because we have closed our eyes and ears, with our ego and agyanta of maya spread throughout ....

It is a case of grace, of blessings from Him, to be in the company of such high Mahaprukhs/Gurmukhs, not otherwise...

But there are some signs or points to be kept in mind if ever such occasion arises :

.

First of all they live on their own earnings, they do not charge anything for their teachings.

Guru Nanak was a farmer. Kabir Sahib was a weaver, Bhagat Ravi Das was a shoemaker, Christ was a carpenter and so on, spiritual progress can only be possible with good and noble character, and self hard earnings, not by begging or depending on alms.

Plus they give out some part of their earnings to the needy, something like daswand....

Secondly they do not display spiritual powers to attract huge masses, nor do they perform miracles... They are simple and "gareeb" in their lives ....They live in the will of the Lord.

We have the simple examples of Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj or Christ....They were one with Akal Purukh, if they wanted they could have punished by themselves to those who commited utter atroccities on them... but still they said: tera bhaana meetha laageh...

Thirdly, they themselves do the devotion of His Simran, and inspire others to do so, as the only method to cross the maha bhavsagar and reach His Lotus Feet.... Naam Simran is the only ritual, the only pilgrimage. Parbh Ka Simram sabh te oochaa.

Inspite of all this, the world usually abuses them verbally and sometimes even phisically, as they think that they are going to their outer well established methods and rituals of their so called religions...

The world is hardly conscious that Wahiguru is the only permanent reality, and is to be found only within us, nowhere outside....

Outside we have wars, disputes, confrontations... what a pity .... Nobody has ever seen Him, and all are fighiting due to the agyanta of maya, that my religion, my god, is superior to yours...shame on us ...

If only we could go within and see that reality within us, which is the same in all.

Ik Noor se sabh jag oopjaey, kaun baleh, kaun mandeh.

And this Noor is nothing else, but the Jot, the Shabad Dhun, of Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000
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  • 2 weeks later...

Satsriakal Harsharan

I agree that one who lives off his own work, one whose mind is gareeb/empty and one who does simran is a sadhu.

However, I have some differences. In my experience the first one doesn't apply to someone like Eckharte Tolle. Who, from what I have heard, lives off his teachings, the books and lectures he creates.

And the second one does not apply to Bhagat Namdev ji who performed miracles. Though his mind was gareeb, he did perform miracles, which he described in detail in his shabads.

And the third one cannot be truly recognized in anyone with the naked eye. It's an entirely subjective process. One might chant Ram naam right in front of me, but their mind could be elsewhere and I might mistake them for doing simran.

Perhaps enlightened ones do not have a mark or a feature by which they can be recognized. Or perhaps they do and we haven't found the right method for identifying them yet. Perhaps this, perhaps that.

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Brother Bhagat Singh Jee,

you are most welcome to differ from my opinions.

Once again i will talk from my own personal view.

The teachers at school, also impart education, and earn their livinghood. So does Eckahrt Tolle. But I am not talking of these types of teachers, nor philosphers, yogis, gurus, babeys....

No, none of these, I am not at all refering to them, but to those, who are Gurmukhs, Bhagat Janas, Sant Janas, Guru Sahibans, they imaprt the gyan, the knowledge, of Wahiguru Akal Purukh = Gurmat. And about the means to reach and merge in Him, with the aid of Naam Simran/Shabad Guru, without any fees or charges. That is it.

The Bani says: Sadh Sangat othey janeeye, jithe Iko Naam vakhaaniye.

For me, Bhagat Nam Dev, was a being of highest order, who was one with Wahiguru. Rather I would also say, Wahiguru comes and abide in people of this spiritual heights.

Have we not heard:

Prabh Jee baseh, Sadh kee rasna. Prabhe Jee baseh, Sadh Ke hirdey. Nanak, Sadh, Prabh, bhed na paee.

You see brother, once one merges in Wahiguru, one has no desires nor own will, everything is per His will. He works through them.

They do not perform miracles in order to attract masses. So is with Kabir Sahib, or Bhagat Ravi Das.... They were all one with Him.

So if miracles happened within their life span, in my opinion, it was such the hukum of Akal Purukh. We are nobody to question it.

Different thing is, like when avatrs of gods, like Shiva, Krishna, Ram and alike come to earth, they display supernatural powers and weapons.

