Deeper Insight Towards Meat Debate (Veggie Vs Non Veggie)

[Ragmaala]

wow thats surprising coming from Mann Sahb.

Well I agree with papiman, cow protection is a must in khalsa raj.

[paapiman]

 

Bro, please have a look below.

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[kdsingh80]

Bro, please have a look below.

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I know earlier sikhs protected cows.But can you give me 1 logical reason not to kill cows while allowing killing of buffaloes.

You claim that Sikhism is scientific then what type of science is this. 75% of cattle population of Punjab  are Buffaloes and 90% of milk comes from them . So the animal that provide 90% of milk is not considered as mother while the 10% remaining milk provider is given as status of mother

[CdnSikhGirl]

If cow protection is a must then there is NO WAY someone can condone dairy products at all.  

The fact is known, the baby calves are KILLED / SLAUGHTERED within first week of life so that the milk produced for the calf can be used instead for human consumption.

Anyone who is against meat eating because of killing the animal, but drinks dairy is a hypocrite!  

One cow produces milk only for a limited time after birth of a calf.  Then to make more milk, she is impregnated again. Anyone who thinks that all these baby calves are kept and allowed to grow and live full lives, are in serious denial.  Dairy farmers would run out of space.  They either sell them for slaughter or kill them in first week of life.  
If you are against killing of animals... you should be vegan.  There are milk alternatives like rice milk or almond milk.  

Don't be a hypocrite! 

[sukrit kaur]

dairy farms are just as bad Bhenji so if that upsets you, you should not be using dairy products either. 

I dont think if they are as bad as meat or egg farms .In india ,Dairy farms are like homes of Farm men especially in Punjab.There cows and buffaloes are provided with all adequate and nutritious diet and are cared with all possible measures.What kinda cruelity you are talking about? I've seen people loving their cattles and taking care of them as their babies.

[paapiman]

Bro, science is below Satguru jee's hukam. Waheguru's command is to protect cows (not sure about buffaloes), so Khalsa (when in power) will protect them.

Consuming plant food is clearly permitted in Gurbani, even though scientifically speaking, plants are being killed and suffer pain too. 

Bottom line - Almighty God's commands have to be followed,

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

I dont think if they are as bad as meat or egg farms .In india ,Dairy farms are like homes of Farm men especially in Punjab.There cows and buffaloes are provided with all adequate and nutritious diet and are cared with all possible measures.What kinda cruelity you are talking about? I've seen people loving their cattles and taking care of them as their babies.

1) In order to produce milk a cow must get pregnant.
2) One cow does not produce much milk ( we are speaking about amounts to sell and be lucrative
3) Cow has baby cow... baby cow needs that milk. But wait... the humans want that milk.
4) what do you think happens to the baby cows???
5) SOME calves are allowed to grow to become milkers... FEMALES only.  Very FEW males are kept to be breeders. The males mostly are killed. Many females are too, as we are talking about LOTS of babies each year.  No farmer has the crops or space to expand their cattle herd by this many of babies per year which is what would happen if they kept all the babies and allowed them to grow and live full natural lives.  Again, what do you do with the babies?? Sell them to other dairy farms? They have their own babies to deal with. 

What do you think happens to the baby cows, aprticularly the males???????  They are killed... or sold for meat / slaughter.  They usually are killed within the first weeks of life, to be used as a meat called veal.
 
Every time you drink milk or use dairy, there was baby cows that were killed so that the dairy product could be made instead of feeding the baby cow.  There is no way to get around it or else youd have way too many males cows on the famr in no time which the farmer then has to feed and is not getting any return on.  The dairy industry indirectly feeds the veal industry.  If you dont know what veal is, please Google it.

 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[kdsingh80]

1) In order to produce milk a cow must get pregnant.2) One cow does not produce much milk ( we are speaking about amounts to sell and be lucrative
3) Cow has baby cow... baby cow needs that milk. But wait... the humans want that milk.
4) what do you think happens to the baby cows???
5) SOME calves are allowed to grow to become milkers... FEMALES only.  Very FEW males are kept to be breeders. The males mostly are killed. Many females are too, as we are talking about LOTS of babies each year.  No farmer has the crops or space to expand their cattle herd by this many of babies per year which is what would happen if they kept all the babies and allowed them to grow and live full natural lives.  Again, what do you do with the babies?? Sell them to other dairy farms? They have their own babies to deal with. 

