America = Terrorism, true or false

[palm_w1]

attention all America bashers, please deposit comments.

seriously though, i get the feeling there are many ignorant people here who think america is a great world saviour, so lets discuss it properly. I think that america has done a lot of good, but it has also done some serious evil throughout the years. i don't think many people know of this.

I will try and post regularly my views on why america is terrorist (workload permitting).

For now, can some1 tell me why america is not terrorist.

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

Wow..LOL..

First of all, its important to establish the fact - in a democracy - president administrations are always changing about- and therefore each president stepping in the office -has his or "her" agenda - and no president in the history of America, has had the EXACT same policies as another president. Like any other country, America, the country (and American- the people) has had both good commanders-in-chief and as well as those who didn't fulfill the duties. Second of all, at the end of the day no government is perfect- there will always be those that are happy with what the government is

doing - and not doing - but its the majority that rules in a democracy. Third of all, there are some millions of people living in America, and not everyone of them is full of bad intentions... So, when you say "America is a terrorist" - you are wrong, because America is just a piece of land - where Americans live, and if you say Americans are terrorist, you are putting all eggs in one basket. (Which is not true)...

So, please clarify who you are stating as being the terrorist..

"serious evil throughout the years"

and which country's government has never done something that split the opinion of its country?

Also, here are some - definitions to ponder upon: [www.dictionary.com]

ter·ror·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)

n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

ter·ror·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trr-st)

n.

One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

adj.

Of or relating to terrorism.

I'm an American. living in America - yet I have never threatened or used force( or for that matter of a fact - violence) against other people or property, while having the intention of intimidating or coercing socities or governments.

I don't understand how am I a terrorist?

According to the literal definition, America it self cannot be a terrorist as its not a person or an organized group.

A·mer·i·ca ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-mr-k)

The United States.

also the A·mer·i·cas (-kz). The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Definition of United States : http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=United%20States

[commander]

Are you high on Sukha palm_w1 ? Governments work for the best interests of their nation/people that elect them, not for humanity. They have no obligation to the rest of the world. Thus, the USA looks out for what's best for the USA, just like any other nation on the planet. It's just that the US has a bigger boot.

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_836126,00050004.htm

Talk About Terrorism and Terrorists

[palm_w1]

yawnnnnnnnnnnn, u guys are well boring, such predictable responses. if there is anyone here who knows how to debate please step forward. not high on sukha i am afraid as the USers sprayed my crop with paraquat in their war on drugs!

i don't doubht the US tries to work in its interets although it spectacularly fails and creates way more terrorists than it kills by its restrictive policies. Also some of its self interest is of a terrorist nature in my opinion (and yes i am applying the term terrorist to nations, in the footsteps of the great Chomsky).

And no i don't class all americans as terrorists, i know some really cool americans, but the current USer regime is terrorist, a regime that u guys elected in to represent u.

also why does the USer govt have to commit terrorism to further its goals, countries like Sweden, Norway, Finlad, Icelnad etc seem to become rich industrialised nations without having to kill thousands of people.

[palm_w1]

the first terrorist action from the USer Government i will highlight is the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. It is rather ironic that the US goes around telling everybody off for having nuclear weapons blah blah blah while they are the only nation to have actually used nuclear weapons to murder. This is even more ironic when we take into account that the logic is that other regimes are to unstable to have them, once again only 1 country, the US has used them to attack.

Nagasaki and Hirsoshima were two large cities in Japan which had military encampments on the outskirts of the city. Rather than dropping conventional bombs on the military targets the USers dropped nuclear bombs on the cities, wiping out in seconds lakhs of innocent civilians. Within 3 seconds the US regime had wiped out entire families, little children at school, pregnant women and old people out for their daily walk.

I ask why did they do this? Simply to terrorise the japanese govt into surrendering. In my view this was one of the most heinious and wicked crimes committed, conciously taking the decision to murder all those people.

more US terrorism later . . . . .

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

Read below

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

The alternative would have been the extinction of Japan through conventional forces. We just didn't decide in the middle of nowhere -lets go nuke Japan ..but Japan triggered it self.

While the US is the only one to use nuclear, other nations have used chemical and biological before the us.

Those countries you mention are small socialist countries that could not even compare to the state of California. Tell me why the USA is the greatest power in the world.