But their is a main difference between them avatars, and Gurmukhs, Sadh Janas, Bhagat Janas..... While the former ones come to keep the souls entagled here in creation, none of them talk or impart teachings, on Nam of Wahiguru Akal Purukh/ Satnam.

The real Gurmukhs, Bhagats Janas, their main purpose is to awaken us from this mayavee creation, and attach our soul consciousness with the only one eternal reality, Satpurukh, with the jugtee of Naam Simran.

I am sure, you maybe thinking or anyone else, how to know who or which is a genuine Bhagat or Gurmukh/ Brahamgyani.... well, that is all in Wahiguru´s hands.

We can never ever recognize them, though thy may live in our same town or village, or in the same house even, under the same roof, they can even be our father or brother .... if it is not written on our forehead/ destiny, we will never accept or acknowledge them..

What happened with Guru Nanak´s sons? They took Him as mad, when He was the embodiment of Wahiguru Himself...

What happened with, Prithi Chand? He was born in a Guru Ghar, he had one Guru Sahiban, like Sree Guru Ram Das Maharaj, as a father, and yet another one as brother, like Sachay Patshah Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj.

He had their darshan daily, since his very childhood, but then too, did he become free of his eveil tendencies?

Then too, I would say, it was not his fault at all ... No one can go against His hukum.

As the Bani says: to some He pulls towards Himself, to others He leaves them here ... He is Beant, nobody can ask Him why? And that does make Him unjust, as some may think.

So brother Bhagat Jee, it is all His hukum. Wahiguru, out of His love for His bhagats, though they are one with Him, is eveready to do as per their wishes. Though, once again, they have no wishes of their own, but only those, which pleases Him.

The relation and the game of love played between Wahiguru, and His Bhagats, His Sant Janas .... is only known to them, we small people, can never ever understand them....

Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Jee

Edited by harsharan000
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The teachers at school, also impart education, and earn their livinghood. So does Eckahrt Tolle. But I am not talking of these types of teachers, nor philosphers, yogis, gurus, babeys....

No, none of these, I am not at all refering to them, but to those, who are Gurmukhs, Bhagat Janas, Sant Janas, Guru Sahibans,

Harsharan

Teacher, Yogi, Guru, Baba, Gurmukh, Bhagat, Sant and Sadhu - I utter them under one breath.

I am completely open to the idea that the mountain has other paths to the top because I have seen them with my eye, and tested them to see whether they bring me to the top.

I have seen that for every one of His names, there is a path, and His names are countless, so the paths are countless, thus the Sadhu Sangats are countless.

His mountain is the biggest and most expansive I've ever known. So expansive that it will tear apart anyone who attempts to climb up it.

Thus all of those labels are the same to me.

they imaprt the gyan, the knowledge, of Wahiguru Akal Purukh = Gurmat. And about the means to reach and merge in Him, with the aid of Naam Simran/Shabad Guru. That is it.

I have known the Sadhu Sangat outside of Sikhi.

I recognize them. You too are part of a Sangat of Sadhus. I see you as a Gurmukh. I've been silently observing your posts. From your posts, from your mouth, comes sweet words of wisdom. I also see Eckharte as the same, from his mouth, comes the same sweetness.

Akal Purakh da Gyan is available in different forms. It is up to the individual to grasp it. Everyone in the Sadhu Sangat including you, Harsharan, and Tolle is handing out brochures of gyan in printed format.

Whoever listens to you will chant His name, by the mere action of reading your post.

ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਕੈਸੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥

ਜਿਥੈ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥

You are part of the Sat Sangat so is anyone in whose company His name gets chanted. They may dislike your post but you have made him chant His name anyway, haven't you? Jithe iko nam vakhiniye that is Sadhu Sangat.

So back to Eckharte... One is a Sadhu if one's primary vyapar/trade is that of Hari's name (Hari ke naam ke vyapari, heera hath chadheya nirmolak chhoot gayi sansari). A Sadhu can earn money from his teachings. This does not exclude him from being an enlightened being of the highest order.

You see brother, once one merges in Wahiguru, one has no desires nor own will, everything is per His will. He works through them.

They do not perform miracles in order to attract masses. So is with Kabir Sahib, or Bhagat Ravi Das.... They were all one with Him.

So if miracles happened within their life span, in my opinion, it was such the hukum of Akal Purukh. We are nobody to question it.