What do you think happens to the baby cows, aprticularly the males???????  They are killed... or sold for meat / slaughter.  They usually are killed within the first weeks of life, to be used as a meat called veal.
 
Every time you drink milk or use dairy, there was baby cows that were killed so that the dairy product could be made instead of feeding the baby cow.  There is no way to get around it or else youd have way too many males cows on the famr in no time which the farmer then has to feed and is not getting any return on.  The dairy industry indirectly feeds the veal industry.  If you dont know what veal is, please Google it.

 

Earlier male calves were castrated and used to plough or pull cart but now with tractors this purpose is over , most farmers delibrately  starve the calves if they are of no value .

[CdnSikhGirl]

Bro, science is below Satguru jee's hukam. Waheguru's command is to protect cows (not sure about buffaloes), so Khalsa (when in power) will protect them.

Consuming plant food is clearly permitted in Gurbani, even though scientifically speaking, plants are being killed and suffer pain too. 

Bottom line - Almighty God's commands have to be followed,

Bhul chuk maaf

Not ALL plants... just the ones that die as a result.  We can eat the ones which naturally drop their fruit, because the main plant lives.  The fruit dropps to spread the seeds anyway. 

So this includes things like beans and lentils would be fine. Also eggplants, peppers, peas, tomatoes, corn etc. which are plucked off the parent plant. Rice and other grains are also ok because it's essentially the seed pod we use. 
Most fruits are ok and berries etc. Because the plant does not die. 
But not root vegetables like potatoes (so much for aloo), yams, turnips, carrots, gobi, brocoli, etc.  because the plant dies as a result. Even mushroom would be bad...

Maybe this is why Gurbani says to eat simply... I remember a quote about lentils and rice... using the vegetables that do not kill the plant itself, there are still many options! 

In olden times, there weren't alternatives to dairy... now there are.  So if we are against killing... and if we are for protecting cows... then should we really use dairy when there are things like rice milk, almond milk, margarine, vegan cheese, etc?? I mean, even in the west here, if you are interested in the whole turkey dinner at holidays thing... there is a whole turkey made of tofu you can buy! Complete with a stuffing made of rice and cranberries and vegan gravy in the kit!  (I've tried it, and it's not bad!)

Eggs, are ok as long as they are not from a factory farm, but instead a small organic free range operation. Chickens lay eggs regularly anyway, and there's no male chicks born since they are never fertilized.  Eggs are much more humane (as long as you avoid factory farms) than dairy - and is still only a 'product' of an animal and not anything living which was killed.

 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Ragmaala]

There is nothing wrong with dairy as long as the cow and buffaloes are kept in good condition, treated and loved like cats and dogs. 

Calves are not killed in Punjab as far as I know. Dairy situation is bad in North America. 

I had a cow in my house when I was a kid , back in India. We loved her, took photos with her, fed her , gave her showers during hot weather, had a cooler installed for her during hot seasons. We respected her more than the dog in house. 

[Ragmaala]

And we never had shortage of milk in house, enough for us and enough to donate at a local Gurudwara. 

I miss my cow ..what a cutie

[Ragmaala]

But I am unsure about the situation of cows whose milk I drink, in canada.  I do feel bad and hope they have been treated right. :(

we need more rights for dairy animals  in canada

[kdsingh80]

There is nothing wrong with dairy as long as the cow and buffaloes are kept in good condition, treated and loved like cats and dogs. 

Calves are not killed in Punjab as far as I know. Dairy situation is bad in North America. 

I had a cow in my house when I was a kid , back in India. We loved her, took photos with her, fed her , gave her showers during hot weather, had a cooler installed for her during hot seasons. We respected her more than the dog in house. 

I hope you still have all her calves and their calves . Also Punjab is one of the places where buffalo meat is exported from India, wonder where those slaughter house got their buffaloes

[Ragmaala]

I hope you still have all her calves and their calves . Also Punjab is one of the places where buffalo meat is exported from India, wonder where those slaughter house got their buffaloes

My family does not kill cows calves or buffaloes. And yes the 3rd generation from my cow is still there in punjab, healthy and alive.

However, I cannot say the same for others.

Are you vegetarian kdsingh80 ?

