Gurmat Havan of Sri Chandi jee

[Arsh1469]

2 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Quote the whole Pangti bro. It's in reference to specific people. 

It is on ang 1377

[Arsh1469]

IMO there is no need to make offerings to Devi Devta. This Granth is pretty mysterious and might be created by people to support there agenda. Havan may or may not be part of Sikh tradition.

[Arsh1469]

On 7/3/2021 at 11:21 PM, paapiman said:

@GurjantGnostic - The above passage talks about using meat and alcohol, as an offering to the fire to invoke the blessings of Sri Chandi jee. Have you come across this kind of stuff in any other warrior cultures?

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

As Sikh why do we need to make offerings for blessing. To get a blessing one should read bani and utter path.

On 7/8/2021 at 12:00 AM, paapiman said:

That injunction is probably for non-Nihang Singhs.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Why hold a double standard. If a Nihang does it why is it okay?

15 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I'm not aware of any. 

The only thing I know of is the havan of an ox in Bhangu's Panth Prakash. But I don't think they ate any part of the animal?

That panth parkash isn't really trustworthy. I remember reading a English translation and it says that after Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi all muslims were exiled from Sachkhand for the actions of Arungzeb.

 

[Arsh1469]

This is an old post on the form it was by Akali_Akal_Singh IMO it is the Sikh view of Havan

"Sargun Havan is not Gurmat. Gurmat says that nothing is to be worshipped except the Nirgun swarup. According to Baba Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal wale, a Gurmukh's Havan is when Gyan awakens, when the avashnas are washed with the fire of Brahmgyan. Therefore "havan" like other words is used as a metaphor.

Udasis were the real Sikh missionaries. Their job was to spread Sikhi, to attract more and more people. Therefore, in order to achieve their goals, they adopted many Sanataan practises. Of whom are the saffron bhekh, idol worship, havan etc. They did succeed. They converted many Hindus into Sehajdhari Sikhs.

However, Khalsa has been strictly advised against these practises."

[GurjantGnostic]

22 minutes ago, Arsh1469 said:

It is on ang 1377

I know bro. What I'm saying is if you read it verbatim it doesn't say what you're saying Hanji. 

And that it's best to quote Gurbani verbatim when possible especially in disagreement or controversy. 

What you've done is misquote it.

 

[dalsingh101]

8 hours ago, paapiman said:

Just one ox was used or multiple ones?

Can you please post that extract here, if you get time?

Thanks a lot

@Trimandeep Singh - The above is another reference to Havan in our literature. IMHO, it is pretty clear now that Havans (according to the Gurmat Maryada) are a part of Sikh tradition.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Just because the havan took place doesn't make it Gurmat veer ji. It took place on the eve of one of Abdali's invasions i.e. long after Guru sahibaan physically left us. 

 

We spoke about it in this thread:

 

 

The original (expunged) text of PP is here:

https://www.scribd.com/document/50691250/Bhai-Vir-Singh-s-editing-of-Panth-Prakash-by-Dr-Harinder-Singh-Chopra-Dr-Surjit-Hans

 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

Just because the havan took place doesn't make it Gurmat veer ji. It took place on the eve of one of Abdali's invasions i.e. long after Guru sahibaan physically left us. 

Bro, there are other historical references for Havan too (in addition to its references in Gurbani).

So far, we have Havan mentioned in the following Granths:

• Sri Mukat Marag Granth
• Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth
• Sri Pracheen Panth Prakash
• Sri Navneen Panth Prakash

 

@Trimandeep Singh@Arsh1469

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

8 hours ago, Arsh1469 said:

We don't need Devi Devta to connect with the supreme. To connect we must look inside of us. Vahguru is in all us. No need for offerings.

Sri Waheguru jee also resides in Devi Devte.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

8 hours ago, Arsh1469 said:

I agree. Back to the topic Guru Nanak preached not to make offering or rituals.

Even Amrit Sanchars, Akhand Paaths, Sehaj Paaths, etc, are religious rituals.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

23 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

You were saying Havan includes offering to Agni Devta who already is a devta and has all the luxuries. Why does he need our offering? 

He might desire the Paras Kala of Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

23 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

donating something or taking help from anyone doesn't increase or decrease our level/status

Correct me, if I am wrong, so you are saying that we can take help from people, including non-Sikhs, but we cannot ask for help from Devi/Devte?

Please remember that Worship of Devi/Devte is forbidden in Sikhism.

 

bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

23 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

True Sikhs, they donate or take, will always think of themselves as charan dhoor of everyone else.

That "everyone else" includes Devi/Devte. They are also an creation of Sri Waheguru jee. Sri Waheguru jee resides in them and we must respect them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

23 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Will you talk to Agni Devta or the sargun roop of Akaal Purakh himself (Sri Guru Granth Sahib)?