Simply, the bottom line is : If America is so horrible, why are people lined up trying to get into it and people dieing to get in?

I am not going to even bother explaining any further why the US is not a terrorist, because it is like trying to explain a Hindu - that a cow is an animal or trying to explain a Christian - that Jesus was not god.

However, if you still wish to discuss- please contact me personally - because this thread will turn into nothing but a back n' forth mockery, slinging, and etc.

[Asha]

*Genocide of American Indians

*Black Slavery

*Puritanical Witch Hunts

*Genocide of African Tribes

*Theft of an Entire Country

*Murder of Hawaiians and Theft of Hawaii

*Continued Exploitation of Puerto Rico

*Severe Discrimination Against Blacks

*Severe Discrimination Against Women

*Severe Discrimination Against Asians

*Ignoring the Jewish Holocaust During WWII Until It Was Too Late

*Unconstitutional Violence and Imprisonment against Anarchists and Communists in the 1880-1920 Period

*Unconstitutional Cold War Policies against Communists

*America being the only nation in the world to drop nukes and also being the only nation to advocate using more nukes to fight "terrorism" after already using nukes to burn innocent men, women, and children to death

*Violence and Murders of Anti-War College Protestors Who Protested Vietnam

*Illegal War in Vietnam and Unconstitutional Draft of Soldiers

*Illegal War in Korea

*Illegal CIA operations in Iran, Pakistan, Guatemala, Venezuela, Colombia, and Cuba, to name a few

*Did you know that America GAVE Saddam WMD's during the Iran-Iraq War in violation of International Law and pretended to the whole time to be on Iran's side?

*Illegal Gulf War

*Did you know that America was once buddies with Bin Laden and helped the present day Taliban come to power?

*Illegal OIL (Operation Iraqi Liberation)

*Unconstitutional Rounding up of Arabs and Muslims Including American Citizens

*Reports of Torture of Illegal Prisoners

*Human Rights Violations that Top Many Third World Countries in Terms of Executing Minors and Lists of Innocents (America is one of five nations in the WORLD to still execute minors)

*I bet you didn't hear that in 2002, America led a CIA coup to attempt to overthrow Hugo Chavez in Venezuela to protect the American Oil Industry and used sniper attacks to murder innocent Venezuelan civilians by shooting them in the brains to make it look like Chavez's "side" was responsible

*I guess you didn't know that all the resources that America uses to "fight Cocaine" in Colombia is actually used to protect oil there for America

*Not only did they use Agent Orange in Vietnam, Vietnamese still suffer from it today; They are using similar chemicals to fight illegal drug wars even today in violation of international law

*Illegal War in Afghanistan

*Over 50 Years of Illegal Ties with Israel

*Over 150 Years of Human Rights Violations by Supporting American-based Child Labor, Slave-wages, and horrible health and safety worker conditions in the third world (India is also an American victim). America is notorious for supporting such horrible labour around the world for its own profit

*Illegal Surveillance via NASA's Sattellite system of other nations

*Over 9,000 Civilians have been murdered in Iraq and Afghanistan as a result of Bush's Illegal "War On Terrorism"

*Over 10 Years of an Illegal Embargo against Iraq, America is responsible for up to a MILLION Iraqi civilian deaths due to blocking imports of food and medicine

*Numerous Reports that America Lied About What Really Happened on 9/11, including that it allowed a secret plane go to Saudi Arabia even though other planes were grounded

*Discrimination against Homosexuals that has now been abolished in about half of the world

*America contains more than 25% of the World's wealth

*America is the world's worst country for foreign aid donations based on a proportion of its wealth

*America is responsible for more than 25% of the world's environmental destruction

[Asha]

Japan killed 2,000 American soldiers at Pearl Harbor and America turns around and kills over 150,000 civilians in two major Japanese cities. I also forgot to mention how America victimized Japanese-American citizens by taking their land, taking their belongings, and shoving them into concentration camps. Roosevelt waited far too long to respond to Hitler's aggression and oppression and then finally when America got an extra pea added to its pea-brain and did something, it later turned around and treated the Japanese like animals.

[palm_w1]

thanks for the post Asha, a real eye opener, i never knew of some of the stuff listed. I will expand on some of your points later. And yes it was true that the USer Govt took innocent American citizens of Japanese decent and through them into concentration camps.

