Deeper Insight Towards Meat Debate (Veggie Vs Non Veggie)

[SAadmin]

I thought i share:

The way I look at this whole meat debate, its mindset from both sides of argument try to box Sikhi into black and white rules. Whilst, there may be notable affects of eating enrich foods/tamogun-meat related foods on affecting the mind at intial stages in meditation, but is is relative from one case to another it should be left at that, it affects one then its understandable one becomes veggie.

Above should not be taken overall position of Sikhism rather than relative choice of individual.

This whole eating meat or not eating meat falls in one of gunas of this relative reality which is in itself is part of bigger illusory fragmented reality.

According to my understanding, gurbani has very balanced neutral stance in regards to eating meat, it neither condemns eating meat in totality nor supports it in its totality. It condemns our confined/dogmatic notions behind both positions. Gurbani is of turiya-4th dimension, it ultimately talks about absolute reality which is above from simple black and white rules- allowing of eating meat or not eating meat. Positions in gurbani which supports or condemns eating meat is part of relative reality which is further fragmented into different gunas of divine -(sato-pure - life/compassion-attribute of divine, tamo-death- destruction attribute of divine deathless) both and all three gunas are just as valid as they are all pointing towards chauda pad(4th high dimension reality/absolute reality)- turiya which is gurbani ultimate position on relative realities which is absolute neutral stance eating meat or not eating as not eating meat-compassion/giving life to creation is aspect of divine, or eating meat- destructive force of divine is also aspect of divine /both positions or both aspects (life/death) are of Ultimate reality/truth which underpins both of dualities and is beyond them- turiya- ~ Ik Oankar ~

~ Ik Oankar ~ One universal Eternal Absolute unchanged Awareness Being-Light-Knowledge- God- all in one, one in all- embodiment of stillness awareness, expressing itself in its movement - creating, preserving and changing/destructing spontaneously effortlessly.

[Guest]

Personally speaking, I am veggie, cannot say i am staunch veggie as whenever unconditioned truth operates can't say which position it will express itself as, off course there are times truth would operate and without any second thought driven by deep intuition i would eat by product of egg then my own staunch veggie conditioning lol kicks in feel guilty about it. I guess the point i m trying to make it.

Both eating meat or not eating without any conditioning of mind are equal expression of truth/divine.

The way i understood or felt at times- Our-turiya natural state is neither full time veggie nor full time non veggie, its unconfined unconditioned flowing expression of non dual truth between and beyond both

[BhagatSingh]

N30 I know where you are coming from however Gur Granth Sahib is pretty clear that one should not kill life. There are enough shabads that say this.

Bhagat Kabir says taking a life by force is Adharam. Any time a human, animal, insect or a plant is killed, we put suffering out there.

And yes I said plant. Many vegetarians forget that certain plants are killed for their nutrition. Like sugarcanes, carrots, onions, etc. But not all plants need to be killed for you to obtain nutrition and not all diets require killing.

[Singh123456777]

Personally speaking, I am veggie, cannot say i am staunch veggie as whenever unconditioned truth operates can't say which position it will express itself as, off course there are times truth would operate and without any second thought driven by deep intuition i would eat by product of egg then my own staunch veggie conditioning lol kicks in feel guilty about it. I guess the point i m trying to make it.

Why do you feel guilty?

[das]

I agree with Neo as everything what we can think (with this limited mind); be it Vegi-vs-NonVegi OR Head hair vs No head hair OR religion vs No religion; is in the realm of Mind/Time/Kaal. But that does NOT mean that one should start eating meat or should shave their heads or should abandon one's religion.

e.g Meat (killing for the taste) carry more bad karma as compared to killing of plants. As we know that karmas are NOT supposed to take us to God but the Grace of Guru. But as we live in the realm of Kaal where it is helpful to have less bad karma and be bothered less in the Spiritual journey.

Same thing goes with hair because head hair is going to help one in attracting good/positive forces but hair itself is not going to take us to God. Again, living in the realm of Kaal and having head hair is considered better.

Doesn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji instructed us to go beyond the duality (good/bad, hot/cold, high/low and so on.....).

[Guest]

N30 I know where you are coming from however Gur Granth Sahib is pretty clear that one should not kill life. There are enough shabads that say this.

Bhagat Kabir says taking a life by force is Adharam. Any time a human, animal, insect or a plant is killed, we put suffering out there.

And yes I said plant. Many vegetarians forget that certain plants are killed for their nutrition. Like sugarcanes, carrots, onions, etc. But not all plants need to be killed for you to obtain nutrition and not all diets require killing.