One needs a certain level of avastha to talk to Sri Waheguru jee directly.

Let me ask you a question. In this Granth (Sri Mukat Marag), it talks about doing Sava Lakh (or other big numbers) Jaaps of different shabads. Do you seriously think that a Gurmukh Brahamgyani like Bhai saab Bhai Randhir Singh jee or Sant Baba Nand Singh jee would need to do that much Jaap to obtain the Sidhi of those Shabads?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Bro, there are other historical references for Havan too (in addition to its references in Gurbani).

So far, we have Havan mentioned in the following Granths:

• Sri Mukat Marag Granth
• Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth
• Sri Pracheen Panth Prakash
• Sri Navneen Panth Prakash

 

@Trimandeep Singh@Arsh1469

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bro, these granths are relatively recent. Plus it only takes one old source to include the incident, and later granths replicate the information. Most of these granths probably used Bhangu's work as an inspiration. 

[paapiman]

39 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

Bro, these granths are relatively recent. Plus it only takes one old source to include the incident, and later granths replicate the information. Most of these granths probably used Bhangu's work as an inspiration. 

Daas understands your point, but the Granths have different episodes mentioned in them.

Like for example, the episode of Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee is not mentioned in Pracheen Panth Prakash right? Does he even mention Baba jee? Gyani Gyan Singh jee says that Baba jee did a Havan before the battle.

The episode of Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Snigh jee is in Pracheen Panth Prakash right? Didn't he also do a Havan before the battle with the Afghans? He definitely did Jhatka of goats before the battle.

Have you looked into Gurbilas P10 and Sri Gohaj Katha Pothi? Do they mention Havan in them?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

9 hours ago, Arsh1469 said:

As Sikh why do we need to make offerings for blessing. To get a blessing one should read bani and utter path.

Devout Sikhs are suppose to seek blessings from fellow human beings (as Sri Waheguru jee resides in them). We must do Seva of needy people, which will increase our chances of receiving blessings from them.

Even animals can probably pass their blessings to humans.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

9 hours ago, Arsh1469 said:

I remember reading a English translation and it says that after Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi all muslims were exiled from Sachkhand for the actions of Arungzeb.

It might have been a metaphor. Can you please post the verses so that we can look at them?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

18 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Daas understands your point, but the Granths have different episodes mentioned in them.

Like for example, the episode of Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee is not mentioned in Pracheen Panth Prakash right? Does he even mention Baba jee? Gyani Gyan Singh jee says that Baba jee did a Havan before the battle.

A Deep Singh is mentioned in a strange sakhi, but I don't know if this is Baba Deep Singh Shaheed?  

 

Quote

The episode of Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Snigh jee is in Pracheen Panth Prakash right? Didn't he also do a Havan before the battle with the Afghans? He definitely did Jhatka of goats before the battle.

Yes, Baba ji's shaheedi is mentioned, I can't recall anything about a havan though, but it's been years since I read it. They mention baba ji having shaheedi degh before the battle though and dressing up as bridegrooms. 

Quote

Have you looked into Gurbilas P10 and Sri Gohaj Katha Pothi? Do they mention Havan in them?

Nah, I haven't looked into it that deeply. 

 

[paapiman]

9 hours ago, Arsh1469 said:

Why hold a double standard. If a Nihang does it why is it okay?

Nihang lifestyle is different from that of ordinary Amritdhari Sikhs. They are like special forces of the Sikh Panth. They are suppose to be Chakkarvarti. Their Sundar Gutka is full of Sri Dasam Gurbanis.

They are suppose to follow a very tough lifestyle and routine. Therefore, it is possible that Maharaaj gave them permission to eat Jhatka meat (of goats) and drink Sukha.

It is also possible that Shastars will become thirsty for blood and flesh, if plenty of Sri Dasam Gurbanis are recited near them. Therefore, Jhatka is done to calm Sri Aad Shakti, which resides in those Shastars. Daas heard something similar to this point in a Katha.

 

@Trimandeep Singh

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

@paapiman

Is  Sri Gohaj Katha Pothi even available right now? 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

@paapiman

Is  Sri Gohaj Katha Pothi even available right now? 

Not sure Paaji. Someone probably has a copy of it.

Sorry about that.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Arsh1469]

8 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, there are other historical references for Havan too (in addition to its references in Gurbani).

So far, we have Havan mentioned in the following Granths:

• Sri Mukat Marag Granth
• Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth
• Sri Pracheen Panth Prakash
• Sri Navneen Panth Prakash

 

@Trimandeep Singh@Arsh1469

 

Bhul chuk maaf

If it was part of Sikhi it should be mentioned in SGGS or DGS.