[CdnSikhGirl]

Raagmala a cow produces milk only for a few months after having a calf. She can't produce it endlessly.  That means every 4 months or so she has to be impregnated again.  That's a lot of calves to keep!!! And your family kept all of them?? Are you sure??? 

[Ragmaala]

lol u r funny satkirin

u need to live in a pind/ village..

u seriously crack me up

[CdnSikhGirl]

lol u r funny satkirin

u need to live in a pind/ village..

u seriously crack me up

How is that funny???  You kept all those baby bows??? Or you find it funny that they are sold for slaughter or left to starve to death in their first weeks of life? There is NO WAY that ALL of the baby cows on ANY dairy farm are kept.  You'd quickly be overrun by cows!! 

[kdsingh80]

My family does not kill cows calves or buffaloes. And yes the 3rd generation from my cow is still there in punjab, healthy and alive.

However, I cannot say the same for others.

Are you vegetarian kdsingh80 ?

Not saying your family kill cows or Buffaloes, but it is simple  question of economics. If cows and buffaloes keep on multliplying then whom do you think will take care of bulls or unproductive cows or buffaloes. Punjab is just 50k sq km area with 27 million human population , where is the space to keep them, who will contribute money when farmers are already in distress. A personal family can easily take good care of cows but in the end they too have to sell male calf and majority of milk don't come from personal family cows or buffaloes. So yes milk industry indirectly contribute to meat industry

 

And I am not vegetarian.

[paapiman]

Mistreatment of animals cannot be used as an excuse to consume meat/eggs. People buy milk from their hard earned income. They pay for it. They are not the ones, who are mistreating animals. If one claims that a person, who buys milk is partly responsible for the mistreatment of animals, then there are many other issues which can brought forward.

Examples:

• We possibly use hundreds of products in our homes. Are we 100% sure that all these products have reached us, without any non-Gurmat practice in its chain (human slavery, corruption, etc)?
• What about those good honest people, who live under corrupt governments? Are they also partly responsible for corruption? Should we blame them?
• What about the good honest people, who live in a country, which exploits other countries? Should we blame them?
• What about the good honest people, who live in a country, which invades other countries? Should we blame them?
• What about the good honest people, who work in a company, which indulges in unethical practices? Should we blame them?

If we start thinking about all such issues, our mind will potentially get more and more confused. 

Do we seriously have time to think about all such issues?

Bhul chuk maaf

 

Edited October 17, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Mistreatment of animals cannot be used as an excuse to consume meat/eggs. People buy milk from their hard earned income. They pay for it. They are not the ones, who are mistreating animals. If one claims that a person, who buys milk is partly responsible for the mistreatment of animals, then there are many other issues which can brought forward.

Examples:

• We possibly use hundreds of products in our homes. Are we 100% sure that all these products have reached us, without any non-Gurmat practice in its chain (human slavery, corruption, etc)?
• What about those honest people, who live under corrupt governments? Are they also partly responsible for corruption? How can we blame them?
• What about the honest people, who live in a country, which exploits other countries? Should we blame them?
• What about the honest people, who live in a country, which invades other countries? Should we blame them?
• What about the honest people, who work in a company, which indulges in unethical practices? Should we blame them?

If we start thinking about all such issues, our mind will potentially get more and more confused.

Do we seriously have time to think about all such issues?

Bhul chuk maaf

 

While we can not ensure that every single thing we come in contact with was at some point causing intentional harm to animals etc, milk is a different issue because we can CHOOSE not to buy it.  I'm not against drinking milk, or eating eggs and consume both.  Though I don't eat meat (for other reasons, not religious - for me it's the antibiotics, hormones etc that I dont want in my system.)

What I am speaking against is the HYPOCRISY of making the statement that meat is dissallowed in Sikhi because of mistreatment of animals, while you gulp your milk and turn a blind eye to the killing of baby calves so you can have that glass of milk.  In Paapiman's mind, it's ok as long as someone else does the killing... using that logic, then its also ok to eat the meat as well, since someone else killed it.  

In fact it's the HYPOCRISY that Gurbani speaks against, and not the actual meat eating... if you actually read the shabads which mention it:

ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
Mās mās kar mūrakẖ jẖagṛe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī jāṇai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. 
ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
 Ka▫uṇ mās ka▫uṇ sāg kahāvai kis mėh pāp samāṇe.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? 

