Sikhs visiting graves - opinions

[kdsingh80]

48 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

^ That video is fake.

How?

[amardeep]

6 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Gotta love em!

I fell in love with nirmale after I discovered fareed kote teeka. It was much closer to my reading of Guru Granth Sahib. But these guys went above and beyond that!

I think you should read the Garabganjani teeka. I think its way closer to the way you are thinking. I've found much of what you've said here on the forum in that teeka.

[Sajjan_Thug]

ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥
सवैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
जागति जोत जपै निस बासुर एक बिना मन नैक न आनै ॥ पूरन प्रेम प्रतीत सजै ब्रत गोर मड़ी मट भूल न मानै ॥

He is the true Khalsa (Sikh), who remembers the ever-awakened Light throughout night and day and does not bring anyone else in the mind; he practices his vow with whole heated affection and does not believe in even by oversight, the graves, monuments and monasteries;

[BhagatSingh]

8 hours ago, amardeep said:

I think you should read the Garabganjani teeka. I think its way closer to the way you are thinking. I've found much of what you've said here on the forum in that teeka.

For example? (Page number)

[BhagatSingh]

8 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

How?

Here's the FULL video without the dumbass annotations.

2:45 gives it away as a set-up.

 

[paganvegan]

19 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

No such distinction is ever made in Guru Granth Sahib.

It's a stupid trend to make such distinctions that has arisen recently. This Ram is different that Ram is different. This guru is dehdhari that guru is not.

Dehdhari means Deh - body, dhari - wearer. Someone who wears a body. A dehdhari Guru is the same as any other Guru. All Gurus wear a body.

Obviously your physical body cannot physically combine with another physical body. Nor will you shapeshift to look like the Guru whom you are meditating on.

It is about your soul. Your soul is merging into theirs, your qualities are becoming like them, etc. It is always a merger of souls. The body however is the vehicle for that merger. And when you become the Guru, your body then becomes an insignia of the Guru.

I am little bit confused.  I have just started meditating and it is not easy to stop my mind from wandering. I have to use a very old image of the Guru Nanak to focus my mind on.  Do you think it will be better if I focused on my late Guru ji's image instead? My late Guru ji also initiated me with a mantra to repeat. I focus on the Guru Nanak's image but find my thoughts still wander off to strange places and situations.  Any help will be appreciated. 

[BhagatSingh]

Just now, paganvegan said:

I am little bit confused.  I have just started meditating and it is not easy to stop my mind from wandering. I have to use a very old image of the Guru Nanak to focus my mind on.  Do you think it will be better if I focused on my late Guru ji's image instead? My late Guru ji also initiated me with a mantra to repeat. I focus on the Guru Nanak's image but find my thoughts still wander off to strange places and situations.  Any help will be appreciated. 

Probably your late Guru ji. I am guessing you have more vivid memories of him (in 3d as well). Those will pull you out of distractions a lot easier. And he gave you a mantra as well, perfect. Go with his mantra and image.

Try it for a week and then remember to let me know how it goes.

[Jatro]

19 hours ago, JustAnotherSingh said:

One thing Bhangoo doesn't hold back on is describing the brutal and gruesome details that would make modern uncles and aunties gasp

This is the most interesting and fun thing about Bhangu, he is almost amoral and brutally honest while describing the activities of the Khalsa. It's remarkable how he describes that Khalsa doing its best to completely handicap and destroy Mughal administration.

[paganvegan]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Probably your late Guru ji. I am guessing you have more vivid memories of him (in 3d as well). Those will pull you out of distractions a lot easier. And he gave you a mantra as well, perfect. Go with his mantra and image.

Try it for a week and then remember to let me know how it goes.

Thank you for your reply, I will definitely try what you have said and let you know how it went after a week or so.

[BhagatSingh]

15 hours ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥
सवैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
जागति जोत जपै निस बासुर एक बिना मन नैक न आनै ॥ पूरन प्रेम प्रतीत सजै ब्रत गोर मड़ी मट भूल न मानै ॥

He is the true Khalsa (Sikh), who remembers the ever-awakened Light throughout night and day and does not bring anyone else in the mind; he practices his vow with whole heated affection and does not believe in even by oversight, the graves, monuments and monasteries;

Quoting it out of context gives the wrong impression.

ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
जागति जोत जपै निस बासुर एक बिना मन नैक न आनै ॥ पूरन प्रेम प्रतीत सजै ब्रत गोर मड़ी मट भूल न मानै ॥
He is the true Khalsa (Sikh), who remembers the ever-awakened Light throughout night and day and does not bring anyone else in the mind; he practices his vow with whole heated affection and does not believe in even by oversight, the graves, Hindu monuments and monasteries;

ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ ॥੧॥
तीरथ दान दइआ तप संजम एक बिना नह एक पछानै ॥ पूरन जोत जगै घट मै तब खालस ताहि नखालस जानै ॥१॥
He does not recognize anyone else except One Lord, not even the bestowal of charities, performance of merciful acts, austerities and restraint on pilgrim-stations; the perfect light of the Lord illuminates his heart, then consider him as the immaculate Khalsa.1.

