STOP FIGHTING

[GanM]

I have decided to write this message for the nihangs and nihang shagirds. Don't say I never told you.

I wish to appeal to you guys to stop thinking in terms of violence. It's great that you're upholding Sikh traditions, for the sake of history and so these things are never forgotten. But please stop the weapons hankering.

Weapons are really ugly, horrible things. Look at a tegha. Imagine what that could do to you or a loved one. Imagine the horrific wounds that can be inflicted by tiger claws and other such things. Please don't bring back the 17th century. Leave the weapons at home, or better yet, in the museum for all to admire them. These are gruesome vicious things that belong in the past. Those things were extremely effective at what they did. They even hurt the psyche of the Sikh people, which resonates down to today and which was not helped by 1984 and subsequent events. Weapons are a FALSE god. They only ever served man and his political ambitions.

Weapons bring bad things about. Don't carry blades and stuff around with you. If you're being threatened or something, let someone responsible know. Or else you can post the problem here on SikhAwareness, and listen to some suggestions to resolve matters peacefully. I promise to try to help resolve such problems by offering peaceable and lawful solutions.

I SAY, from this corner of the networks, NO MORE FIGHTING.

EVERYONE (Sikhs and everyone else) stop fighting.

NO MORE WAR.

[Guest]

as we say in derby POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFTA

jokes

[GanM]

Akali, please stay on topic.

Perhaps you posted your personal ad here by mistake?

[Guest]

ok yeh, now from wa i no yeh the KALKI AVTAR is to return to signal the end of KAlyug, will he/she have an AK47 or a Shastar, but wa i realy trying to say is that talking about weapons learning the vidiya is all bout keepin sikhism alive, truthfully the world isnt happy go chappy as a lot of people think.

ps on a slighter note, wa made u think of this topic, was it rakash n his wanting to kll some one or jus something colpetly different.

see ya in da mooooring

[GanM]

I'm starting to have trouble understanding you. No offense, but your grammar and spelling are atrocious. Oh well. At least it proves that you're not a POOFTA.

I thought of this topic not because of Rakash only, but because I'm concerned that people are losing their basic humanity, in spite of their home-made religions and self-serving doctrines (which basically tell them "do as your fathers did"). Basically, a child can be born in Canada in, say, 1986, and depending on who their parents' ancestors were they end up hating their Muslim or Sikh or Jewish or Hindu neighbours, and keeping centuries-old feuds alive in the name of tradition.

They forget that for all of them, their happiest times were when they felt most safe. Therefore they start threatening each other and building/keeping weapons. Everyone starts to feel unsafe, then the learned mechanisms for perpetuating the enmity (say, for instance, the old folks' way of using a harvesting tool to disembowel the foreigner) come back with a vengeance.

Carrying a weapon (and a basic knowledge of how to use it) means you have the power of life and death over someone else (unarmed) within range of your weapon.

All I'm saying is:

YOU DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT.

If you do, then your neighbour will try to neutralise your weapon with a weapon of his own. This will escalate the situation and create a relationship of mistrust.

It takes an incredibly brave person to trust a stranger who can kill them in an instant. You can count on that bravery from someone like me (and write it off as lunacy), but not from most other people these days. You're asking for fearlessness, from Joe Public who is terrified of anyone with a kukhri in their belt. It's not realistic. That's the problem with your old-school maryada. The weapons.

Drop your "tools" and start talking to the people who hate you as well as the people who depend on you (there is a difference between love and dependence).

[Guest]

ok then. i no i aint a good typer n my gramma is shite but "y ya cuss man y"

i keep a lot of shastar, all around the house style n i carry some, not because of i want people to be afraid of me (n for people that have met me, most of you lot think i'm a joker, dnt ya) :shock: , i wear/carry these weapons to keep my spirit alive, spirit of the khalsa worrior, n am pretty sure Guru Gobind Singh Ji said u have to keep 5 weapons Punj Shastar Ki Rehit,

hatred will neva stop, u cnt stop it unless u are like a higher power which i prosume no one is each faith or nation has its bad apples, n its my theory that as sikhs, its our duty to protect the other n deal wid these bad apples in which ever way deemed necessary(sp).

we live in a some fuked up society these days n i can only hope for some big mahabharat like war in which that i may use my weapons eeeh well its onli a wish lets not flip about it.

[Hari]

I have decided to write this message for the nihangs and nihang shagirds.