By your conclusion, it becomes immediately clear that performance of Miracles does not exclude one from being a Gurmukh.

Different thing is, like when avatrs of gods, like Shiva, Krrishna, Ram and alike come to earth, they too display supernatural powers.

But their is a main difference between them avatars and Gurmukhs, Sadh Janas, Bhagat Janas..... While the former ones come to keep the souls entagled here in creation, none of them talk or impart teachings, on Nam of wahiguru Akal Purukh/ Satnam.

The avtar of Hari is Hari. This is clear in Gurbani.

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨੰ ਤ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਹ ॥

The God of Gods is the one Krishn, and He is the soul (of each being).

ਆਤਮੰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਬਾਸ੍ਵਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਨਸਿ ਭੇਵ ॥

The soul is Shri Vasudev, if anyone can recognize this secret (of the non-duality of the soul and God)

He is the Avatar, there is no difference.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥

You took the (Bavan) Vaman Avtar, for the good of all!

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥

Shri Ram Chandra, who has no form, no distinction, has a beautiful form. With His garland of flowers and with that chakkar He wields, it's a wonderous sight to behold!

.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥

You adorn the beautiful dark-skinned form, You charm everyone with Your flute.

We can never ever recognize them, though thy may live in our same village or house even, under the same roof, even they can be our father or brother .... if it is not written on our forehead/ destiny, we will never accept or acknowledge them..

I recognized you, didn't I?

What happened with Guru Nanak´s sons? They took Him as mad, when He was the embodiment of Wahiguru Himself...

It was that they all belonged to different religions. Sri Chand worshipped Shiv ji and Lakhmi Das most likely worshipped Mata Lakshmi, just like Guru Ramdas ji's son Mahadev likely worshipped Shiv ji (Mahadev).

I would say it was mostly a clash of ideology in these examples above. The sons followed their own religions separate from their fathers.

I suspect people back then changed their names to match their religions. Like Lakshman changed his name to Madhav Das, then later when he calls himself a banda of Guru Sahib, people start calling him Banda Singh.

What happened with, Prithi Chand? He was born in a Guru Ghar, he had one Guru Sahiban, like Sree Guru Ram Das Maharaj, as a father, and yet another one as brother, like Sachay Patshah Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj.

He had their darshan daily, since his very childhood, but then too, did he become free of his eveil tendencies?

Then too, I would say, it was not his fault at all ... No one can go against His hukum.

As the Bani says: to some He pulls towads Himself, to others He leaves them here ... He is Beant, nobody can ask Him why? And that does make Him unjust, as some may think.

Prithi Chand is the Duruyodhan of sikh history.

Like Duryodhan was left there, whereas Arjun was pulled closer. Duryodhan was never evil per se, he just never got Krishan ji's blessings.

The same happened with Prithi Chand and Guru Arjun, one was left there, the other one was pulled closer and received Guru Ramdas ji's blessings.

So brother Bhagat Jee, it is all His hukum. Wahiguru, out of His love for His bhagats, though they are one with Him, is eveready to do as per their wishes. Though, once again, they have no wishes of their own, but only those, which pleases Him.

The relation and the game of love played between Wahiguru, and His Bhagats, His Sant Janas .... is only known to them, we small people, can never ever understand them....

Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Jee

^ Basically confirms I have recognized you.

Here's a poem I enjoy, you might like it.

I entered into unknowing,

and there I remained unknowing

transcending all knowledge.

1. I entered into unknowing,

yet when I saw myself there,

without knowing where I was,

I understood great things;

I will not say what I felt

for I remained in unknowing

transcending all knowledge.

2. That perfect knowledge

was of peace and holiness

held at no remove

in profound solitude;

it was something so secret

that I was left stammering,

transcending all knowledge.

3. I was so 'whelmed,

so absorbed and withdrawn,

that my senses were left

deprived of all their sensing,

and my spirit was given

an understanding while not understanding,

transcending all knowledge.

4. He who truly arrives there

cuts free from himself;

all that he knew before

now seems worthless,

and his knowledge so soars

that he is left in unknowing

transcending all knowledge.

5. The higher he ascends

the less he understands,

because the cloud is dark

which lit up the night;

whoever knows this

remains always in unknowing

transcending all knowledge.