What do think he is speaking against? Meat eating? Or being a hyporcite, claiming you are 'holier than thou' by being vegetarian, but doing nothing to further your spiritual path? Then, he outright asks, what is called meat and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? In other words the idea of what we consume being directly related to sin, is condemned, or that by being vegetarian somehow makes you more spiritual. 

Further down in the same shabad:

ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
Mās cẖẖod bais nak pakṛėh rāṯī māṇas kẖāṇe.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. 
ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ 
Faṛ kar lokāʼn no ḏikẖlāvahi gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī sūjẖai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. 
 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[das]

I guess we're all missing the core point here, which boils down to only 2 points:

1. Food is the necessity of Human body, one needs food in order to survive. In other words "We eat to live and NOT live to eat".
2. Grace and Good karmas are required for Soul's travel to its destination but Human Body's is the Soul's carrier. Therefore, try to do minimize the bad karma (be it drinking alcohol, plants, vegetables, meat, eggs, milk, day-to-day work or anything you can think of) so your Mind can progress and go beyond it. Basically, everything has karma attached to it (including breathing because we ingest bacteria!!), so be cautious. Just try to minimize where you've knowledge and potential.

In Gurbani, wherever any thing is mentioned (including the shabads referenced above), it is revolving around the above 2 mentioned points AT THE SAME TIME. You cannot just take one and leave the other. That's where BabaJi has mentioned that "The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom."

Edited October 16, 2015 by das

[paapiman]

Good point by Das jee. 

Another point we have to remember is that the Lekha for eating/killing animals is greater than that for, eating /killing plants, vegetables, fruits, micro-organisms, etc.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Mistreatment of animals is not the only reason, Sikhs are prohibited from eating meat. In reality, to obtain vegetarian food too, one has to kill animals (rodents, pests, etc).

 Two primary reasons* for prohibition of meat eating:

• Meat/eggs have a negative effect on human mind
• Taking animal life causes more karmic debt than plant life

The shabad "Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jagray" is speaking against Hypocrisy. It does not permit meat (animal) eating. In fact, in that shabad, a human body is also refereed to as Maas (flesh). Does that mean, we can consume human flesh too? - No, we cannot.

* - There are more reasons too

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Let's assume we stop consuming dairy products due to mistreatment of animals or due to the fact that we can still survive without it.

What about plant food? Even procurement of plant food, involves killing of animals. Please have a look below:

Quote 

1 scientist in north america did calculation and said that if people of north america shift to beef and dairy products instead of grains then it will result in 80 milion less lost lives of animals as so many rats, rabbits pheasants a birds are killed for harvesting , so no food comes to human plate without killing

Unquote (Kdsingh80)

What should we do now? Starve to death? Start living in forests? Become unhealthy?  

Even during times of Satguru jee, most likely, rodents and pests were killed to obtain food. This is a necessity for survival. People, who don't consume meat/eggs, need dairy products for a healthy body, which in turn is required for spiritual progress. Vegan diet is deficient in many nutrients. Please have a look below.

http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/

 

Keep things simple - Consume food (dairy products and plant food), which are clearly permitted in Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

[kdsingh80]

Let's assume we stop consuming dairy products due to mistreatment of animals or due to the fact that we can still survive without it.

What about plant food? Even procurement of plant food, involves killing of animals. Please have a look below:

Quote 

1 scientist in north america did calculation and said that if people of north america shift to beef and dairy products instead of grains then it will result in 80 milion less lost lives of animals as so many rats, rabbits pheasants a birds are killed for harvesting , so no food comes to human plate without killing

Unquote (Kdsingh80)

What should we do now? Starve to death? Start living in forests? Become unhealthy?  

Even during times of Satguru jee, most likely, rodents and pests were killed to obtain food. This is a necessity for survival. People, who don't consume meat/eggs, need dairy products for a healthy body, which in turn is required for spiritual progress. Vegan diet is deficient in many nutrients. Please have a look below.

http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/

 

Keep things simple - Consume food (dairy products and plant food), which are clearly permitted in Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

What about a person who is allergic to dairy products. ? Should we allow him non veg diet or he/she should remain unhealthy? Milk is one the thing that many doctors and nutritionists say to avoid if you have allergies.