For understanding purposes only, lets fargment or look deeper ..i think bhagat sahiban gurbani in sri guru granth sahib condemn killings of animals lot more than guru's have..thats pretty understandable because of their vaishanav-bhagti aspect in sikhi..Our Guru's included both bhagti aspect and shakti aspect of vahiguru in sikhi. Bhagti -gyan bhav from sri guru granth sahib ji and shakti pakh(aspect) in sri dasam guru granth.? There is no way one can conclude after reading sri dasam granth sahib ji thats mainly bhagti-vaishanav aspect(pakh) its shakat form (bir ras) form where shakti is destructive aspect of vahiguru. Bhagti-shakti are both combined in sikhi.

Even Taksali order which is mix of misal and nirmale arent' staunch veggie, they proponents of veggie in the mainstream but when you speak to them deeply regarding this, they understand jhatka (shakti) aspect upheld in dasam granth and by nihangs.

[Guest]

Why do you feel guilty?

Don't know some times, i guess its part of conditioning i was pretty staunch veggie back then..anyway what i mentioned above needs to be looked at from absolute point of view..i m in no way advocating if you veggie full time go non veggie since especially most of us are simply not that level yet.

[Guest]

Doesn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji instructed us to go beyond the duality (good/bad, hot/cold, high/low and so on.....).

Exactly...Satguru maharaj has changed the game around totally for all those same old debates asked us to go beyond three gunas and abide in turiya(which is already here and now). I actually wrote this post on another forum- spn in the topic of meat which has whopping over 1320 replies, and 164,805 views..god lord..where do people find time for this..meat topic has became very hot divisive topic in the sikh community..what a pity.

[Singh123456777]

Don't know some times, i guess its part of conditioning i was pretty staunch veggie back then..anyway what i mentioned above needs to be looked at from absolute point of view..i m in no way advocating if you veggie full time go non veggie since especially most of us are simply not that level yet.

You are from canada so egg is not fertilized so its just a by product of an animal such as milk or cheese. Do you feel guilty for drinking milk or eating cheese?? There is no need to feel guilty cause its veggie...

If we try telling this to punjabi apney they would cast us out lol

[jaikaara]

Check this video..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnG4wmEH93Q

[Ragmaala]

We have to give lekha for everything. We have to give lekha for the air we breathe, for the many microorganisms we destroy, for the water we drink, for the milk we drink, for the plants we kill and for the animals we kill.

Killing animals is a greater lekha than killing plants. So as per sant mahapurash, killing animals will have a greater karmic effect than just killing plants.

There is a lekha for everything, we cannot escape, it is scary. The only time we dont give lekha is when our mind is engrossed in simran ( in simple terms). And how many times does that happen ?

So it is better to not incur so much lekha that we have to become a goat. hen etc just to get our throats slit.

Only those who themselves have reached the turiya pad etcetc can talk about such high things, because they dont incur lekha.

For dumb people like us, it is better we just follow what has been advised by the mahapurakhs and sants, instead of using our own intelligence or interpretation.

But remember there is a lekha for everything, for the plants, for the grains, for the milk and for the meat. choice is ours.

[BhagatSingh]

Check this video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnG4wmEH93Q

Lol roasting eggplant is not the same as roasting a chicken.

By plucking the eggplant off a plant, you didn't kill the plant, it can grow back. But when you roast a chicken, you killed the chicken.

And boiling an aloo/potatio and boiling an egg are not the same. When you boil an aloo you kill the plant. When you boil an egg you killed nothing.

He is right that certain plants are killed. But he is wrong that vegetarian diets only involve killing plants. He is ignoring the vast amount of nutrition that comes from plants that are still alive and grow back, and some plants that want you to eat parts of them.

In nature

- flowers encourage insects to consume their nectar to spread the pollen around

- that flower becomes fruit and produces proper seeds, trees encourage animals to feed on their fruit to spread the seed around through poop

- although plants discourage grazing of their leaves... it is only because of animal grazing that the environment can become suitable for plants to grow. Animals soften the soil by walking on it and add to the nutrient content of the soil by pooping on it. Animals carry certain seeds with them on their fur that they distribute far away from the parent plant

When you eat Fruits, certain vegetables and leaves, the Jeev is NOT killed. Let's be clear on this.

[BhagatSingh]

Our problems come from the fact that there are way too many of us. We destroy large habitats to make larges spaces for us to live. The largest destruction of land of animals and plants comes from us, through mere existence.

And there is no way to feed such a large population except through factory farming. Google some of these factory farm videos to see how horrible those conditions are.

Habitat destruction is a bigger issue. Controlling human population is the answer.

[sukrit kaur]

All bloody Butchers doing sins day and night,killing lives,killing someone's kids,torturing them,shedding blood on this planet,some for their taste buds,some in name of God,some making excuses of this and some of that!.Just TERRIFIC!!!! 

And All who eat their flesh/suck their bones are equal contributors in their sinful deeds.

Murderers!!

[Xylitol]

I asked Gyani Thakur Singh and he said that even eating unfertilized eggs is prohibited. 