ਸੱਤਿ ਸਦੈਵ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਤਬ੍ਰਤ ਆਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਗਾਧ ਅਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯਾ ਦਮ ਸੰਜਮ ਨੇਮ ਜੱਤ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਸੀਲ ਸੁਬ੍ਰਿਤ ਅਬੈ ਹੈ ॥
स्ति सदैव सरूप सतब्रत आदि अनादि अगाध अजै है ॥ दान दया दम संजम नेम ज्त ब्रत सील सुब्रित अबै है ॥
He is ever the Truth-incarnate, Pledged to truth, the Primal One Begnningless, Unfathomable and Unconquerable; He is comprehended thourgh His qualities of Charitableness, Mercifulness, Austerity, Restraint, Observances, Kindliness and Generosity;

 

Is it saying we should not give to the poor (vand chhakna, charity, generosity ਦਾਨ ਦਇਆ ) or that we should not visist Harimandir Sahib or Anandpur sahib (pilgrimage ਤੀਰਥ )?

No

This shabad is saying -

One should act without seeking the fruit of the action.

Do not believe in the fruits of even Good actions!

Focus awareness on the One Light and do not seek anything else.

One must still perform Good actions however!

The benefit of Good actions comes from God, and not seeking the fruits of the action.

[paapiman]

On 4/18/2016 at 1:53 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Well rehitnamay aren't the authority.

Rehatnamay are not the ultimate authority, but they have their place in Gurmat. After all, they were written by close Sikhs (Brahamgyanis) of Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Masters). It is possible that some of them were tampered, but one can always analyze their content, in light of Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 4/18/2016 at 2:04 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Ancestor worship is fine, it comes naturally and effortlessly.

Even the kattarh Singhs who are against ancestor worship, who might even go around decimating graves, also do ancestor worship. They say "Guru Gobind Singh ji is my father (making Guru sahib their ancestor) and they worship him and emulate him, even go as far as to wear the same pagg as he wore in Sobha Singh ji's paintings... nevermind the fact that guru sahib didn't wear anything like that.

Point is that that is ancestor worship as well whether they admit it or not.

There is a massive difference in worshiping Sri Satguru jee (incarnation of the Almighty Waheguru), as compared to worshiping an ancestor, who might be burning in hell or be in the form of an animal. 

Ancestor worship has no place in Sikhism. Only worship of the Almighty Waheguru is permitted in Gurmat. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

19 hours ago, Jatro said:

This is the most interesting and fun thing about Bhangu, he is almost amoral and brutally honest while describing the  activities of the Khalsa.

 

I don't think he was being remotely amoral myself - he was just being straightforward and honest.

 

If anything, it's the later whitewashed accounts that are amoral - in that they hide the truth and create a false impression of history. 

[Jatro]

2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

 

I don't think he was being remotely amoral myself - he was just being straightforward and honest.

 

If anything, it's the later whitewashed accounts that are amoral - in that they hide the truth and create a false impression of history. 

Sure, i just meant that he showed it for the no holds barred contest it actually was without trying to apologize for anything.

[JustAnotherSingh]

@dalsingh101 and @Jatro, agreed on Bhangoo's unapologetic attitude. Funny story, the first time I read PPP was in early middle school/late elementary school, and I was very much schooled in the "modernist" apologetic group A form of thought. My impression of Shaheedan of old was that they were all like Yoda, spending all their time in meditation, always calm and saintly, and only reaching for the sword in pure self-defense. When I read PPP, I was legitimately disturbed (the violent imagery's a bit much for a kid, especially one raised in a coddled household), and I remember telling my father that I didn't "believe" the text was real and that it was all Brahmin interpolations. He just shook his head, and told me to approach it when I was a bit older. 

 

And now that I have, I love it! In a way, it's sort of comforting to know that Singh's back in the day weren't all esoteric god-men; they were relatable, and I think that makes their sacrifice and struggle more pertinent in a way. Reading Bhangoo also is a great gateway to Puratan texts, in that it helps contextualize a lot of the rigid rituals that didn't make sense if you had this sanitized idea of our history. For example, the rigidness of certain Rehitname makes a ton more sense when you recognize the rough-ass, martial, and hyper-masculine environment these guys lived in. Of course, I don't agree w/Bhangoo on *everything* (e.g., Khalsa identity, some Guru-period history), and I feel like he does sometimes elaborate for rhetorical effect, but his description of misl life and culture on balance is spot-on. 