Who do you actually mean by "Nihangs" and "Nihang shagirds"?Specifically who are you refering to?Shastarvidiya Gurdev Nihang Niddar Singh and his students?If so, then I highly recommend you actually visit him in person and discuss your views on violence with him.

[Guest]

wiplash, ouchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[GanM]

Who do you actually mean by "Nihangs" and "Nihang shagirds"?Specifically who are you refering to?Shastarvidiya Gurdev Nihang Niddar Singh and his students?If so, then I highly recommend you actually visit him in person and discuss your views on violence with him.

I meant for all who consider themselves Sikh warriors and who carry weapons.

I believe that your Shastarvidya Gurdev is doing much more harm than good. I would meet with him and discuss it, if I thought that actually proving him wrong would make him stop teaching his skills altogether. But it's likely he will carry on regardless. Because his skills are what he does best. He wants to preserve them, and I want them to disappear forever. Play-acting a la SCA or HACA would be preferable.

The evidence for the harm he creates are his students. You will see a lot of problems in a couple of years, and GanM will be here saying "I told you so". He nurtures bad seedlings, which are often hydro and not bio (e.g. Rakash).

[Guest]

yo listen up yeh, rakash aint bad u jus got some stupid thing goin on about him wanting to kill ppl, thats his chioce it aint good u sayi things like that man, how does he nuture bad seedling, rakash aint been to more than 3 of niddars lesson.

way to many pacifists in this place.

[palm_w1]

GanM u seem to have a very rose tinted view of the world. it is a fact that there are violent people in all socieites and weapons are needed not just for offensive purposes but also defensive purposes.

[Hari]

I would meet with him and discuss it, if I thought that actually proving him wrong would make him stop teaching his skills altogether. But it's likely he will carry on regardless.

How do you know that, without actually meeting him?You want to stop him right?Go to it.Where is your Shakti?Where is She?

Jai Shakti Mai!!

[Hari]

Sikh of Satguru Nanak Devan Dev should learn self defence.It's a must.Key phrase: self defence.It's been said before, but only an idiot goes around seeking to create violence.

What are you going to do when that idiot or idiots cause trouble with you?When you are minding your own business, eh?Try to negotiate with them??

[Rakash Singh]

yo ganm u really disappoint me man. Guru Gobind Singh praised shastar and called them His "peer". and you..... want them to disappear.

WTF? do u consider ureself a Sikh of the Guru?

by the way we who keep shastar, aint stark raving mad, we hope we never have to use them, but are prepared to use them and use them efficiently when needed. any warrior would tell you his greatest wish (other than to merge with Maha Akaal) is to die fighting.

ive hard a different upbringing to you and mine hasn't been so rosy, but that doesn't mean ive lost my compassion, far from that.

[HeyDudesWassup]

Some people take a few classes of shaster vidya and start to think they are warriors. :roll:

Real warriors conquer their own mind before anythggn else.

Look at Roy Jones (got his ass KTFO), I thought the first KO would have taught him humilty but it didn't.

[Beast]

u only know him thro the web or through second hand information

...therefore shut the admin cut up

Mod's Note: Please if you cant take criticism then its better not to let the rage out.

[Rakash Singh]

ive done other martial arts before shastar vidiya... few years of karate, boxing and muay thai. im trying like everyone else to conquer my mind.

[GanM]

Rakash, conquering your mind is extremely tough for all of us. I wish you could do it in a way that does'nt involve hurting people. Better yet, perhaps you could ask yourself the tough question: why are your endeavours to conquer your mind all related to violence and the desire to harm people? Or go the extra hog, and ask whether you could be a non-warrior who practises Muay Thai, boxing, etc. for sport and exercise? Is that possible? Can you win a Muay Thai match without desiring to hurt your opponent? And is that desire a help or hindrance in conquering your mind? YOU are in the best position to answer this (to yourself, not us).

I am satisfied that your fighting arts are bad for you and bad for the entire world. You are merely normalising a DEVIANT behaviour (the desire to inflict injury). Just because society accepts it, it does'nt mean that it's right. Why act like a tiger, when you a man? You are BETTER than a tiger, because you can choose to override your instincts. You can think for yourself, and decide what you want to be. If you died by accident right now, what would you be reborn as? What shape have you made your consciousness take? Think about it. This is your human life, not to be wasted.

I don't know where this rosy upbringing thing comes from. Why are you blaming your environment for the way you have YOURSELF shaped your consciousness?? I thought YOU were in charge of your mind (or you want to be)!! Or should I be addressing your weapon?