6. This knowledge in unknowing

is so overwhelming

that wise men disputing

can never overthrow it,

for their knowledge does not reach

to the understanding of not

understanding,

transcending all knowledge.

7. And this supreme knowledge

is so exalted

that no power of man or learning

can grasp it;

he who masters himself

will, with knowledge in

unknowing,

always be transcending.

8. And if you should want to hear:

this highest knowledge lies

in the loftiest sense

of the essence of God;

this is a work of his mercy,

to leave one without

understanding,

transcending all knowledge.

A poem on spiritual knowledge by Saint John of the Cross

Stanzas concerning an ecstasy experienced in high contemplation.

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Sat Sree Akal brother Bhagat Jee,

First of all, the poem of Saint John of the Cross, is fantastic, mind blowing, very deep..... mystic

Then the second point, I am not at all worthy, to all the superlative adjectives you have given me. Those shoes are much bigger than my size ^_^ .

And believe me, this is not false humility. I am normal human being, like any neighbour.

Sorry to say the contrary of what you believe me to be, or dissapoint you, you do not know me at all.

I maybe a charlatan, who knows? So brother, just do not judge me by what I write.

I am a very big manmukh yet, I have a long way to tread.

I myself have seen, here in this very web of sikhawareness, though few, some real sikhs, whose names I will not mention, so that they may not feel uncomfortable, who are real bhagats, and I am proud and happy for them....

Some more points:

* Nobody will ever repeat His Name, just because they read it again and again, but it is only possible by His glance of Daya Meher.

That is why the Bani says: Seh Simrae, jisnoo Aap Simrae. Aap Japae, japeeye so Nao.

Because if by reading people could do the real Bhakti, it would be very easy and desirable, but Bhagat Jee, Wahiguru bhee kuch cheez hoonde hae.

People recite the Bani hundreds of times, and what is written there, is the law in spiritual terms, by Gurmukhs, by Guru Sahibans themselves ....but then too, tell me, how many do understand and follow the Bani implicitly, taking it as Sach Hukum.

So you see, if people do not follow and understand the Pure Ones, Guru Sahibans, with the Bani by the messages they convey us, on bhakti, on love, on devotion, on humility, on detachment, on bireh ......etc .... where is the place of this das n das, this paapee ...

Please do not confuse the sangat. He is important, the Bani is important, Nam is important; in summary ... sikhee is important.

Let me remain out of the scene of these Higher Truths. Let the people, keep these Truths in their mind, eyes and as their final objective.

I am always, as much, only a brother to all. If ever anybody needs any help from me, as an human being, I will feel very much being a wadbhgee, in giving that helping hand.

It is my love for all mankind, and above all, I see everybody as His jeevas, who are wandering in the merciless creation, so I just try to ignite the flame of love and devotion, in as many hearts as possible, by singing His Mahima, His wadeeayee in the Bani.... And I am quite consciouss, that many many will dislike what I say, as I am above any rituals, or being an orthodox.

What is important in Bhakti ? It is important to submit our minds and hearts to Wahiguru, The body is perisahble, insentient and unconsciouss by itself.

We are all aliens here in this mayavee creation, He is our True Father, from whom we have been separated since countless ages, Sach Khand is our True Home. And unless we reach there, our miseries shall never end. Unfortunately, people under agyanta, try to build their future in this world, by strong bonds of things like dharam, mazab, land, culture .... etc

You see, me, you, he /she, we, you, they, are nothing. In the sense, He is the only doerSome may feel pride by thinking, because of me or somebody, this or that happened.

You see, If He wanted, He can even make the stones carry out His Hukum. Even the wind that moves the leaves of a tree, is because of His Hukum.

So, He is only important.

Then, one thing you mentioned is, His mountain(abode) is the highest, and there are countless paths, each one for His countless names.

Here I slightly differ from you, let me tell you.

If Wahiguru is one, the path taking to Him has to be one, it can not be different for different people, religions, castes, creeds.

Maybe in the region of Braham, this is posible, that for one destiny to be reached, you can come from east, north , west or south, or even by air, land and /or water.

But, there where Wahiguru is, there is not only one way, but one vehicle also to be boarded.

No other path, no other vehicle has any capacity, nor authrization to enter there.

These are not my words, but His law, His Hukum for all , without any discrimination of any type.

In that sense, the Bani is most valuable, it says : Nanak Naam jahaz hae.