[Arsh1469]

6 hours ago, paapiman said:

It might have been a metaphor. Can you please post the verses so that we can look at them?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I added another verse I also find untrustworthy

[seattlesingh]

@Arsh1469, there are so many maryadas and sanskars  not mentioned in SGGS or DGS, also just because something is mentioned in SGGS or DGS doesn't make it valid, it depends on what context the gurus mentioned particular practices in.

[Trimandeep Singh]

On 7/11/2021 at 5:07 PM, paapiman said:

Even Amrit Sanchars, Akhand Paaths, Sehaj Paaths, etc, are religious rituals.

Do you even know what you said? Amrit Sanchaars, Akhand Paaths and Sehaj Paaths are always for a purpose and above the Sato Gun. All these rituals like havan (acc to me) and all are within the three gunns. Sikh Maryada has been passed by the Gurus and can't be called mere rituals. (Don't want to talk about Havan, but overall all practices started by gurus are above three gunns)

On 7/11/2021 at 5:09 PM, paapiman said:

He might desire the Paras Kala of Gurbani.

 

Is he lazy that he can't do Paath and do praises of Vaheguru? If someone does Paath for us, then it will surely benefit but isn't it wrong that he expects us to do Paath for him?! Moreover, you are contradicting your own point. You said earlier that we need to do havan so that Agni Devta communicates our message to Vaheguru Ji.

On 7/11/2021 at 5:13 PM, paapiman said:

Correct me, if I am wrong, so you are saying that we can take help from people, including non-Sikhs, but we cannot ask for help from Devi/Devte?

Please remember that Worship of Devi/Devte is forbidden in Sikhism.

But what help are you asking them for? Though the panth is always there for us to help, but under any circumstances we can ask non Sikhs for help, but those are small favours, not 'communicating our message to Vaheguru'. 

And when did I write anything that supports worship of Devi devte?

They may help us but you are asking us to do havan, read Paath and ask the Devte to communicate our message to Vaheguru which is an insult to Guru sahib who gave us bani to have darshan of him anytime.

On 7/11/2021 at 5:16 PM, paapiman said:

That "everyone else" includes Devi/Devte. They are also an creation of Sri Waheguru jee. Sri Waheguru jee resides in them and we must respect them.

They are a creation of Vaheguru, exactly my point! They themselves don't have direct access to Vaheguru then how can they even communicate our message to him? They are not mukt and they long for this human body, as bani clearly states. We are at a better position from them to get mukt and have darshan of Vaheguru.

Do you know even Devi Lakshmi sweeps the floor at Sri Darbar Sahib? And yes, if we ever get a chance to serve the devte, then surely we will serve them some roti, yellow dal and my fav kheer... And also polish their sandals or footwear, whatever they wear... Lol

On 7/11/2021 at 5:21 PM, paapiman said:

One needs a certain level of avastha to talk to Sri Waheguru jee directly.

Let me ask you a question. In this Granth (Sri Mukat Marag), it talks about doing Sava Lakh (or other big numbers) Jaaps of different shabads. Do you seriously think that a Gurmukh Brahamgyani like Bhai saab Bhai Randhir Singh jee or Sant Baba Nand Singh jee would need to do that much Jaap to obtain the Sidhi of those Shabads?

I think that avastha does play a role but it also depends on your faith. I have no avastha but I am 100% sure that if I ask something (in line with Gurmat) to Vaheguru Ji with good intentions and true heart, I will surely get it. Ardaas is also a form of communication with Vaheguru, in fact, DIRECT communication with him.

And about those sava Lakh japs, I think your Prahlabdh karams also play a role in this. There have been people who experienced Jot vigasi avastha even before taking Amrit! So, it doesn't necessarily depend on your current avastha, but your karams too. 

Brahmgyanis like Baba Nand Singh Ji or Bhai Saab would never do japs to obtain any Ridhi sidhi. Sikhs always yearn for the darshan of Vaheguru rather than doing specific japs to obtain a Ridhi sidhi. They are just a by product of one's bhagti and a Sikh should NEVER do Paath to obtain specific ridhis sidhis.

On 7/11/2021 at 6:53 PM, paapiman said:

They are suppose to follow a very tough lifestyle and routine. Therefore, it is possible that Maharaaj gave them permission to eat Jhatka meat (of goats) and drink Sukha.

I am not saying that Sukha and jhatka are wrong, but if they were, Guru sahib would still have never allowed them to consume it, even if they follow the toughest lifestyle. Wrong is wrong and can't be justified if you do more Paath, but it may be neglected if you are sorry for it. 

 

On 7/11/2021 at 6:53 PM, paapiman said:

It is also possible that Shastars will become thirsty for blood and flesh, if plenty of Sri Dasam Gurbanis are recited near them.

I thought Dasam bani satisfied the hunger of shastars rather than making them hungrier. But I may be wrong, please try to find a pankti related to this.