The alternative would have been the extinction of Japan through conventional forces.

why the extinction of japan, would they have killed civilians as well? worrying

While the US is the only one to use nuclear, other nations have used chemical and biological before the us.

i guess that makes it ok

Tell me why the USA is the greatest power in the world.

because they have a bigger military arsenal than any nation in the world and do actually use its military machine to attack other nations. Hence it is the greatest power in the world, quite easy to follow really. Just biggest it is the biggest power doesn't necessarily make it morally right.

Simply, the bottom line is : If America is so horrible, why are people lined up trying to get into it and people dieing to get in?

errrr, let me think, money and standard of living. You get massive immigration attempts from developing countries, you don't neccesarily get such huge population movements from developed countries.

I am not going to even bother explaining any further why the US is not a terrorist, because it is like trying to explain a Hindu - that a cow is an animal or trying to explain a Christian - that Jesus was not god.

perhaps it is because it is a futile excercise in defending the indefensible

However, if you still wish to discuss- please contact me personally - because this thread will turn into nothing but a back n' forth mockery, slinging, and etc.

no thanks, the reason i set this thread up is so that people can see the truth, not for it to be hidden away in private.

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

no thanks, the reason i set this thread up is so that people can see the truth, not for it to be hidden away in private.

I doubt anyone will change their opinions of America based on some hater's spin on the facts.

First of all - you all need to establish your definition of the word terrorism.

The most obvious and the simple difference is ..

Terrorism is group of radicals that want discord, terrorists want chaos ..where as US forces want order after they fight.

Quickly skimming through Asha's post..its funny all you folks do is point fingers at America..when through out history ..countries like Germany, Russia, and France have been SO INNOCENT. It is also ..funny..how most of "U.S. - Haters" will bring up points like US supportin' right wings in SA - yet - don't bytch about Soviets ..supportin left-wing.

*America is the world's worst country for foreign aid donations based on a proportion of its wealth

And..when does ANYONE..ever help America?? NEVER !!! America has paid uncountable millions of dollars helping other countries rebuild after wars..!! America is the first and sometimes ONLY country that comes to other countries aid in time of disaster..!! Ex: France in WW2 - And, also We were helping restore England, France, Germany and Japan all at the same time..!

*Discrimination against Homosexuals that has now been abolished in about half of the world

The issue of marriage is not even a federly based issue. - We are full of discrimination..and infact that's why the state of Massachusetts allows gay marriages. Also, where else would homosexuals feel safe to speak out (esp. when the "majority" is against them)

*Reports of Torture of Illegal Prisoners

Oh, so you must justify that the beheadings of civilians as an alternative.

Over 9,000 Civilians have been murdered in Iraq and Afghanistan as a result of Bush's Illegal "War On Terrorism"

Um...the number that died under Saddam averaged 20,000 a year ..- about that .-and that was perfectly OKAY..Infact, it was even much better when ..150,000+ Kurds died under him..

*Numerous Reports that America Lied About What Really Happened on 9/11, including that it allowed a secret plane go to Saudi Arabia even though other planes were grounded

Oh ..you seem to be caught up in Michael Moore's propaganda who is nothing but a Lard ass Communist who is making a fortune off of Libs who suck up his Commie bullshit. On a talk show yesterday, He said during an off air moment while interviewing Michae Moore said that he had just laid off his assistant and secretary because he "had nothing for them to do". So tell me why is it ok for Moore to lay people off when work is slow but he railed corporations for doing the same thing?

Not only did they use Agent Orange in Vietnam, Vietnamese still suffer from it today; They are using similar chemicals to fight illegal drug wars even today in violation of international law

If memory serves me right, at the time it was used - it wos not in violation of the international law. Today, we have defoliants of Agent Orange - which are OK.

Did you see the bodies in the desert unearthed in the south, did you see the gased victims in the kurdish areas, wake up no governments are ideal but ours is a damn site better than most others!!

Iraq was an unfinished war...saddam had 17 chances to comply with the cease fire agreement but he refused 17 times---You prolly agree, Clinton was a hero ..when Clinton was a admin cut asshole for 8 years..!! His legacy is cum stains on a blue dress and lots of dead Americans because he let Osama go free when Jordan offered him on a platter

On an end note, this is my last and my very last post in regards to the mainstream propaganda.....I am not changing my opinion on based on some hater's spin on the facts.