You see, if we want to reach Wahiguru Akal Purukh, we have to take unconditional shelter in the Shabad Guru or Nam, it is the same thing. There is absolutely no other way. So it is the Shabad Guru which takes us crossing Braham, Parbraham, till Sach Khand, we by ourselves, at most can only reach Braham, that also, a very few jeevas among millions and billions.... so there is no question even, talking about His Darbar we alone.....

Or do we think, that going there is like going for a tour abroad, or in the space? We moorakh people surely think this way.....

Moreover it is also mentioned in the Bani, that this Hukum, or this path for meeting and merging in Him, did not start some several hundred years back with Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj, neither did it end with Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, but this Hukum has been carried throughout the 4 yugas. And so shall it remain for the future generations, for ever and ever ....

This is, no man made law, but something designed by He, Himself....

You are quite a good, a noble ,and a sensitive person, and believe me, I wish you the best, to grow more and more in spirituality.

May God bless you.

P.S: I would aprreciate if you relate to me, more as a brother, or a friend ....than all the big adjectives given by you, which I do not desreve.

Bhool chuk, maaf karne jee.

Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru.

Edited by harsharan000
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Sat Sree Akal brother Bhagat Jee,

First of all, the poem of Saint John of the Cross, is fantastic, mind blowing, very deep..... mystic

In what way did you relate with it on a personal level?

Then the second point, I am not at all worthy, to all the superlative adjectives you have given me. Those shoes are much bigger than my size ^_^ .

And believe me, this is not false humility. I am normal human being, like any neighbour.

Sorry to say the contrary of what you believe me to be, or dissapoint you, you do not know me at all.

I maybe a charlatan, who knows? So brother, just do not judge me by what I write.

I am a very big manmukh yet, I have a long way to tread.

I myself have seen, here in this very web of sikhawareness, though few, some real sikhs, whose names I will not mention, so that they may not feel uncomfortable, who are real bhagats, and I am proud and happy for them....

Fair points.

To judge oneself accurately is also the mark of a... someone who has looked within. There is a lot of entangled mess and other crap inside us. And most people do not make an effort to even look at it. So it's always good to see someone who has.

Those who have exude that kind of self-knowledge, whether only small amounts here and there.

Some more points:

* Nobody will ever repeat His Name, just because they read it again and again, but it is only possible by His glance of Daya Meher.

That is why the Bani says: Seh Simrae, jisnoo Aap Simrae. Aap Japae, japeeye so Nao.

Because if by reading people could do the real Bhakti, it would be very easy and desirable, but Bhagat Jee, Wahiguru bhee kuch cheez hoonde hae.

People recite the Bani hundreds of times, and what is written there, is the law in spiritual terms, by Gurmukhs, by Guru Sahibans themselves ....but then too, tell me, how many do understand and follow the Bani implicitly, taking it as Sach Hukum.

That is true but reading it is sufficient for the time being for that person. They are not read to take it any further at that time, so reading is good.

Guru Tegh Bahadur ji gives the example of paapi Ajamal, whose Guru told him to name his son "Narayan". For most of his life Ajamal called his son, Narayan, being ignorant of the name. But in his last moment, on this deathbed when he said Narayan, having been ignorant and attached to paap his whole life, this was his moment, he understood and was liberated.

So even those who you think will not understand, just might understand everything in an instant.

ਰਾਹ ਦੋਵੈ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਝਸੀ ॥

The one who recognizes two paths as one, is liberated.

The two paths being the path of angel-demon, Gurmukh-manmukh, etc the good and the bad.

Also Musalman-Kaffir, Hindu-Musalman, Theist-Atheist and so on.

One path you consider good, you think that this is the way to go, the Second path you consider not so good, you say this is not the way to go. Consider these two paths as one path towards Waheguru.

Both paths obey His hukam.

So you see, if people do not follow and understand the Pure Ones, Guru Sahibans, with the Bani by the messages they convey us, on bhakti, on love, on devotion, on humility, on detachment, on bireh ......etc .... where is the place of this das n das, this paapee ...

Please do not confuse the sangat. He is important, the Bani is important, Nam is important; in summary ... sikhee is important.

Let me remain out of the scene of these Higher Truths. Let the people, keep these Truths in their mind, eyes and as their final objective.

I am always, as much, only a brother to all. If ever anybody needs any help from me, as an human being, I will feel very much being a wadbhgee, in giving that helping hand.