You stated that your weapons are your "peer". OK, but all I'm saying is that that is YOUR choice. YOU decided to take Guru Gobind Singh's poetry as a rule to live your life, 300 years after. It's your decision to place bits of metal ABOVE your own position as a human or demonic life form. It does'nt seem rational to me, but it's your life and you have to live with the consequences of that choice.

I urge you, for your sake and mine and for everyone who is too proud to say it's for their sake, to follow another path. You've written off every human being "peer" without proper investigation and research, and made an instrument of death your spiritual teacher. If weapons are your peer, you have GIVEN UP the idea of mastery over them. How does that fit in with such things like making weapons and practising techniques? These are man-made devices made in the WORST possible spirit. The spirit of wanting to inflict harm/hurt/injury/death. If I saw a peer who advocated that doctrine, I would warn his students against him.

Akali Sodhi, you say that you keep weapons in order to keep the khalsa spirit alive. I'm sure you are tough enough without those things, so just leave them somewhere. If the khalsa spirit cannot persist where there are no weapons, let this khalsa spirit go, because it sounds no good. Your bravery comes from YOU, not from the tools. You've got to understand, it's just metal. The "khalsa spirit" you refer to is a symptom of dependency upon a mundane material object. Your OWN spirit is much tougher than steel. If you lost the weapons, would you wet yourself in a fight? I don't think you would. Why do you say the khalsa spirit is outside you, in a thing like a knife or sword? I can't understand why you would try to mislead me like that. Surely the khalsa spirit is inside you, and not outside?

Palm_w1, it's true that there are violent people in all societies. This is more a symptom of the times than a universal truth. For instance, if the New World had not been "discovered", there would be no black-on-black violence in suburban American ghettos. If you look at things in context, you will see that violence is totally unnecessary. Furthermore, YOU are in charge. If YOU will it, the violence can stop. All of the violence can be driven out, if we love ourselves. Anticipating that the other guy will be violent, and then preparing for it by carrying weapons, is a step too far. There cannot be love, unless there is TRUST. Trust, without any good reason. That's strength. Someone has to be first to disarm. Who will it be?

Hari, addictions are hard to break. It's possible to become addicted to the FALSE persona that one can assume, under the shelter and eaves provided by weapons. I do not believe that NNS is willing to emerge from the illusion of protection afforded by religious constructs. I listened carefully to his BBC radio interview, and I read the MAI mag article. I am truly astonished that he has become so vulnerable to political attacks that are so clearly telegraphed. It's easy to misquote and undermine him, thanks to his OWN words. One day, there may be a govt in the UK that decides to charge him with inciting terrorism or something, if there is any sort of outcry against Sikhs. I can help him personally, but I don't know whether he already knows better and simply does'nt care about the consequences of preserving the vidya at this time. The gist from the website is that he is absolutely determined to preserve the gruesome violent "science" in people, not books or museums. "Awareness" is what's needed. Why should he listen to me?? He trusts me so much he will not talk to me (a harmless nobody) unless he is tooled up to the teeth.

The point about self-defence has been made a number of times. I will keep my word and try to make peace where I can. The offer's open. I could try to mediate/propose solutions. In the meantime, self-defence is not a reasonable excuse for carrying dedicated weapons. Nobody else is doing it apart from the bad guys (crims) and Babylon. You are expected to practise self-defense ALWAYS by avoiding pubs and clubs at closing time, and running like hell. Your testicles will not drop off. See the BIGGER PICTURE than a drunken ruckus.

[sukhsingh]

without shastars, one can be dragged by the ear around anywhere - a paraphrased quote of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj

"bina shastarn keshan maran baihd jaanoo" - "without shastars and kesh, one is but a goat" - guru gobind singh ji maharaj

[GanM]

If you were living under a brutally oppressive Moghul dictator, being dragged around by the ear could have happened to you whether you had a shastar or not.

Guru Gobind Singh was an insurgent/guerrilla fighter. He used information and propaganda extremely adeptly (much as Sikhs and other groups continue to do to this day). The quote you cited is an example of his skill at information warfare, and his amazing ability to inspire loyalty, trust and bravery in the face of an overwhelming threat. He was from a different, much more violent and intense, time and age. Let's keep his works in the museums/places where they can be easily referred to for the purposes of historical research. They do NOT apply to today's world. We've moved on from being lions, tigers, goats, horses, donkeys, etc.