[Jamuka]

Japan killed 2,000 American soldiers at Pearl Harbor and America turns around and kills over 150,000 civilians in two major Japanese cities.

Do you have even an iota of knowledge of what it was to live under imperialist Japenese rule? Do you know how cruel were the Japenese? Do you know that the Japenese would make their prisoners dig their own graves before excuting them by beheading? Have you heard of the Nanking massacres and others in countries like Korea and the entire South East Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore)? They made the holocaust look like a walk in the park.

If not for the Americans these countries to this day would be living under harsh imperialistic Japanese rule. BTW the Americans at first tried getting the Japanese to surrender but they refused. American GI's were being shot at by regular civilians, not even the imperial army. This is wehn the Americans had enough and dropped the two atomic bombs. If you ask me for good measure, a third one should have been dropped as well.

BTW about the alleged Abu Ghraib prisoner scandal...

Iraqi Abuse Victim: I Want to Live in America

He claims the torture he suffered at the hands of his American military jailers at Baghdad's al Ghraib prison was unspeakably brutal, unconscionably inhumane; so incredibly humiliating that he cannot think of moving back to his old neighborhood in Nasiriya.

So instead, Hayder Sabbar Abd says he may be forced to relocate to an entirely new country - none other than the homeland of his torturers, the good old USA.

Mr. Abd alleges that in Nov. 2003, U.S. jail guards beat him, stripped him naked, forced him to pile on top of other naked inmates, then posed him in positions to simulate oral sex.

It was a nightly ritual that began after a prison riot in which he participated. Then, inexplicably, the excruciating torture sessions stopped.

While some of his fellow Iraqis grouse that they preferred life under Saddam Hussein, Abd says that America should "pay compensation" to the prison torture victims.

"He said he felt he needed to move out of Iraq," reported the New York Times on Wednesday. "Despite it all, he said he would not refuse an offer to move to America."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/5/212154.shtml

On an end note, this is my last and my very last post in regards to the mainstream propaganda.....I am not changing my opinion on based on some hater's spin on the facts.

Don't take these nut cases seriously. Their numbers are dwindling as more and more people's eyes are opening to the truth about Islam. BTW did anybody hear about the latest decapitation by members of the religion of peace ; Paul Johnsons decapitation?

[Beast]

Do you have even an iota of knowledge of what it was to live under imperialist Japenese rule? Do you know how cruel were the Japenese? Do you know that the Japenese would make their prisoners dig their own graves before excuting them by beheading? Have you heard of the Nanking massacres and others in countries like Korea and the entire South East Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore)? They made the holocaust look like a walk in the park.

So via the bombings the Americans were actually doing Japanese people a favour by killing 150,000 of their citizens?

BTW the Americans at first tried getting the Japanese to surrender but they refused. American GI's were being shot at by regular civilians, not even the imperial army. This is wehn the Americans had enough and dropped the two atomic bombs. If you ask me for good measure, a third one should have been dropped as well.

So the same repressed people that the US was trying to save were also the same ones shooting at the US? And did the USA use atomic bombs because its soldiers got shot dead by some trigger-happy Japanese citizens? :shock:

A third bomb??? You're a sick, twisted individual. A statement like that shows how inhuman you are. Go and play with apes and monkeys Jamuka, they are more at your level...that was a sick statement.

(By the way, when we define ourselves as being Sikh a good standard bearer for us to use is to ask ourselves whether the Gurus would approve of our actions. Could you see Guru Gobind Singh Ji approving your wish to drop a third bomb 'for good measure'? I just hope that you said that in the heat of the moment, coz it was sick)

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

Go and play with apes and monkeys Jamuka, they are more at your level...that was a sick statement.

That was a sick statement too...I'm calling the SPCA :twisted: :evil:

[guv]

i will write a longer reply to this thread when i have some time... but i just wanted to mention this...

This is wehn the Americans had enough and dropped the two atomic bombs. If you ask me for good measure, a third one should have been dropped as well.

that is probably the most disgusting thing i've read, anywhere... ever. it's beyond inhumane... it's demonic!

jamuka, from your posts, u seem like an fairly intelligent person, but your last comment was just sick.