People make arguments re awareness of plants etc to justify meat eating but forget that only those spiritually enlightened beings whose spiritual eyes have opened can tell us what creates more karma. There is a reason that Sant Isher Singh ji  et al repeatedly tell us to abstain from meat. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

I asked Gyani Thakur Singh and he said that even eating unfertilized eggs is prohibited. 

People make arguments re awareness of plants etc to justify meat eating but forget that only those spiritually enlightened beings whose spiritual eyes have opened can tell us what creates more karma. There is a reason that Sant Isher Singh ji  et al repeatedly tell us to abstain from meat. 

Does Gyani Thakur Singh drink milk? Or use dairy products?  What does he think happens to the baby cows? 

I find it a bit hypocritical if someone is staunchly vegetarian and says even eggs are not allowed, but then is ok with dairy - where they are essentially turning a blind eye to the fact that the calves are killed within the first week of their life, so that the milk originally meant for them, can be used for humans.  One common misconception is that cows produce enough milk for the calves and us.  They are horribly wrong.  Cows only produce milk if they are pregnant and have a calf.  If these people think that all the baby calves are kept and allowed to grow to maturity and live full lives, they are seriously mistaken.  So if it's about the killing, then dairy should be prohibited as well and one should be vegan. Because I would think there would be bad karma in killing baby cows just so you can drink the milk meant for them.  

I actually feel better about eating eggs than I do about dairy... eggs are never fertilized so nothing is being killed, unlike with dairy. Though I do eat both.  I don't eat meat though... personal choice.  

[kdsingh80]

Does Gyani Thakur Singh drink milk? Or use dairy products?  What does he think happens to the baby cows? 
I find it a bit hypocritical if someone is staunchly vegetarian and says even eggs are not allowed, but then is ok with dairy - where they are essentially turning a blind eye to the fact that the calves are killed within the first week of their life, so that the milk originally meant for them, can be used for humans.  One common misconception is that cows produce enough milk for the calves and us.  They are horribly wrong.  Cows only produce milk if they are pregnant and have a calf.  If these people think that all the baby calves are kept and allowed to grow to maturity and live full lives, they are seriously mistaken.  So if it's about the killing, then dairy should be prohibited as well and one should be vegan. Because I would think there would be bad karma in killing baby cows just so you can drink the milk meant for them.  

I actually feel better about eating eggs than I do about dairy... eggs are never fertilized so nothing is being killed, unlike with dairy. Though I do eat both.  I don't eat meat though... personal choice.  

Punjab at present is one of leading producers of buffalo meat in India for export . farmers have almost abandoned cows and picked up buffaloes because they get very good price for buffalo which is not producing milk.milk and and meat are 2 wheels of a cart and it is very difficult for farmer to drag this cart with just 1 wheel. 

[Xylitol]

It's not about ethical treatment of animals, it's about what's is (spiritually) lawful and unlawful to eat.

If you pay attention to how the animal is treated than naturally you will incur even less karma from your diet, but first the basics should be correct right?

[sukrit kaur]

Since it's been a very controversial topic here about eggs eating and that egg eating topic was closed ,so I'm posting here a very interesting and eye opening reading.Please guys MUST MUST read it! Hope after giving a look at this,no one will make further excuses to promote these bloody egg farms.

http://www.mfablog.org/9-reasons-eggs-are-the-cruelest-food-on-the

MUST GIVE A LOOK!!

[CdnSikhGirl]

Since it's been a very controversial topic here about eggs eating and that egg eating topic was closed ,so I'm posting here a very interesting and eye opening reading.Please guys MUST MUST read it! Hope after giving a look at this,no one will make further excuses to promote these bloody egg farms.

http://www.mfablog.org/9-reasons-eggs-are-the-cruelest-food-on-the

MUST GIVE A LOOK!!

dairy farms are just as bad Bhenji so if that upsets you, you should not be using dairy products either. 

[Ragmaala]

I hope for a Sikh Satyug Nation where animals are not butchered, and cows and animals are kept in good conditions.

[kdsingh80]

I hope for a Sikh Satyug Nation where animals are not butchered, and cows and animals are kept in good conditions.

This is simply not possible , If farmers have to bear burden of old cows and buffaloes then milk price will go over the roof , soon the people will prefer imported milk powder and ultimately farmers will give up Dairy farming, In other word in Sikh satyug nation there will be no Dairy farms or should I say no animal farms everything imported

[Ragmaala]

Anything possible is, in a imaginary utopian world,  my dream of a sikh nation includes all of planet earth 

 

[paapiman]

Cow protection is a requirement of the Khalsa (when in political power).

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited October 14, 2015 by paapiman

[kdsingh80]

Cow protection is a requirement of the Khalsa (when in political power).

Bhul chuk maaf

Mann favours beef industry in Punjab 

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070508/jal.htm#1