It is my love for all mankind, and above all, I see everybody as His jeevas, who are wandering in the merciless creation, so I just try to ignite the flame of love and devotion, in as many hearts as possible, by singing His Mahima, His wadeeayee in the Bani.... And I am quite consciouss, that many many will dislike what I say, as I am above any rituals, or being an orthodox.

What is important in Bhakti ? It is important to submit our minds and hearts to Wahiguru, The body is perisahble, insentient and unconsciouss by itself.

We are all aliens here in this mayavee creation, He is our True Father, from whom we have been separated since countless ages, Sach Khand is our True Home. And unless we reach there, our miseries shall never end. Unfortunately, people under agyanta, try to build their future in this world, by strong bonds of things like dharam, mazab, land, culture .... etc

You see, me, you, he /she, we, you, they, are nothing. In the sense, He is the only doerSome may feel pride by thinking, because of me or somebody, this or that happened.

You see, If He wanted, He can even make the stones carry out His Hukum. Even the wind that moves the leaves of a tree, is because of His Hukum.

So, He is only important.

Yes

Then, one thing you mentioned is, His mountain(abode) is the highest, and there are countless paths, each one for His countless names.

Here I slightly differ from you, let me tell you.

If Wahiguru is one, the path taking to Him has to be one, it can not be different for different people, religions, castes, creeds.

Parbrahm Waheguru can be reached from multiple paths. The common thread in each path is the loss of Haumai, that can happen at any point and is bound to happen, sooner or later.

When the drop falls into the ocean there is no way it can maintain it's own individual identity separate from the ocean. It's impossible! And recognize all drops will fall into the ocean at some point, it's only a matter of time. Yes some fall earlier and yes attaching oneself to naam simran will speed up the falling process.

The paths may look different because there is a path for each soul. There are so many souls being attracted to Him and they each carve their path towards Him. And they call Him by different names. Each of His names is its own path.

At the same time, it's important to keep steady in one's own path though. I think it's important the stress the importance of naam simran, bani, and such things for our path to our people and to ourselves.

Plus a lot of people are just wandering, they are making it extraordinarily difficult for themselves to fall back into the ocean and so they need any guidance they can get. Naam simran will be invaluable to them. So even if they only read the name then forget about it, that's good enough for now.

However when we do stress the importance of Sikhi, in that instant, simultaneously, we should be open to the idea that ultimately any path is going to work. This comes from humility and in humility, there is immense openness and love to be found. When openness and love are there then we attract the wandering mind/people towards Waheguru.

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In what way did you relate with it on a personal level?

The common thread in each path is the loss of Haumai, that can happen at any point and is bound to happen, sooner or later.

Dear Bhagat Jee,

To your question above, I very much agree with the answer you yourself have given in your post, which I have reproduced and underlined, along in your quote.

And the way I liked it?

Well it is enjoyable like watching a nice picture, and in this case, it is the vocabulary, the depth, the message of hope, of faith, and above all, of His mercy, which assures, that what we have come to know about ruhaniyat in Sikhee, is the same with all true lovers of that Supreme Truth, Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000
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  • 2 weeks later...

Let us see a little bit more of the beautiful topic of this thread, in the Light of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

Note:First of all, Guru is not anyone who inspires others to devote themselves to Wahiguru, but yes, this much can be the duty of all well wishers,with a little bit of mercy showered by Him on us...

Dhan Dhan Guru Sachay Patshah Arjun Dev Maharaj, in His Bani of Raag Gond, talking about the sewa alloted by Akal Purukh to the True Guru, says:

bhoolay ka-o gur maarag paa-i-aa.
The Guru shows the Path to those who have wandered off.

The thing is, the outer Guru can guide you with His discourses in His sadh Sangat, but as Guru Jee tells us in the line above, He as Guru, as a dispeller of darkness, which is within us, He guides us, by showing us the Path to Wahiguru´s abode, with His own Light, as Shabad Guru.

We must bear in mind, all outer Gurus, Lovers of God, Sant Janas, Bhagats, deserve our respects; but the path of sikhee, is a path to be travelled within, so it is there where we need the guidance of the Shabad, the Guru, of which Guru Sahiban is talking in this Shabad mentioned above.

So as we read, He shows the path to us, who have wandered off.

But we may ask, how can we be wandered off, if we do all our so called duties as a devotee?