[Sukhi]

not to totally destroy ur argument, but i'm pretty sure that every nation in the world is guilty of doing similar things and still have civlians who believe that their country is the best. so why aren't we discussing them? why is everyone so focused on the U.S.? this thread seems pretty pointless...

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

Ok, so here's my two bits:

Bambookat raised a question about why is the US the greatest power in the world: the answer is they are financially much better off than the rest of the world, why is that, because their businesses go into third world counteries pay the ppl their below avg wages, make them work in sweatshop conditions so that they can make a 200x+ profit on it.... that's why....

How can one support such a country when they blatantly have disregarded human rights in other counteries for employees. The US has never paid their portion for the running of the UN, however they still are one of the 5 with the veto rights... does that make any sense....

You can argue that there are leaders out their that have killed more and have done far worse atrocities, but looking at their size power and overall influence in the world those counteries are not a superpower.... ppl disregard them anyways....

One would think that being in the constant spotlight and having such power that the USA would constructively work towards peace and helping others out, however they don't and instead stoop to the level of the other counteries and committ the same crime if not worse...

Americans probably feel that the treatment of the prisoners of war in Iraq has been blown out of proportion or that Japan has committed more serious POW crimes in past history.... that was past history, and everyone back then treated the POW crappily... we are living in the 21st century here, basic human rights are guaranteed.... How can ppl excuse such behaviour, how can americans consider themselves role models after this....???????

[palm_w1]

wow, what an eventful day.

I doubt anyone will change their opinions of America based on some hater's spin on the facts.

boombaklat, there is no spin, it is all fact, if u can disprove what i say go for it.

Terrorism is group of radicals that want discord' date=' terrorists want chaos ..where as US forces want order after they fight.[/quote']

terrorists don't want chaos, they tend to want to influence regimes, people who want chaos are called anarchists.

[palm_w1]

The second point post i will make regarding American atrocities is the Massacre at My Lai, a small village in vietnam, carried out by American GI troops in 1968.

In 3 hours the US soldiers rounded up 500 civilians and murdered them all in cold blood. The villages' young men had left to work in the fields, leaving old men, women and children, all unarmed. Some they raped, others who surrendered where shot dead with their hands held high, even babies were clubbed to death by the US army.

Lt Calley was the only soldier out of the 120 USers who carried out the evil terrorism who was convicted of a crime. He was sentenced to life imprisonment but Nixon rewarded him for the attempted genocide by releasing him after 3 days in prison. Perhaps Nixon supported the actions of his troops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/...mylai/64344.stm

Article about the massacre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/...mylai/64640.stm

the cover up and attempt by the USers to stop the world knowing the truth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/...mylai/65065.stm

the whitewash, where all the murderers were quietly sent home by the US and the charges dropped on grounds like: 'they have left the army so cannot be prosecuted' etc etc.

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/mylai.htm

May the memories of the victims of this US massacre never be forgotten. I pray for all those who were murdered by the USers but whose cases have never come to public attention. Only Waheguru knows how many other 'My Lai's' the Users committed, i think many more massacres were carried out but covered up.

[Asha]

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

LOL - Shiatz..I am sorry ..but I don't have time to read all them posts right now..I will later though..

But for noww, RIGHT NOW - IN THIS YEAR, and MONTH ..(so forth )...which government is ideal...and what country is "ideal?"

Don't you even dare say Canada.

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

LOL - Shiatz..I am sorry ..but I don't have time to read all them posts right now..I will later though..

But for noww, RIGHT NOW - IN THIS YEAR, and MONTH ..(so forth )...which government is ideal...and what country is "ideal?"

Don't you even dare say Canada.

Got couple more seconds.....

In regards to homosexuality, the president or the leaders of this nation have the right to their opinions based on human ethics and morals/values.