 

In some cases though, it's all too relatable...When he gives the description of the Tat vs Bandai Khalsa argument, he mentions that the young Tat Khalsa wanted to just butcher the Bandai into extinction while it was the elders that calmed things down (shit eventually went down anyway). It's not too comforting of a history to read for someone who's a bit wary of our confrontational culture when it comes to discussion...

 

Also on a sidenote, the story where the Tat wrestler pins down the Bandai wrestler and stuffs pork down his throat was intense as hell. Imagine that in contrast to much of modern Sikh culture, where so much as mentioning that "I don't believe Sikhi mandates that we have to be vegetarian," leads to a slew of nindaks and abuses.

[BhagatSingh]

5 hours ago, paapiman said:

Ancestor worship has no place in Sikhism.

You guys have yet to prove that.

Good luck though.

[paapiman]

18 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

You guys have yet to prove that.

Good luck though.

It should be common sense for Sikhs.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

9 hours ago, paapiman said:

It should be common sense for Sikhs.

A lot of incorrect knowledge is common sense for sikhs.

I have given up common sense for Waheguru sense.

[samurai]

seems like everyone's given their two bob...to be honest i'm not really that bothered.. but what i do want to know is @dalsingh101..are you going to the grave yard?? have you made attempts to go there?? would be good if you could share your experience of being there unless you want to keep it gupt, which is all good brother..

[dalsingh101]

21 minutes ago, samurai said:

seems like everyone's given their two bob...to be honest i'm not really that bothered.. but what i do want to know is @dalsingh101..are you going to the grave yard?? have you made attempts to go there?? would be good if you could share your experience of being there unless you want to keep it gupt, which is all good brother..

Brother, I have to find it first and it is going to be MILES AWAY - Suffolk or Devon maybe?

Talk about coincidental, I met someone who used to live on the same street as us years ago only yesterday (after 6/7 odd years!) and asked if they knew where he was buried. They told me all of the guys family who lived in the ends have either died or moved away and no one has any contact details/forwarding address. So it's going to be a proper mission to find it. But if Waheguru wills it, it will happen.  No rush. 

Plus, (for everyone else too), I don't see what the big deal with graveyards is. I actually worked in one over summer, years ago. And contrary to all the scarey 5hit certain fudhus are pushing here, it was one of the most peaceful places I've been! lol  Didn't see or feel any ghosts and stuff.... lol

So I don't have negative mental associations with graveyards - to the contrary. I used to be scared of them when I was a kid because of horror movies I watched (I thought vampires and werewolves would be loafting around in them), but I'm long over that now. 

One thing I believe about bhoots and possessions is that they feed off fear, and the people most likely to attract these things are those who are crapping themselves about it. I'm not a saint, but I have a lot of faith in my paat (and simran now), I feel my paat acts like a forcefield against these things. So I'm covered.  

 

[samurai]

I don't really believe in coincidence, everything for a reason!! You just have to work out why you bumped into that person..

as long as you have a full name, nowadays its so easy to track people,, living or dead..

In regards to the bhoot/pret/shaheedi pehra etc its really one of those things that a general topic/conversation never really gets anywhere.. There's those who have not experienced and try explaining, then you got those who experience it and do a lousy job explaining it..both groups fail.. so for me personally such convos soo irrelevant..

18 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

One thing I believe about bhoots and possessions is that they feed off fea

"jo dargaya so margaya!!!"..lol..

True man, ultimately make your self spiritually strong...simples!!

[BhagatSingh]

3 minutes ago, samurai said:

There's those who have not experienced and try explaining, then you got those who experience it and do a lousy job explaining it..both groups fail..

Haha! so true

18 hours ago, samurai said:

seems like everyone's given their two bob...to be honest i'm not really that bothered..

So just the right amount of bothered. Bothered enough to post and talk about it, but not so bothered as to be attached to the conversation.

The sweet spot

[samurai]

7 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

So just the right amount of bothered. Bothered enough to post and talk about it, but not so bothered as to be attached to the conversation.

Absolutely.. A fine balance.

[paapiman]

20 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

A lot of incorrect knowledge is common sense for sikhs.

I have given up common sense for Waheguru sense.

Gurparsaad, will make a separate topic on ancestor worship.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

On 19/4/2016 at 6:25 PM, BhagatSingh said:

For example? (Page number)

A quick example that pops to mind is his commentary on the mool mantra where he explains that Sati is the vernacular of the Sanskrit Satya.. And then he explains how many of the words in Guru Granth Sahib has to be looked from their sanskrit origins. You wrote the same here sime time back on satya.