As I said before, if you believe ANYONE is going to drag you ANYWHERE by the ear, discuss it with me first before tooling up. These days there are laws, which can be made to protect you. And having the shastar won't protect you, if a government official wants to haul you away by the ear.

[commander]

I have decided to write this message for the nihangs and nihang shagirds. Don't say I never told you.

OK

I wish to appeal to you guys to stop thinking in terms of violence. It's great that you're upholding Sikh traditions' date=' for the sake of history and so these things are never forgotten. But please stop the weapons hankering.[/quote']

Weapons are tools that serve a purpose.

[GanM]

OK

Sounds very civilised. Can you describe the "purpose" to me? To rend/tear/eviscerate/puncture/maim/kill?

They're nothing compared to biological and atomic weapons.

You are wrong. They are something very damaging to the human body, refined over many thousands of years.

Please don't bring back the 17th century.

What, you think we have a time machine?

[Beast]

u only know him thro the web or through second hand information

...therefore shut the (admin-cut) up

Mod's Note: Please if you cant take criticism then its better not to let the rage out.

he has admitted in the past that his knowledge is based on the multimedia section of the Shastarvidiya website only. Therefore his criticism of the art is unjustified and hence I was correct in telling him to shut the admin cut up. Period.

[Rakash Singh]

You want to talk about modern day times? The riots of 1984 in Panjab and Dehli. People in my family have becomes shaheeds and been murdered in Panjab due to the violence. What would you propose these people under oppression do? and all the other people in the world?

You see shastar as instruments of death.

I see them as Instruments of Truth, Justice, Freedom. These things you can not take away. They are in that sence instruments of beauty.

Your doctorine not change my thinking. Its like trying to preach Islam to me. Just is not happening. lol. Have you ever read Chaupai Sahib? Do you know what it means and says?

You misunderstand me. Are you from the U.K? We can meet up and have a nice long conversation over some coffee or something, well protein shake in my case. lol

[sikh_fauge]

A true warrior fights against his mind on a daily basis and becomes victorious!

Im not implying im one of those blessed souls, but as a point, i lived in a pretty rough area all my life (much more rougher than derby 8) ) and i never had any problems from any thugs..any criminals..etc etc.

However, in hindsight, i wish i had learnt a martial art for self defence..JUST incase.

I think its mere stupitidy to say we should shun violence in the age of kalyug. Avoiding it is one thing..but trying to pretend it doesnt exist or saying it should never be resorted to is ridiculous. I think its sickening a man would rather watch his family be beaten and raped just for the sake of avoiding violence..being a witness to such acts is a sin in itself. I guess thats why the gurus mocked the jains and brahmins (and where we as sikhs, hopefully beg to differ.)

Similarly, i think its immoral to use relegious war (which was justified at the time) to feed our vices. Too many "relegious" people hide behind their relegious garms, only to feed their vices.

I think its a personal battle only the said person can answer for themselves, and ultimately fight themselves. If ones intentions are pure, then there is nothing wrong with learning the art of shastar vidiya, or any art of combat for that matter. If its to feed any of the vices..i.e. anger..ego,etc..then it should be avoided.

GanM i agree with some of your views..but i think its too simplistic to apply in todays day and age. Violence isnt a good thing..the gurus never said this. Im not certainly not saying this. However, it exists. We shouldnt embrace it, rather we should learn how to use it as an effective means of protection.

And your point regarding the kirpan..the kirpan IS beautiful..it is one of countless gifts the guru gave to his disciples..nothing more nothing less. Please dont lesssen the worth of these priceless gifts with your insensitive views (in some parts.) I dont particularly have a thing for long hair or keeping everything natural i.e. not cutting my toe nails or not cutting the grass in the garden..but this doesnt lessen the love or meaning the kesh has for me, as a sikh. Similarly those who love the guru sincerely will take all of his gifts as tokens of love..your posts disrespecting the kirpan, a gift which he bestowed on us mortals (one of five physical gifts), is rather offensive..and its sad youve confused the virtue of compassion with non violence..my dear friend, you may not be one to carry medieval daggers..and practise martial arts..but your approach to the sentiments of other human beings is poor..you may not cut the flesh of living creatures..but brother, your words have pierced my soul. Whats worse? I think rather than trying to mould the conscience of other people..we all need to self reflect. This is where the modern relegious man is failing..he preaches and preaches..but he hasnt realised the truth for himself (this applies to everyone including me, who likes to think they have the answers!)