If homosexuality was such an "outrage" in America, you wouldn't see Women walking hand-in-hand in downtown Boston ( or anywhere else for that matter fact)..In fact, homosexuals are always given their right (..to the press, and to speak) ...of their views. (If you lived in the US, you would know there are only some times 100s or thousands lined up on streets in support of gay marriages/affairs/etc.)..Are homosexuals not given the same right as every other individual in this nation? ..(except 1 - the right to marriage in most states- hell thats even beginning -the stae of Massachusetts is only the step to one of the ladders, --and also its kind of given in a democractic government- majority rules and decides ...Also, if homosexuals wern't allowed in the US, you certainly would not see Gay Straight Alliances in your public schools, which are to an extent funded federally! If the Pope in Vatican City - is speaking against gay marriages- doesn't it also make it right for Pres. Bush to speak his opinion? - ....

the countries u mention, i do agree they have carried out crimes too but this is well documented already, american evil is kept hidden by a biased media so i highlight it to increase peoples understanding.

Ahhh No...Its just that your favorite thing to do is Bash America..and naam-jap on the name of America every 2 secs..and yet say the country is horrible and sound like that it should be wiped out ....Perhaps, go write books/volumes...and reveal the so called American Evil....and bring about the so called American Evil awareness in larger numbers........you sitting here on Sikhwareness ..isn't gonna do anything MAJOR..especially where more than half of the people aren't even part taking in this dicussion..

In regards to Canadian Jatti - for a quick second.- and you are telling me the United States is the only one receiving products that have the labels ..such as "Made In China" - " Made in India" - "Made in Indonesia" ..and etc.....In fact, the foreign labor workforce for Canada is higher than America..Will add few more points lata..

Will continue adding

Hence I did quote Asha...I never said you were in support of the beheadings..but everyone has a hallelujah over the abuse scandal..and no one is raging about how sick,disugsting, and demonic the beheadings were...Or is it 'cause they were Americans :roll:

Quote:

*Reports of Torture of Illegal Prisoners

Oh, so you must justify that the beheadings of civilians as an alternative

No it wasn't ok but that doesn't make americas murdering anymore better, basically what ur saying is, "yes we are murdering civilians but it is less than saddam did so it is ok". Get real.

..and what are you saying - You'd rather have Saddham in power..gassing and killing 20K+ a year - and still have the Iraqi people without a hope of freedom.

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

76,000 American and Filipino prisoners of war were bound, beaten, or killed by their Japanese captors. Some were bayoneted when they fell from exhaustion. Some were forced to dig their own graves and were buried alive. Only 56,000 prisoners reached camp alive. Thousands of them later died from malnutrition and disease.

[source: Some geocities.com site]

Somehow, is this out of history??

[Beast]

Hence I did quote Asha...I never said you were in support of the beheadings..but everyone has a hallelujah over the abuse scandal..and no one is raging about how sick,disugsting, and demonic the beheadings were...Or is it 'cause they were Americans

Actually, we did have a rage about the beheadings. This was when Hari urged everyone not to view the video out of respect for the guy's life.

and what are you saying - You'd rather have Saddham in power..gassing and killing 20K+ a year - and still have the Iraqi people without a hope of freedom.

lol - we spoke abt this yesterday and I corrected you then.

Its just that your favorite thing to do is Bash America..and naam-jap on the name of America every 2 secs..

Fact: America's foreign policies towards the rest of the world leave a lot to be desired. (eg Kyoto protocol - and I spelt it right!)

Rupy, its not fair to justify American attitudes by saying: "oh, well we killed less people than Saddam Hussein did". That is an admittance of choosing the lesser of two evils. Relate this to Sikhi: is choosing the lesser of two evils (ie killing fewer innocent people than your predecessor) right? Another point - Saddam was evil and wanted to kill them right? Well, the USA is supposed to be liberating Iraq, so why is it killing innocent victims. The British are a presence in Iraq as well, how many innocent civilians have they killed compared to the USA? I wouldn't be surprised if most British deaths in Iraq were due to American 'friendly fire'!!

Also, how many times in history have the USA (secretly or not*) contributed to governments being overthrown?

I can think of Saddam Hussein himself, Afghanistan, Panama (?), and many attempts at Cuba.

* revealed secrets of the CIA due to 25yr release thing of papers

Oh yeah, I remember the story of how the USA broke the sound barrier. They were collaborating very closely with the British in the years leading up to the historic event. There was meant to be an open exchange of ideas (common in the scientific world). The US 'borrowed' some extremely vital technology from Britain and then legged it! Very dignified indeed!