All the Guru Sahibans, Bhagat Janas, as seen in the Bani, they have only stressed on Nam Simrran as His bhakti, so it is this first step, that in Sadh Sangat we become aware of what is devotion in terms of real bhakti, which is Naam Simran alone... and accepted in His Dargah.

He makes us aware that, any other practices, however done with the noblest of intentions, has no value in His eyes, as, it does not bring us closer to Him.

We read in the Bani, it is His Simran alone, which washes our sins, thus makes us purer by removing the filth from our minds and souls. So naturally if we do not do His Simran, how or when will we be able to remove all the countless karmas or sins collected, from our heads since we left our Father´s House...since aeons...our karmas are "behisaab".

That is why in the following line He says:

avar ti-aag har bhagtee laa-i-aa.
He leads them to renounce others(practices/agyanta), and attaches them to devotional worship(Naam Simran) of the Lord.

Then He says:

janam maran kee taraas mitaa-ee.
He obliterates the fear of birth and death.

Means, He has blessed us with the biggest Gift of His Daya Meher, by reconecting our links with Wahiguru, through His Simran, thus we shall die for the last time in this very birth, means we shall not come into the womb of a mother again. Means we are free from the cycle of births and deaths, through His real bhakti alone.

This is the wadeeayee of a True Guru.

So is it expressed by Guru jee in the next line:

gur pooray kee bay-ant vadaa-ee.
The glorious greatness of the Perfect Guru is endless.

In the following lines, now He discloses the fact, the value, the meaning of a True Guru, that is, that He guides us within, with His Light

anDhkaar meh bha-i-aa pargaas.
and the Light shines forth in the darkness.

And so, the result of this guidance is that , we come to know Satpurukh, Satnam, our Creator.
jin kee-aa so gur tay jaani-aa.
Through the Guru, know the One who created you.

*My God, when we read such beautiful Bani, one just stops and gets a type of inner happiness, inner bliss, because, the soul says: My Lord I have heard and knew, You are Great..... But Sachay Patshah, all I can say with my mouth wide open is that, Your Greatness, Your inmensity is beyond any imagination....

Further on in His Bani, Guru Jee just explodes and reveals us the true essence of such a Guru, thus He says:

gur kirpaa tay mugaDh man maani-aa.
By the Guru's Mercy, the foolish mind comes to believe. ( It is only by His Grace, that we manmukhs can believe in His words, not otherwise)

gur kartaa gur karnai jog.
The Guru is the Creator; the Guru has the power to do everything.

gur parmaysar hai bhee hog.
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be.

This is the key point of the Bani, now we know that, it is He Himself, who comes as a Guru, to guide us souls back. His Path and abode are unfathomable, so naturally the owner of Sach Khand can be the only one, who knows how to reach there.

So, Guru/Satguru is not the body which is made of matter and is thus perishable, and for this very reason which we so commonly mistake and fight among ourselves.

Guru is Shabad, Guru is that Highest level of Consciousness which has descended at our level, Guru is the Creator Himself, as seen above in the words of Guru Jee.

The importance/value is of the Jewel( Shabad), the jewel box is just a container.

It is by having that Jewel we can become rich and prosperous, while only having the container box, we shall remain paupers. And this Jewel, according to the Bani, Wahiguru has kept it within each one of us in equal measure, irrespective of our karmas, our sins, our vikars, etc...it is inside us, and it is there where the True Guru tells us to find it, and moreover He guides us to achieve it.

And so after explaining us some Truths of the True Guru, Sachay Patshah Arjun Dev Maharaj in the end, He says:

bin gur mukat na paa-ee-ai bhaa-ee.
Without the Guru, liberation is not obtained, O Siblings of Destiny.

Because within us is inmense darkness, no matter if at initial stages we see inner lights or sounds, but it is after Parbrham, where there is utter darkness, and then only we will understand, the above words of Guru Jee, that without the Light of that Sahabd Guru, we can not move even an inch forward, thus the need of that Guru.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000
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  • 3 years later...
16 hours ago, paapiman said:

The below topic is also related to this thread. The passage which Gyani jee narrates is from Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Excellent veer ji here is a video i found whilst on the subject and a few links on the subject

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,17192

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,15063

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,17559

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,25034

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,7115

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,1093

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,983

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,3884

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,4844

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
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